helicopper

If the chief is not entering a hazardous environment, does he really need to wear complete PPE? I understand what you're saying about setting an example but the chief can set a better example by instructing his subordinates to wear the required PPE for the environment they're working in and assigning a Safety Officer to make sure they do. If the chief is going to enter a fire building or hazardous area he should absolutely be wearing the right PPE!

SteveShyrock wrote: I contacted a few attorneys that I work with who have access to westlaw and other sources of case law information. Short & sweet they told me was that if the operator of an emergency vehicle is operating with lights & sirens they are held to a higher duty of care as we are considered professionals and therefore we owe the public a higher duty of care. As for crossing the double yellow line I was advised by these attorneys, one of which who does a lot of defense work for ambulance companies (I am insurance adjuster) said that there was case law in NYS from sometime in the 1980s where the courts determined that there is no reason, based on the law that the public must pull to the right & yield to the emergency vehicle, for any emergency vehicle to cross the double yellow line. He also added that the way the court decisions have gone over the past 20 years or so that driving on the wrong side of the double yellow line is being placed in the same category as passing a school bus with flashing red lights. It is definitely true that we are held to a higher standard when operating with lights and siren or when exercising some of the other privileges granted us during emergency operations. Please post the citations about the case law you reference when you get them. I'll find them most useful as I'm sure many other EMTBravo members will! Thanks and happy holidays! Chris

Section 375-41 of the VTL permits a fire vehicle to use red and/or white revolving, flashing, or oscillating lights when returning from an alarm. It does not require it nor does it grant permission to use a siren for this purpose. I can understand using some rear-facing flashing lights on fire apparatus for safety during a return to quarters, and certainly when backing into a station from a roadway, but using a siren for the return??? (Well, maybe if dinners getting cold!)

Let me start out by saying that I am a staunch supporter of air ambulance operations and believe they play a vital role in the EMS system! However, they come at a significant cost at a time when the healthcare industry is under tremendous financial pressure and the operation of an aircraft is more risky than a ground vehicle - there was just another crash of a medevac ship on the left coast on Monday. So, I ask the question - are we properly utilizing this important asset? There was a recent MVA in a local community where ground BLS and ALS responded and a medevac aircraft was requested. BLS left the scene with the victim (and ALS aboard if my info is correct) at 12:00 (times changed to protect everyone's privacy and avoid issues). At 12:17 the helicopter lifted off from the LZ and arrived at a trauma center at 12:25. Total transport time from scene to trauma center = 25 minutes. Driving from the scene to the trauma center in question would take approximately 26 minutes without lights or siren - a distance of about 16 miles. Arguably it may take a little bit less with lights and siren. How did the patient benefit from the one minute saved by air transport? (Weather was not a consideration at the time of this particular example and ground ALS was available so these are not factors) Another question - it is possible that the helicopter was called prior to the paramedic's arrival. Does anyone have any thoughts about the paramedic reversing a decision made by a BLS provider prior to their arrival? Protocol dictates that the highest trained medical provider is supposed to be responsible for such decisions but would it be incorrect for a medic to call off the helicopter requested by the PD, FD or BLS in favor of ground transport?

Sounds like you should have gone to another DMV office rather than deal with that nonsense! You should contact DMV headquarters and have them straighten it out for you! Good luck!

The NYPD does large scale mobilization drills regularly. This may involve a single borough task force, multiple task forces and/or a citywide response. They do sometimes use lights and siren in their response and it is often done at high profile locations in conjunction with the Hercules and Atlas units for the deterrence value. Or so they say...

Empress is one of the few holdouts from all the takeovers, mergers, name-changes, etc. It's been Empress since at least the late 70's or early 80's. Was owned by a few different people over the years but never changed names... Don't have the slightest idea where the name came from, though.

Since I read this as working for PAY in a trade (electrican, etc. as listed above) I don't see why we fell back to the tired ol' volly vs. paid FF thing again. I'm sure if you asked union tradesmen they would say that freelance electricians, carpenters, plumbers, etc. ARE taking away jobs/money from union members. Imagine someone coming into your union served career FD municipality with a fire truck and offering to work as a firefighter for less than the prevailing union wage. Wouldn't he get run out of town? Sure, that's an absurd example but I'm just trying to make a point. Unfortunately, we all have to earn a living and people will always hire the guy who'll work cheaper than the "other guy" - union or not!

Don't you need the digital PL and other "codes" to receive a digital transmission or is that just to transmit on the system?

That's perfect - once they run their battery down they're off the air!!!

Amen, King! Would y'all prefer that the cops drive a car that becomes a fireball when rear-ended? State bid makes it an economical competitor and besides, it has an input to play your IPOD on the car speakers - who cares about the Hemi?

If this is the person I'm thinking of, she was locked up at least once by Yonkers for aggravated harassment. Unfortunately, due to the glorious Court of Appeals, the statute has been changed by case law and we won't be able to use it against her or other system abusers in the future!

Time sure flies - the Avianca crash was January of 1990!

I think the idea is to deter people from shooting at cars instead of getting out of the way! Another thought is that once you get rid of the threat - the driver - what happens to the ton and a half bullet that was aimed at you to begin with. I've never agreed with the policy and honestly don't know what I would have done in the shoes of the NYPD that night but that is the policy. And you're so right - better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Although, I'd probably opt for a non-jury trial in a case like this because you'll never get a jury of your peers.

I don't think the protocol or emergency plan at and for an airport is going to be especially useful in the non-airport environment because they have special needs, issues, and resources. They're also regulated by the FAA whereas if your town becomes an airport one afternoon, there are no FAA regulations to follow. If you're trying to develop a good pre-plan for an aircraft emergency I would suggest (as someone else did already) attending the ARFF course at the training center and attending an airport tabletop exercise to hear the discussions and learn the issues at work there. Then you can develop a solid pre-plan for your town. You can also run a tabletop exercise in your community to identify strengths and weaknesses in an aircraft response (I'm a big fan of tabletops when they're conducted properly). As for recent aircraft incidents around here - yes, a plane ditched in the Hudson in January or February, last year (June or July) another plane ditched in the Hudson near Haverstraw Bay, and a plane crashed <2 miles short of the runway in North Castle last year (?). And yes, there was a Bell 47 helicopter (like from MASH) crash on the Bronx River Parkway in Hartsdale way back when Conrail (?) was still running the railroads in the County. Hope this helps!

Sorry, Seth but now that GPDExplorer let the cat out of the bag now we have to kill ya! Seriously, though - it's actually a pretty cool simulator!

66Alpha1, In re-reading this thread I see that you've made most of the points that I would have so let this be my "well-said, brother" post. You're so right, and this is one of the failures in ALL emergency services! What we do is a business - we have a customer base and they have certain expectations of us. True, we may be the only game in town but we are still accountable to the public we serve. That said, when the call comes in our customers need us (95% of the time we don't consider it a "true" emergency but they certainly do!). If you want adrenaline - take up bungee jumping or something. Most of the time, if we do our jobs right, there should be very little adrenaline. Morale doesn't have to bottom out doing BLS jobs if the system doesn't treat the nursing home calls as system abusers! If you take someone into your agency and foster the "let's be good neighbors" mentality that was posted earlier and cultivate the "every time you go a call you're helping someone" attitude you'll have far less resistance to the "less-desirable" calls. When I first started out, I was an action junkie and wanted to go on more challenging calls but as my experience increased I learned that helping calm the anxious elderly patients on medical alert calls was just as rewarding. In the fire service, I imagine that activated alarms at commercial buildings at 3 AM do little for the customer service mantra but they're still part of the job. We don't get to pick and choose what happens in our full-time jobs - why should we have that luxury in our emergency service jobs? If we all start treating this as a job (whether we're paid or not) and not some kind of club or hobby conditions and services will both improve! This means that training and "work details" are part of the territory, do your share or find a hobby (I'm back to the bungee jumping suggestion). If you're too busy to attend the training, or meetings about the future of your agency, or detail that will familiarize you with the tools of the trade, you really do need to reevaluate your motives and commitment. I'm not suggesting by any stretch of the imagination that you have to make them all, but you gotta make an effort! Imagine if our customers started voting down our budgets as they've been doing to the schools all over the place because of perceived problems with customer service!!! 'nuff said. I'm now getting off my soapbox! Keep at 'em Alpha1!

If I read this correctly you're saying that if someone has a glass of wine with dinner and is a passenger in an MVA later, you're going to treat them as though they have an altered mental status? I think that is a faster way to get burned... IMHO! And you're saying that this is the policy in NYC as per Dr. Dario Gonzalez?

Perhaps you can clarify this statement, too. I'm not aware of any statute or regulation that makes such a broad generalization. An actual citation to where you're obtaining this info would be greatly appreciated! If the patient was of age, alert and oriented x3 and made the informed decision to refuse transportation but was transported anyway, it sounds like there could be a problem. And regardless of the setting, EMS does not take orders from security guards. It does sound fishy!

Come on, cops aren't allowed to engage in "pursuits" anymore. Didn't you know that chasing offenders is dangerous! (Please note intense sarcasm related with this comment!)

It isn't just the rounds being fired - it has a lot to do with where they impact the victim, the victims' physical and psychological condition, adrenaline or other recreational substances, etc. all play a role in whether the guy falls down or keeps fighting. I've heard of suspects on PCP who will break both wrists trying to get out of handcuffs and don't even know they did it. They probably won't stop fighting from gun shot wounds if they're not dead either!

Is anyone thinking about calling the PD to respond in case there are squatters in the building and they've started a fire to keep warm - or worse, set up a clandestine drug lab? How about thermal imaging? Would that be useful to identify potential hot spots before the aggressive exterior attack that seems to be the main idea? Just some thoughts! Chris

Way to go Monty, I was wondering when someone was going to bring up a fire bridgade and/or partnership with the school. Great options, worthy of exploring. The other thing to consider is this regulation has only been enforced for the past few months and everyone is getting used to it. Perhaps in another few months people will be more careful and the volume of alarms will decrease.

I once attended a conference where a speaker described volunteer services as having long term problems and short term leaders. It was true then and it remains true today. How much of an impact can an officer have when his tenure is usually only a couple of years? True, he or she can be a positive role model, can influence the agency, etc. but the reality is by the time he or she has an understanding of their role and can set an agenda for change, they're running for reelection or moving up/out. Is this really a line officer problem or is it one that should be addressed by the governing body (commissioners, board of directors, or whatever) and the line officers collaboratively? There must be more that can be done to attract members, get them trained and involved, and keep them active! There must be strategies that will heighten the interest of potential members, energize the existing ones, and allow a department to get out the door with a competent crew in a short time. I've heard some talking about abandoning pagers for first calls and rostering first due units in house to limit the amount of time someone has to be tied to the pager and get up in the middle of the night. Anyone experimenting with that locally? Great topic! Can't wait to see more ideas.

Are you sure you're not bashing cops??? (just kidding) Sorry, but I'd call your first example an evacuation. If you pulled an alarm box in an equipped building it would have the same effect, right? How 'bout this variation on the theme... Is it an extrication? If you open a door and assist EMS in removing a victim without the need for tools/equipment/hardware/toys/airbags/hairbags (oh wait, that's the cop)/etc. do you call it an extrication? Middle one I'm staying out of but the last example has to be called a rescue.