helicopper

Why paid crews 24/7? Why not roster volunteer crews in your quarters and only use paid personnel when you can't field the vollie crew? Many agencies in this county do (or used to) have on-duty crews in quarters and it worked VERY well. If you're in a volly organization, you ARE one of the decision makers. Bring it up at the meetings, rally others to correct the problem, educate those who aren't seeing it. Who else do you expect to do it?

I agree that transport should not be delayed but when ALS is available in the absence of that transportation, the only thing to do is set-up shop on scene. I don't know if it's different up there but down here most medics operate in fly-cars so transportation is not an option. They have to wait for a transporting unit (except now in Putnam where part of the volunteer BLS system is being subsidized by the County's ALS system who do use ambulances during the day). As for response time measurement - every involved agency should be tracked for accountability but I agree that the clock should stop when competent patient care arrives at the patient's side. The clock should start from the 911 call. Assertions that volunteer agencies have only 3-4 minute response times makes me wonder how they're tracking that time. It has to take 3-4 minutes (at the very least) just to get members to the ambulance, then they have to drive to the scene (probably another 3-4 minutes). So how they track their time becomes far more subjective. Great points!

The Sheriff's Office is really the only 24 hour emergency service that the County operates with any meat in its budget. The Bureau of Emergency Services has a handful of full-time people and is augmented by volunteer coordinators - this of course does not include the Putnam 911 Center but they receive money from telephone surcharges so they too will hopefully escape this axe. As a longtime resident of Putnam County, I can say without hesitation that threats of another 20+ percent tax increase will only push me closer to calling for a TEA PARTY on FAIR STREET! We get no services now so I can't possibly imagine what else there is too cut - except perhaps the bloated County Executive's Office staff!

Is asking why a response time is 17 minutes coy or insidious? Is questioning response time stirring the pot? Come on, there are times that these questions have to be asked and there are very real issues in all our services that need to be addressed. If nobody asks the questions, how will we ever arrive at strategies for improvement? Would it have been less offensive if the questions were posed by a fellow volunteer or a non-FD person instead of a career one? Issues are issues, regardless of the make-up of the agencies involved. Frankly, I think this post smacks of a personal smite on another member.

While I wholeheartedly agree with JCoppola, Goose raises valid points as well. We SHOULD be able to intelligently and dispassionately discuss the issues without becoming emotional or taking it personally. Unfortunately, some are beyond discussing such things without immediately getting defensive which invariably creates the distractions in the threads that we've all had to endure lately. Sometimes the truth hurts - whether you get paid for what you do or not. We should still be able to discuss and debate the issues without it becoming personal or argumentative. I think it is possible to continue these discussions we just have to stick to the issues!

There are times in this region that you'd be lucky to get same day service on an EMS call! As for response times, I remember some very heated discussions at HV REMSCO meetings (when Westchester was still part of the HV region) when a response time standard for all EMS was proposed and vehemently opposed by those representing agencies who couldn't meet even a 10-12 minute standard the majority of the time. How's that for patient advocacy? Looking at it another way, define response time for me. Are you considering it from the time the 911 call is placed until a qualified person arrives at the patient or the time from when the ambulance leaves the station and arrives at the house/development/building? Vastly different but odds are there are agencies out there using both and/or their own variations of them.

Very well put, Sqd! The fundamental problem is the self-certification or self-designation of resources - not just locally but nationwide! Resource typing has established standards for many different assets but there is no objective, unbiased review of the things you identify above - specifically training, qualifications, equipment, response time - so anyone can claim to be almost anything. This places an enormous responsibility on the IC and the requesting jurisdiction. How about we start with an answer to a non-hypothetical question: What is a qualified "dive team"?

Like so many other issues, there are two sides to this argument. Administrators and anti-social types (like ONEEYE - just kidding of course ) prefer one officer units because they are on the surface more cost effective. You don't take two officers out of service to write a simple report, more tickets can conceivably be written by two officers in separate cars (and at separate locations), deployment can cover a larger geographical area, etc. Conversely, the argument can be made that two officers will be more efficient and complete assignments more quickly together rather than alone. From a safety perspective, there can be no question that two officer units are safer than single officer patrols. Your back-up is already there and you can develop sound tactics for contact and cover working with a regular partner. I disagree with the assertion that in rural/suburban areas you don't "need" to double up or the argument that in urban areas your back-up is "always around the corner". That's a whole lot of garbage. Cops can (and unfortunately DO) get killed anywhere! As for dispatch protocols, dispatching two cars (regardless of how many officers are in each) is for safety. The second car can be cancelled once the officers on scene determine that it's not needed. If they are needed, it is always better to have them there or on the way. Before I give my preference, do I get to pick my partner???

Congratulations!!! and God bless your wife!!! 10 pounds 5 ounces! WOW!

OK, if it weren't for the thunderstorm in the area I'd say call a HELICOPTER (yes, a shameless plug - read: job security). How about calling the NYPD for their air bag unit based in the Bronx (not the kind of airbag already suggested) and let the guy jump like Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon. Great footage for YouTube.

For those unfamiliar with the FFDO program, this is the information publicly available from the TSA about it: (not subject to copyright/reprinting limitations)

The "accidental discharges" that you're referring to are a result of handling the firearm - they don't just go off spontaneously (and 210 is right - a misfire is when a gun fails to fire as intended). This begs to question: why was the pilot handling the firearm in the first place? I've had mixed feelings about the Federal Flight Deck Officer program since it started because you're essentially giving a gun to a civilian with no training - sorry, but 40 hours of training (not 40 hours of RANGE TIME but a total of 40 hours of training) does not prepare someone for making a shoot/don't shoot decision aboard an aircraft loaded with passengers and then making the shot intended. I like the idea of Air Marshalls or other law enforcement officials being armed aboard the plane but the pilots need to be flying the aircraft. I'm sure this will be swept under the proverbial rug because neither the airline, the pilot's union, or the TSA want this to become a major issue - especially in an election year.

The so-called "staff" to which you refer are not salaried employees. Nobody is being compensated for any of their positions within the EMTBravo group.

Some may want to, some may want nothing at all to do with it. That's the point - Villages/Cities can do it, why not towns? This gives towns the option. If they can do it more efficiently or cost-effectively, shouldn't they have the authority to do so? [opinion] This does nothing but level the playing field and give towns the same authority that villages and cities already have. [/opinion] As for the pricetag, it is typical manipulation of statistics to scare people into believing what they want. Sure, there may be costs associated with such a change but there is no requirement to create full-time paid personnel in the legislation. The town could choose to simply administer the same type of department that has always exists but under their control and responsibility. I'd be interested in seeing an objective/unbiased accounting of what the actual costs might be. Ironically, the "Section U" that is referred to is "intentionally omitted" from the legislative search engine. Go figure!

Doesn't EMTBravo count as a secondary means?

Date: 03/14/08 Time: approximately 2145 Location: Downtown Atlanta, GA Departments: Atlanta PD, FD, EMS Description: Reported tornado ripped through downtown Atlanta, numerous injuries, numerous structures damaged, including CNN building and NCAA basketball arena (game was in progress at time of storm) Links: http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/14/storm.atl...=rss_topstories http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,338078,00.html http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23641889/ http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atl...storm_0315.html http://www.macon.tv/news/local/16697356.html Writer: Chris192

I just happened to notice that a bunch of Bravo members are celebrating their birthdays today, so... HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!! HFD219 DD07 TSull Monty mbendel36 rryser

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/03/12/report...ref=mpstoryview Are people insane or what? What good can come of this if you're the family? I know we've discussed the media before but nobody deserves this kind of treatment for just doing their job! Whaddya all think?

You're right, the thread has changed from the initial inquiry into a much more comprehensive discussion about FD staffing, regionalization, and other related issues. It has, for the most part, been a very informative discussion. However, with any exchange of ideas there is going to be a difference of opinion and a great deal of emotion. In the interest of keeping this thread going, please take a deep breath before you post, try to appreciate the other person's point of view, and keep it objective. Personal attacks or jabs and agency bashing are violations of forum rules! Discussions about the staffing or policies of a department are not necessarily bashing. Sometimes when a thread changes subject it is easy to split into two subjects but this one has sort of evolved from one subject to another making that difficult. Chris

What fire departments are you referring to? I'm not aware of any being "cut to the bone" any more than any other municipal department (not just emergency services but all of them). All over the place people are being asked to do more with less but that's not a lack of appreciation, it's a budget problem. The elected officials are trying to hold the line on municipal budgets (this clearly does not apply to school districts) so we're forced to live within a budget - how's that unappreciated? The economy tanked after 9/11 and all local governments took a hit; I don't consider that a lack of appreciation of the emergency services. There are federal grants out there for many purposes - it's not all for the PD or LE. There have been several threads in this forum about local FD's getting grants for a variety of things. Don't blame the PD (or law enforcement in general) for what happened to haz-mat in NYC. That was a decision by the MAYOR! Blame him! The NYPD is receiving millions of dollars for terrorism prevention - that is putting more cops in more places to deter and/or prevent terrorism. Isn't that an appropriate use of the funding? Who else besides law enforcement is tasked with preventing crime/terrorism?

To many the fact that a "volunteer" is receiving benefits (tax breaks/incentives/pension/etc.) contradicts the notion that they are in fact a volunteer and that the system is "all volunteer". I know the IRS considers many of these things income so the argument has some merit. Arguing that volunteers "deserve" these things in order to continue volunteering diminishes the long history of distinguished community service that the volunteer community has enjoyed for centuries. As was pointed out in another thread, the "what's in it for me" approach has hurt the volunteer community.

Had to take that County shot didn't ya?

All, This has been a very informative thread and a wide array of viewpoints are being shared. I'd just ask that, in the interest of keeping it civil, we all refrain from personally directed comments (in accordance with the forum rules) so it remains productive and objective. Thanks in advance for your cooperation!

You know THAT question is being asked a lot right now! His detail is not quite as intense as the President's though so I guess where there's a will there's a way.

Publicly humiliated, family ruined, and out of a job...