res6cue

What a tremendously tragic commentary on the often misplaced deeply rooted belief that our "traditions" are so important that they must endure at any cost. Between this thread and the the other "riding the backstep" thread floating around here, I can only say I'm stunned at the blatantly ignorant and belligerent responses of some of you yahoos. Yes, that's right, I'm getting right up in your faces. Anyone who has made a post supporting or dismissing this dangerous practice of riding ON the apparatus instead of IN it is a complete and utter moron, period. You can double that indictment if you happen to be a veteran or, God forbid, an officer. Those warning labels and placards are on fire apparatus for a REASON people. That reason is because firefighters have DIED for doing just what they warn against. It's that simple, really. I don't give a crap if no one in your dept has gotten hurt or died from it, do you think that makes you immune to it? It does not. You know that electrocution hazard sign on aerials? If you think that's a joke, come by our firehouse and look at the LODD monument out front. We lost a man that way back in 1967 when our Snorkel came in contact with power lines and he touched the truck. As easily as he was killed, it's just as easy for someone to fall off of moving apparatus and suffer an injury or be killed. Smarten up people.

Hazing? Mean spirited acts? Acts intended to embarass or otherwise belittle new members? No. However, the light hearted antics abound. Unfortunately, yes, there are some overly sensitive individuals that take even the most well intentioned things the wrong way. In today's politically correct world, you almost have to be concerned with EVERYTHING you do or say. It's an absolute joke, really. I cannot understand for the life of me how a person can join a fire dept only to cry foul (or worse) if a few guys dump a bucket of water over them in an attempt to say "Hey probie, welcome to the club!" It's only my personal opinion, but I don't believe anyone with such thin skin belongs in the fire service. In most cases, they only wind up alienating themselves from the onset anyway, and they wind up being the last person anyone wants to go inside with.

JBE, wouldn't it stand to reason that if the 911 calls come into PD first, that they would naturally put the call out to their units while notifying FD? Obviously once that happens, any ESU units in the area would get a jump on the call anyway. There's really no way to prevent it, for PD to hold back from dispatching their units right away would be irresponsible to say the least. It's just the nature of the beast. If the 911 calls came into FD and had to be transferred to PD, the results would be the opposite. PS - Who cares who shows up first, as long as the job gets done right and everyone goes home safe.

Even more positive progress.

Excluding the Squads, no.

Ladders, Squads and Rescues.

Gotcha, that's what I figured. Again, great post.

That picture speaks volumes. I really do not and can not understand why some of you insist on arguing that it's no big deal, or not as big a danger as it really is. Either you're playing devil's advocate because you're bored, you're a dinosaur who hopefully is not and will never be an officer or decision maker, or you're just plain ignorant or reckless. Whatever the case might be, you really ought to reevaluate your position on the matter. And to the younger members reading this thread, please realize that there were very valid reasons that riding on the outside of apparatus was regulated against. People actually got seriously injured and killed from doing it. It wasn't just some meaningless NFPA, OSHA or insurance company decision, it was based on case histories. Same reason apparatus cabs have to be enclosed. Don't fall into the trap of the "happy go lucky" member of your dept that tells you to "lighten up and have some fun!" and tries to coax you into riding like the yahoos in the picture above.

Great post...I agree with almost everything you've said. The only two points you made that did have me scratching my head, though, were these... I'm really not sure in what context you mean we shouldn't care what the public thinks of us. That very same public not only funds us, but the entire point of our existence is to protect the public. I think we should care what they think of us. I, for one, don't want to be driving around town in filthy rigs and having Joe Public say "look how they treat the expensive equipment my tax dollars paid for". Nor do I want the public seeing us acting like a bunch of unorganized and unprofessional slobs on the fireground. Or worse yet, stumbling around drunk and pissing in some guy's front yard at a parade. I think how we present to the public is and should be very important, and we need to be cognizant of it. The truth is, if we don't do the right thing by the PUBLIC, we can't survive. Especially in the volunteer service, where we run the risk of being seen as inferior to a career department, and where politicians can use examples like these as a reason to sell the public on disbanding us altogether. The second point I'm having trouble getting my head around is where you keep mentioning "having fun", yet most of the points in your post are serious ones. Talking about doing the right thing and training and leadership and respect. All great points, don't get me wrong, but generally not associated with "fun". I do understand how you mean once the organization is in order and running like a well lubed machine, everything else will fall into place, including the fun. However, I just find your post maybe a little contradictory when your opening and closing statements were basically 'let's have more fun', then you go on to complain about threads on this forum related to lights and sirens and parades and anything not having to do with training or doing the right thing. Again, I agree with the body of your post. It's spot on as far as addressing most of the issues in the volunteer fire service, and if everyone read it and subscribed to it, we'd be a lot better off. I'm just having trouble making the connection between how all those serious points relate to having fun, or what those points have to do with the threads people make here. Honestly, who cares what threads people make or post in here? Not everyone shares the same point of view or has the same interest, obviously. To some people, asking a question about using lights or sirens in a parade is a legitimate question or issue. Try not to be dismissive of that while making your own points.

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=11897

I don't think taking a single truck to a parade, when you have plenty of other trucks to protect your district, is a big deal at all. Especially if it's only for a few hours. That being said, I agree that once that truck leaves the district, it should be OOS. Responding from the parade, especially from within the line of march, just doesn't make sense (not to mention can be disruptive and dangerous). If your dept is that desperate for the truck to respond, then you probably shouldn't even be at the parade in the first place.

I really cannot understand North Korea's rationale that they can somehow "annihilate" us with nuclear missiles. How many can they possibly have that can actually reach us, if any at all? By the time they got just one off, one single ballistic missile submarine will have launched enough Trident missiles tipped with multiple targeted nuclear warheads to literally wipe their country clear off the map. And oh yeah, according to the CNN report, both missles they fired failed in midair within a minute after launch. I dunno what Kim Jong Ill is smoking, but it must be some really good sh!t. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/07/0...sile/index.html

Oh man, I've been to quite a few of these deathtraps over the years. The worst one I've ever seen was actually in one of the most affluent sections of our district. Wound up being a malfunctioning furnace with no visible fire. The house looked fairly unassuming from the front, but my god what a horror show inside. Not too many things get to me or turn my stomach, but this place did. I've been in some bad places and situations, seen some real nasty sh!t, but never on such a scale as this place. Urine and feces on the floor, rotting trash all over the place with the kitchen literally looking like a garbage dump, no room to walk among all the crap all over the place. It was actually beyond description it was that bad. We had to pack up just to get within 10 feet of the door to the place, and we had to decon all our gear and equipment afterwards for fear of...well, who the hell knows what, but I'm sure that place was a breeding ground for diseases and plagues not yet discovered! The other similar problem we run into is in the Hasidic village of New Square. Every other single family dwelling seems to have some sort of commercial enterprise being run out of it. The danger of disorientation and entrapment is extremely prevalent and likely. No joke, we've had guys lose their bearings checking automatic alarms in broad daylight, it's that bad sometimes.

Generally speaking, the rules regarding the use of lights and/or sirens are laid out in the rules and regulations for the parade. Host departments usually put together a packet that includes these rules as well as lineups, maps and any other pertinent information, and they are mailed to attending depts about a month or so prior to the parade. As far as the basis for the rules themselves, often times if it's an association parade, like HVVFA or RCVFA/WCVFA, the association already has rules in place that the host dept is expected to honor. If it's a local parade, the parade committee for the host dept would obviously be free to write the rules as the choose.

15. I definitely trust the USPS over the Pentagon, which is kinda sad.

As ONLOCATION said, taking a few days here and there to clean, degrease, touch paint up, vacuum, wax, etc. your $400K to almost $1M apparatus is not a waste of time. The sad truth is, the only time they really get anything besides a quick wash and half assed wax is during parade season. Meanwhile all throughout the winter the road salt just eats away at the chassis and body. Perhaps there should be a little more attention paid to taking care of the trucks. As far as suggesting that the time spend on truck prep is time better spent training, c'mon now. Do you having training every single day and night? In a volunteer company? I seriously doubt it. Even career depts take time to clean and maintain their rigs. I find that guys getting together to clean the trucks builds morale, which is sometimes in short supply these days. Besides, you can usually make a drill of it if you're creative enough. Great time to teach the probies where all the equipment is and how to go over it and maintain it properly. The trick is to try to make the most of time spent at the firehouse, and if you can turn something into a learning experience, even better. Training the guys to take care of their equipment is hardly time wasted.

Well...aren't you guys just so special! Who cares what other states allow or don't allow? We should be happy to even have them when we've been able to use them by law for many decades? Sure, if that's your opinion. As far as your ridiculous overgeneralized stereotype about blue lighters....here's a newsflash: there are plenty of cops (including feds) that drive like complete idiots also. Do you honestly think it matters whether you're a volunteer firefighter or a fed? It does not. It's all in the individual driver. And to be frank, if I needed someone to drive my rigs and had to choose between a volunteer firefighter who responds all the time to emergencies, or a fed that might respond lights and sirens once in a blue moon...guess who I'd choose?

We have three, and since the 80s, they have all been SUVs of some type. The truck stays with the same Chief throughout his tenure, which is three terms of two years each for six total years per vehicle. In the last few months of their term as Captain, the procurement process is started. Generally the vehicle is purchased and equipped and ready to go within the month the new 2nd Assistant Chief takes their office. When the six years are up and they leave office, they have the option of purchasing their vehicle from the district at fair market value using the Kelly Blue Book. The idea of having a semi-permanent vehicle or fleet just didn't make sound financial sense. It's actually cheaper to buy new every two years rather than have to constantly maintain older vehicles, especially for warranty issues. Going the six year cycle route, you can keep most vehicles within their factory warranty period, which is obviously beneficial.

Well, I just found their website, and I'm a bit perplexed now. Looking at their apparatus, I only count 7 vehicles. 2 engines, one of which is an old Mack. 1 Telesquirt. 1 rescue pumper. 2 ambulances. 1 old van for fire police. There is something to this story that just doesn't add up. http://www.gordonheightsfd.com

The volunteers do NOT live free of property tax. The only thing discounted is the initial price of the unit. Yes, maybe a little bit of tax revenue is lost on the sale, but it's extremely minimal. Sure there is, but he made that choice freely. Also, giving discounts is a normal part of running that type of business, be it coupons or discounts to volunteers. If I get 10% off my meals at the local Italian restaurant, guess what? I'm gonna be quick to recommend him to friends and family because "hey give so and so your business, he's a really good guy and takes care of us." He makes out in the end, believe me. It's no different than when they donate to the fire company, they know we're loyal to them and they gain a larger customer base. Yes, absolutely the taxes have to go up to facilitate a LOSAP program. Which is why it has to be voted on by the district taxpayers and why it's tightly controlled by the state. Again though, if you compare the cost of these LOSAP programs and the service the community is getting for their money (again, I'm ONLY speaking for my own dept here), it's a hell of a bang for their buck. If we were to go to a paid system in our district? Forget about it. We protect over 32,000 citizens in a roughly 15 square mile area and run just under 1000 calls a year. Our annual budget is just around 1 million. I'm not saying that's cheap, it's not...but compared to a paid system? I would guess it would probably be at least twice as much. That's pretty significant, a doubling of taxes. I think we can agree that risking one's life and livelihood for the greater good of the public is just a TAD bit different than organizing a Dewey decimal card file (no disrespect to library vollies). Let's not get too carried away with the "volunteer" comparisons. Incidentally, as I noted earlier, the military is considered "volunteer", but I don't hear you making a point of how they get compensated. Why not? The argument of "paid vs vollie" is so overblown to begin with. Most areas of the country simply do not need a full time paid dept. That would concern me most of all, if someone was trying to tell me that I need to pay double or more the taxes for fire protection because they want to replace the volunteers with a paid system. Unless the vollie dept was so absolutely inept or out of control with spending, I don't see the justification for it in most cases. Certainly in the case of our district it's wholly unnecessary. In any case, it's better to be involved and concerned (as you are) than to be apathetic to it like many citizens are. I agree, you won't get any argument from me there. Some of the antics that went on/go on out there give us all a black eye. Of course it's not just confined to LI either, we know that. I think the clear difference is that the stuff in Rockland is happening above the table. With the public's support, understanding and approval. Obviously the articles in the Journal News are proof enough, we WANT the public to get more involved and realize just how good they really have it with the volunteers. I promise you, if I thought we were a bunch of yahoos, I wouldn't be a member for so many years. I can't say for certain, but it must have something to do with either time already served in the organization and/or a minimum percentage of calls and activities that I would guess the dept monitors. I can't answer that as I'm not directly involved in that aspect of it. No worries, I like a good discussion and debate myself. Admittedly, I am a bit sick of how these types of discussions often seem to deteriorate into a "career vs vollie" mudslinging fest. That's a real shame, because I believe firefighters are firefighter no matter what other distinction you make of them. There are bad seeds on both sides, there are bad policies on both sides, there are wastes of money on both sides...and there are good things on both sides.

Holy sh!t. I'm sorry, that is just completely out of control by ANY standards. It's downright apalling and sickening is what that is. At first while I was reading it, I was thinking with taxes that high, we're talking some exclusive community in the Hamptons with multi-million dollar mansions on the beach. Blew my mind when I got to the part describing the area they serve.

No trouble at all. Incidentally, New City's UHF fireground channel (listed as TAC-13 in our portables) is 460.5750.

Thinking on it a bit more, I think it needs to be stressed that this isn't FREE housing, it's DISCOUNTED housing. The taxpayers are NOT picking up the bill for this. These are deals made with private entities to set aside some units at a reduced rate for area volunteer fire and EMS personnel. The reason is obvious, this area has some of the highest property values and tax rates in the entire country, so this is a little incentive for guys to maybe stick around instead of fleeing to cheaper areas. While I agree that in this particular case, the units will be offered at half price, it's still hardly a handout or freebie. Nor is it "sleeping at the station". That's another matter entirely, let's not muddy the waters further by confusing the two. As far as the question of "At what point do you stop being considered a VOLUNTEER ? Housing, pensions, what's next free food ?", this is where the contraversy always comes in. Just what does the word "volunteer" REALLY mean? The trouble is, it has a few meanings. Our armed forces are "volunteer", yet they get paid. The Red Cross is volunteer, yet they provide free meals and housing to their volunteers during deployments. A large portion of the fire service is volunteer, yet some of us have a free meal after a big fire. The list goes on and on. The only way ANY organization will EVER be truly 100% volunteer is when every single expense is paid out of pocket by the individual themself. No free soda, food, LOSAP, clothing allowance, t-shirts, hotels for conferences, etc etc etc. We can go on and on about definitions and semantics all we want. The point is that "volunteer" firefighters in our county do not get paid a salary, nor do we get paid per call. We receive no direct compensation whatsoever. If our dept gives us free t-shirts or meals here and there, so be it. If the local businessman decides he wants to give us discounts in his shop because he appreciates the service we provide, so be it. If the owner of that 200 unit condo complex decides he wants to set aside 25 units at half price for us, so be it. If the taxpayers want to allow us to earn credit towards a LOSAP program that pays out a measely few thousand dollars a year at age 62, so be it. Call me whatever you want to, I don't care. The bottom line is that I'm a FIREFIGHTER, period. Why do we always have to qualify and quantify that word with prefixes like "Volunteer" or "Career" or "Union" or "Paid on call"? We're all here for the same purpose.

Well, I'm sorry for flying off the handle anyway. You do have a legit point, obviously. I just think there's a fine line between actually getting compensated outright with a salary of some sort, and what is going on here. I don't really see things like offering cheaper housing or a little tax relief or even college tuition as compensation, per se. I agree that by definition all those things are indeed a form of compensation, but I also believe in today's day and age it's difficult to retain members if they can't afford to even live in the area because it's so expensive. I will say this, I can honestly say that I've never, ever heard someone tell me that they joined for the LOSAP or the prospect of maybe getting a cheap condo somewhere or any of the other "perks" that are popping up these days. Then again, because I joined before all of these things, I'm sure I have a different perspective on the whole issue. That's probably why I get a bit defensive about it also.

Wait...I think you got that backwards. If Westchester's system is proprietary Motorola requiring Motorola equipment specifically designed and programmed to work on the SmartZone system, then how could Rockland's P25 open standard non-Motorola radios possibly work on their system? I can understand Westchester's Motorola equipment being able to work on our open standard system, but how can the opposite be true? I wasn't actually referring to simplex fireground operations, I was referring to the trunked UHF portables themselves. I'm completely aware of how Rockland's new system is going to be designed and laid out. Forget fire for a minute, I'm talking about EMS or PD inside a house trying to reach their dispatcher over the trunked system. Sure, standing in the middle of Main Street should be no problem, or transmitting on a mobile, but how is this going to translate in the real world using a 4 watt portable on UHF in an area that is still very low band and VHF friendly as far as the terrain and foliage is concerned? This is exactly what I mean. 95% coverage while standing in the middle of the street and having no speaker mic on the radio is just too unrealistic a scenario. You can usually just as easily use your mobile if that is the situation. We all know the moments you need to get a message out the most are when you ARE inside a house, and we all know that the vast majority of radios have speaker mics attached to them. Again, it all sounds so wonderful on paper, but how will it truly perform in the real world? That has obviously yet to be determined, hence my skepticism. Yeah, I'm totally aware of how it works now, but that still doesn't address the issue of dead spots in the county as far as the pager reception goes. What I would like to see is the low band system expanded as well. There is no reason there can't be more low band transmitter sites throughout the county to increase reception. I'm sure the Centracom Gold Elite consoles Control is now using can be programmed so the correct and closest transmit tower is automatically selected based on the fire dept being dispatched. Something similar to cell phone technology, where it polls what site the strongest signal is received on. As it stands now, the dispatcher has to make that decision manually based on where the call is or who is calling into Control. Not very efficient.