firefighter36

I was wondering what everyone's perscribed duty uniform is. I am aiming for Fire Personnel, Career or Volunteer (some departments supply uniforms for standbys, etc.), who wear a uniform in the course of their station duties. 1. What materials? Poly/Cotton, 100% Cotton, Nomex? 2. NFPA Complaince 3. Color (Officer/ FF) 4. Patches, or Brass? (I.e. Badge patch, Collar Brass?) 5. Polo Shirts to be FUNCTIONAL alternatives to uniform shirts? 6. Uniform shorts? what is everyone's views? what are your bosses view? 7. EMS style pants? What Fire Departments wear them? What do the people and bosses think? Here are my concerns: 1. Badges and Collar Brass and Name plates getting caught up in coats/ suspenders, weight of the shirt. 2. Cost vs NFPA compliance, since we wear PPE over our uniforms? What is everyone's opinion? 3. What is more comfortable? What is more Functional? 4. Career guys, do you get a uniform allowance or does the department absorb all the costs? 5. Who performs care or maintenence? Thanks for the feedback!

Doc, thanks for an interesting point of view. While I still do not agree, I like to see the how and why behind things.

I believe you are mistaken. The employees are directly hired and employed by the district. They receive their paychecks from the district. The Union is not established until employees decide to form it. Thus, before that, they are non-union employees who work for the district. Once established, the union enables employees to bargain collectively for pay, benefits, conditions of employment, etc. Employees pay union dues, however the union does not pay the employees, nor does it receive compensation from the district. The employees work for the District, not the union. The easiest example of contracting out services would be a local industrial operation in the Poughkeepsie Area. IBM firefighters work for Grubb and Ellis Property Managers, not directly for. IBM pays G&E, who in turn pays their employees. This is just like belonging to "Mohegan Volunteer Fire Association" as a volunteer firefighter, who contracts with Lake Mohegan Fire District to Provide Fire Protection. The Career staff in Mohegan work directly for Lake Mohegan Fire District, and as such, are not "Contracted" for their services. The contract between the Union and the District exists to govern the rules under which District Employees work. Hope this clears it up.

What does everyone think if Chiefs were issued unmarked vehicles? Would anyone care if they didn't know the vehicle was owned by a Fire or Police Department? Would this make a difference in perception from the public? It seems as though all the sightings and stories are marked vehicles with light bars, striping, decals, etc. What if they were a simple dark color, tinted SUV, Car, or Truck with a hideaway package and siren?

The Fire District and the Fire Company should both be tax exempt organizations. Thus, they should not be paying property taxes for the land/buildings they own.

I have to go ahead and agree with Seth and Alsfirefighter. There is no reason that a Fire District should be paying rent for a firehouse from a Fire Company. In my humble opinion it is not a responsible way to run a department, nor a responsible use of taxpayer dollars. I have also heard of Fire Districts that "contract out" fire protection to fire companies. I believe that this happens in Lake Mohegan FD in Westchester and in Milan FD in Dutchess. I would say that this falls in the same category, and again is nothing more than legalized money laundering. (Sorry for such harsh terminology, but I don't think that such an arrangement is fiscally responsible.)

Though budget totals are nearly the same for FFD and EFFD, look at the manpower, number of rigs, number of stations, etc. That would be like comparing apples to oranges. The startling thing you see is how the size of our district in proportion to tax-exempt property impacts the average taxpayer! I don't always like to play the numbers game, but look at the size/ layout/ staffing of Arlington and East Fishkill. East Fishkill has more stations, equipment and more turf than Arlington, no doubt. Also, look at the property value for the average home, as well as the new construction, again, probably a bit higher in East Fishkill than in the Town of Poughkeepsie. EFFD is less than $2 per thousand off Arlington. I'm not talking about budget total, I'm talking about the fire tax rate. Would the taxpayers in East Fishkill pay the extra $1.23 per thousand to have ALS level transport provided by their Fire Department along with 24/7 staffed rigs? Would the manpower suffice for the equipment? Also, would initial dispatch change? (less equipment on a 1st alarm) NOT trying to make a mess in people's cornflakes, but I want to see what people think.

Anything in the **-51,52,53 range in a rescue truck, first two numbers being the dept. vehicle. I almost think that Westchester's numbering system may make more sense. What is everyone's opinion?

EFFP411, I apologize, I was referring to the tax rate per thousand on assessed property value, which is what I was told by an accountant. Not the actual budget totals. I will research it a bit and see if they are the same and get back to you. -mark

Goose, the first part of your post hits the nail right on the head. You hear it all the time on the 911 radio, where some of these departments cannont get an adequate response out for alarms. I too am not sure what it takes to staff two ambulances, but again, many towns do not want to pay for the services. They see no value in someone sitting idle while their tax dollars are funding their pay. We all know that this is not a constructive way to look at things, and that funding of emergency services is an insurance policy of sorts. When I worked commercial EMS, I always thought that Beekman & Pawling should have 3 rigs between the two towns, so they can share the backup unit. Though not the optimum plan, it was still better than the current system and could potentially cut down the wait time for an ambulance for a 2nd call or major incident that requires a large up-front response. As for what I observe from good old Fairview: 1. All of the career/combination departments listed above are short staffed. Oftentimes, ladders and ambulances are cross-staffed, and in departments without transport EMS service, 2 firefighters per rig, is simply not accepable for getting manpower to a scene and ensuring safety of the public and firefighters alike. 2. EMS response north of here is a major problem. Response times aren't anything special, and the level of service from the home departments is dependant on the type of call, location, and even transport is questionable, because it sounds like it is often turned over to a commercial service, even if the call is BLS and the FD's ambulance is on scene with a crew. I have been to plenty of mutual aid calls up that way and the same thing has happened to me, all while our station is down an ambulance and half of the shift because it seems that some people have a problem with back-to-back calls, transporting, or simply responding unless it is a "good call." 3. Fire response in this county is also unnerving. Fairview has one of the highest fire taxes in the state (upwards of 85% of the proprty in the district is tax-exempt. Thank you Albany and Dutchess County!) However, as an employee, I can attest that taxpayer dollars are spent very responsibly, and come budget time, the higher-ups sharpen their pencils to a fine point. We get good equipment that is practical and gets the job done. We also maintain it well. It is hard to understand from my view why The Town of Wappinger needs 4 or 5 heavy rescue trucks, all of which seem to cost more than the stock of our fire or EMS apparatus, and do about half as much or less calls per year. My point is, Dutchess County has an immense duplication of services, and I wonder what accountability measure are in place for departments and their management considering some of the spending that takes place. (As I understand it, East Fishkill's tax rate is similar to Arlington's. Arlington has 80 employees and 4 stations, East Fishkill 0 employees and 4 stations and a sub station.) Where is this money going? Do we need a new engine or chief's cars every other year? Also, are we buying what is practical to do the job? My Pipe Dream: A county-wide Fire Department, which runs fire and EMS. Both services would be staffed adequately based on need and call volume. EMS would be fire-based, relying on FD first response and transport from a BLS or ALS unit based on the type of call. Commercial services would be left to medical transport, medical facility, etc. This department would still have a place for the volunteer service, and would lead to more qualified personnel, and a way for someone to start as a volunteer and make their way into the career department. With all this comes fiscal responsibility, increased training and certification opportunities, and a true sense of comraderie. Too many ideas to list here, but I think this can be accomplished while still holding down the identities of different communities, all while working together and providing better service to the taxpayers. We have a problem in Dutchess County, and the politicians seem to stay away from meeting the issue head-on. Everyone wants their little kingdom, and while the demographics of the county change, call volume increases, and nature of services change, our staffing stays the same. To be honest, I love my job, and I love working at Fairview, but if things change for the better, I am not concerned with what color my gear is, what the patch on my shoulder reads (FFD of DCFD), or what color the rig is. What matters is that we get the tools and staffing to provide our taxpyers the BEST POSSIBLE service and protection, all while ensuring that our brothers and sisters are able to safely do their jobs and go home to their families after every shift.

Fairview (Dutchess) Professional Firefighters, IAFF Local 2623 http://www.iaff2623.org Fairview Fire District (Dutchess County) - Under Construction http://www.fairviewfd.net

Having grown up in New Haven, CT and having a close family friend in a ranking position there, it is extremely upsetting to see people using the civil service system and the Fire Service as their Bully Pulpit for a political or racial agenda. New Haven has an excellent department, and having been privileged enough to ride for a few shifts, I could say that in the station I was at, everyone was color-blind, and the job got done professionally and courteously. It breaks my heart to see the few ruin it for the many. It also upsets me to see that this is happening in several departments throughout the region and country. Hopefully common sense transcends politics and favoritism and the most QUALIFIED, EXPERIENCED, & PROFESSIONAL candidates are promoted and hired, regardless of race, creed, or color.

Seth, excellent point on Career and Volunteer leadership and chain of command. Oldguy, nobody talks about staffing better than Goldfeder. I think the main thing is that if volunteer staffing or response is spotty or unreliable, than a rig that is "staffed" by career personnel should have at least 4 QUALIFIED individuals on it. Ultimately, we are at the mercy of a public budget and taxpayers, and we see that number reduced drastically, OR departments play the "cross-staffing" game (I.E, same two guys who will be on the ladder will also be on the ambulance (if your FD does EMS.)) Depending on the type of call, a rig is then unmanned for the next alarm. Regardless, cutting corners will not be called cutting corners until someone is hurt or killed. It is the reality of the fire service to be reactive. As far as a command structure for a combination dept. My previous volunteer department before I was hired as a career firefighter had a rather good system. Career firefighters were under the command of a Battalion Chief. Volunteers were allowed to respond on a career staffed rig if they were QUALIFIED. Ride time and training under a BC was required. At all times, the volunteers were under the command of the rig's officer/ senior personnel. With that, each of the 3 volunteer companies in the town (all who shared firehouses with career companies) had 1 or more rigs. Each company had (elected) a captain and 2 lieutenants, who were responsible for the volunteer staff, as well as apparatus and parts of the station. There was a great amount of accountability for Vol. Officers, just like their career counterparts. Reports were submitted both weekly an monthly, and it was not uncommon for Captains to be paged out by the BC or Chief of the Dept. for information, business, etc. At a fire scene, the Vol. officers directed the volunteers and were given tasks on the fire ground by the IC. Vol. Manpower was paired up with Career as needed, and regardless of status, the tasks were always carried out and the job always got done safely and efficiently. There was some resentment between career and volunteer members, but it rarely if ever had anything to do with firefighting, it was merely 2 incompatible ego's and the career/volunteer banter was merely an easy way to point fingers. Combination departments can work, it is all a matter of how they are run, and how people are managed. Obviously, this guy in Springdale hasn't a clue how to be patient with people, or how to manage them, and hopefully something gets done to see to it that he is reprimanded to acting so foolishly. Just my two cents.

Capt. Benz, thanks for that information. Such a study was done in Dutchess as well. The results came out, and a few people didn't like it, and needless to say, the report is on a shelf collecting dust. Fyrlt, I think you hit the nail right on the head. Who wants to give up their little kingdom and slice of political power?

Closest unit response can only benefit the victims of an emergency. It does in a law enforcement environment where a town may have its own police department, but 6-7 fire districts within its boundaries. With the demographics of residents, types of service offered by the fire districts, as well as the availability of personnel, it is only a matter of time before someone is left without the help they need because an invisible fence of a district line is stopping staffed (albeit not properly staffed) equipment that may even be closer to an alarm from responding, while waiting 2 or 3 dispatches for the home department to try and get out. Westchester and Dutchess are in prime time to have county departments that can work. Staffing can increase, rigs be consolidated, individual identity kept for different locales. There would be a place for all personnel, and tax dollars can be more responsibly spent providing better protection to taxpayers. Why is this just a pipe dream? Politics. People like their little kingdoms. As call volume, demand, and demographics blur our district lines (especially after 2 or 3 dispatches) politics and personal agendas keep those boundaries as plain as day.

First and foremost, I made more per hour in high school working at a gas station than I did in college and after working private EMS. I made $10 per hour for about 3 years as a commercial EMT. (same place as you moggie.) I grew up in CT, where EMTs were making $14-$20 and medics $24 and up. This was at a commercial service in a union shop, where the hiring process was very selective. Other commercial operations existed, and their pay and their quality of service reflected upon each other. I chose to stick around where I went to college (NY) and work EMS in that area, where I received $10 per hour, no insurance, no retirement, just PTO based upon the hours I worked. The biggest problem I found working commercial EMS was lack of a business plan on the company's part, and lack of any sort of sensible compensation plan. The company was a springboard for everyone who wanted to go into Law Enforcement, Firefighting, Medicine, etc. As the company grew, it seemed as though they fixed things with duct tape, rather than come up with any real plan for the long run. In my first 3 months, I saw 2 general managers "move on" and 3 operations managers "promoted due to their diligence and hard work." All whose resumes read paramedic with 5-15 yrs experience. No management training, no leadership training, etc. Needless to say, I was never in trouble, but going the extra mile was never appreciated, leaving me to make my aforementioned wage for 3 years. Compensation is a big picture, it includes your pay, insurance, time off, just to name a few factors. This company never really offered much to PT and Per Diem employees, and the pay vs. benefits for full timers was not much better. To make matters worse, new hires coming in the door were being offered high hourly wages for recruitment and retention purposes, all while long-time, loyal employees were being given little opportunity to advance or earn a raise. This was unfair to loyal employees, and created a lot of tension amongst the staff. It is an insult to be making 20k a year for 2 or 3 yrs and have to work OT to come to parody with a new person's base pay. On top of this, the company would low-ball contract bids in the hopes of making up earnings in insurance payouts for transports. Emergency Services is not about what will happen, it is about what may happen. Having an ambulance in your down (likewise a paid PD and FD) is an insurance policy. It is about having property staffed, trained people on the right apparatus for when the call goes out, so there is the best possibility of delivering the best help as promptly as possible. With that, the company was often in financial trouble, and staffing was always short, OT was cut, added, people were bounced from call to call, from shift to shift, and there was never a real set plan as far as the actual operations went. (Managers were merely paramedics who were asked to handle business instead of going on calls.) Again, there was little or no management training. One day you were in a rig, the next day you rode the desk and wore a white shirt or business casual clothing. EMS is a career, and I think that x635 has put it best when he describes his ideal EMS system. As for pay, EMS professionals are grossly underpaid, and are definitely worth more. I think that working conditions, morale, etc. all play a factor. We all know none of us were or are there for the money, however, there is only so much you can put up with before you have to stand up for yourselves. I agree that a union may be the way to go, benefits and retirement, as long as a say in working conditions can go a long way. I think that the first step though, is giving EMS employees a wage that they can live on, and re-structuring how companies do business.

I usually Ski Hunter. Hunter and Windham have a great deal going where you get 4 passes for a little over $100. Also, if you go to a price chopper store, you can get VT, NY ski deals (3 passes to Whiteface, Gore, MT Snow, etc.) Between $100-$150. I try to fly out west once a year as well. I have a friend who is living and working in Telluride, CO this winter, so I'll probably go out there as well this year. If you fly to ski: Whistler BC has the best Party Scene, Utah has the best food, Jackson Hole, WY is the Hardest Skiiing, and Vail/Breckenridge, CO is the most awesome scenery. PS- Breckenridge is a great blue-collar ski town. If you're looking to Drive, Mont Tremblant (About 2 hours north of Montreal) is awesome as well. All have great skiing, great accommodations, and excellent food/nightlife.

When making budget considerations, reliaze that our job revolves around what MIGHT happen, not what will happen. In other words, public safety workers are an insurance policy of sorts.

If running the foam system or purchasing foam for such a purpose is "too expensive," isn't that a factor that a department should look into before implementing such a system? To me, it seems like buying a vehicle and then saying that oil changes and wiper fluid are too expensive to purchase. The initial cost of a tool is just a starting point, maintenence and usage costs over time are just as important, and sometimes overlooked.

I believe that to be compliant with the law, all a department has to do is be in the process of purchasing these systems. I am not sure of the time frame that exisits to actually purchase, and then implement the system. As for training, would that be provided by each manufacturer if systems and processes are proprietary to a manufacturer?

In my CPR instructor class, the intructor coordinator noted that research shows that the oxygen level in the blood at the time of a cardiac arrest is often times adequate enough to support life, and that deep, strong chest compressions are critical to keeping tissue alive. Obviously, early defribrilation and early advanced care are an integral part of the entire process. I have also heard that research is being done to track how effective ACLS treatment is, and whether or not patients will be transported if there is no change in status after 2 rounds of cardiac drugs. (That, however, is beyond my scope of practice, so I apologize if the ACLS info. is not 100% accurate.)

Date: 9/5/2007 Time:approx 113:30 Location: 99 Prospect St/ Sunset Cove Frequency: DC-911 Units Operating: City of Poughkeepsie FD/ Fairview FD/ Arlington FD Description Of Incident:Large Gas Tank on fire Writer: MBendel36 Note: Scanner in Dispatch Office is kind of Scratchy, Advise if anything is innaccurate. 11:53: CC-15 requesting fireground 11:53: 32-15 to standby at PFD Station 4 63-45, 32-12 to PFD Station 2 Highland 31-10 to PFD Station 1 11:54 New Hamburg Dispatched M/A, Stewart AFB and IBM EC also dispatched. Units Operating as of 1355 City of Poughkeepsie Arlington Fairview La Grange Highland (Ulster) Stewart Air Nat'l Guard (Orange) Roosevelt New Hamburg New Hackensack Hughsonville Pleasant Valley Castle Point VA FD Haz-Mat IBM Emergency Control w/ foam Dutchess County Sheriffs Marine Unit Orange County Sheriffs Marine Unit Ulster County Sheriffs Marine Unit US Coast Guard US Coast Guard Aux.

That McLovin is a smooth operator!

x635, I agree that the home rule law in NY is not conducive to effective fire service in NY. Having been to Albany to speak with politicians, I can say that they are largely unaware of the real concern of the situation: Public Safety. They look at it from a dollars and cents standpoint, and are not always aware of the big picture we see when we go to work everyday. I hate to say it, but they are largely influenced by FASNY and their Agenda. Not to offend the volunteer brothers and sisters, but FASNY pushes an agenda of "Volunteerism Saves Tax Dollars." While that cannot be debated, staffing (career or volunteer) is determined by several factors, such as call volume, hazards in the area, and others too numerous to list. Looking at Public Safety in a sense of "What Will Happen" instead of "What May Happen" for the sake of Dollars and Cents is irresponsible. County-wide departments in the South and out West set a great example of what can be accomplished in a combination department with consolidated services. Career and Volunteer firefighters work together, and (hopefully) either side doesn't have a lobbying arm dedicated to reducing or eliminating the other. North of NYC, each couty collectively has more fire apparatus than FDNY. Granted, we have departments spread out over much larger areas than NYC, it is mind boggling to see what some departments place in service. For example, we have more heavy rescue vehicles in Dutchess than NYC. While we have all of these Rescue trucks, it is a waiting game to get any kind of marine rescue or firefighting assistance on the Hudson. It is also rather unnerving to see that some people's fire taxes for a 100% volunteer department are on par with those levied by combo/ career departments. Obviously, it is easier for the general public to complain about taxes if there are career employees, becauase a majority of any fire district's budget goes to pay salary and benefits (if they have full-time employees.) Residents in 100% volunteer fire districts that pay taxes on par with career departments should absolutely question the fiscal responsibility of of their politicians. On the other hand, policitians should also approach the services in a more serious manner for consolidation, for reasons which BFD182 Hit upon. BFD182, I hate to change this topic, but not being familiar with Stamford, could we infer that the various districts will benefit from merging with SFRA and a larger dept. will prove to be a long term benefit to taxpayers? Stamford's smaller districts doing their own thing all these years is very simlar to home rule, only on a much smaller scale, of course. Everyone else, can we see what is currently happening in Stamford as a smaller test of the risk/problems/benefits of consolidation on a larger level in the future? On the lighter side, there is a "Trash Collection District" on Long Island somewhere that charge rather high rates for garbage pickup.

Is this the LODD scenario we discuss in NYS FAST and Survival Class? If I remember correctly, the floor opened up and the Lt. fell into the basement, where he was lost.