Bnechis

If the 35,000+ Ibs. fire truck hits or is hit by a 4,000 Ibs. The truck always wins, the lawyers/judge just decide how much it will cost.

Nothing against Greenville, but I did not consider them to be a "Larger Job" taking transfers from "slower depts."

Agreed, but we let anyone drive and even those who should not drive, do.

This becomes law in less than 2 weeks and I have seen nothing on it other than here. The law needs to be promoted. Most NY have no idea this is law and those passing thru would not know either.

There are only 15 depts that use the T&V list (Eastchester, Fairview, Greenville, Harrison, Hartsdale, Larchmont, Mamaroneck, Mohegan, Peekskill, Pelham, Pelham Manor, Portchester, Rye, Rye Brook, & Scarsdale) I do not see many "larger jobs" and do not see many trasfers going on between these.

All this will change with 3 simple words: 1) Wife 2) House 3) Kids

Nice story about a great cookbook. I prepared my Probie dinner with help from that book. "How to serve man.......................Its a cook book"

While they work in some places, too many places are just hoping no one figures out that they are no longer a fire department, just a building with lots of expensive trucks. Bravo. Too many depts do not understand this. Large numbers who don't contribute actually drain the department.

What electronic accountability and response tracking systems? Instead of any firefighter responding, this is the perfect case for consolidation. Then each station needs to only staff 1 or 2 units (1st due engine & a tanker or rescue). Even if the same number show up, you will have a much more coordinated response.

The politicians are not to blame on this one (and thats tough for me to say). NYS has minimum standards for career firefighters, because of the lobbying efforts of the NYSPFF. FASNY has lobbied for decades against minimum standards for volunteers. The politicians have only done what the fire service ask/lobbied for. How is it unfunded? NYS provides the training at no cost to the firefighters and very minimal cost to volunteer fire depts. (often just a material fee and transportation costs). It is very disapointing that PESH is so minimal in its ability to push depts forward. I think this case will be the same, but potential litigation may convince communities to do the right thing, mandated or not.

Interesting question OSHA has never answered this question. Except by applying the definition of a permit required confined space: 1910.146(b)Definitions. "Confined space" means a space that: (1) Is large enough and so configured that an employee can bodily enter and perform assigned work; and (2) Has limited or restricted means for entry or exit (for example, tanks, vessels, silos, storage bins, hoppers, vaults, and pits are spaces that may have limited means of entry.); and (3) Is not designed for continuous employee occupancy. "Permit-required confined space (permit space)" means a confined space that has one or more of the following characteristics: (1) Contains or has a potential to contain a hazardous atmosphere; (2) Contains a material that has the potential for engulfing an entrant; (3) Has an internal configuration such that an entrant could be trapped or asphyxiated by inwardly converging walls or by a floor which slopes downward and tapers to a smaller cross-section; or (4) Contains any other recognized serious safety or health hazard. So in affect, attic's (with out a normal stairs to walk in) and crawl spaces are confined spaces by definition. And if there is a fire or IDLH atmosphere it can be classified as permit required. Generally, I do not believe that anyone would actually classify a confined space as a permit required one during a fire (including OSHA/PESH). But technically it is and our members should be trained to understand the hazards.

If it was that easy their should be a whole lot more experts. Well said. So how do you go after the kid who climbs in? What about the DPW worker who goes into one? If he works for the same municipality someone in the municipality must be a team. We figured out in 1994 that it was $40,000 cheaper for the FD to have the team than DPW, just by not having to meet the respiratory standard for DPW to wear SCBA/SBA.

I agree its not often enough, but its the local FD's responsability to provide it. In the case of Confined Space it was law for almost 8 years before NYS even started to offer it, but local FD's were still legally obligated to provided it. And it was available thru private training companies. It unfortinate that the county does not have unlimited resources, but they only have the ability to pay for X amount of training and if they do not maintain a minimum class size then, there will not be enough classes in some other area. Its going to get much worst next year as the budget is being cut. Its great that you do it for free, but you are one of very few in a county with 1,000's of firefighters. The law has always required that the department is responsable for providing the training. In fact career ff's in Westchester do not recieve free training from WCDES. The career academy bills each dept. about $4,000 per student, then also requires us to provide support, by sending our instructors at our cost, to teach the course. All depts are mandated to provide the training and we actually have to pay for it. You are 110% correct. It makes no sense and needs to change. Maybe FASNY can lobby the state to change this. You can never meet OSHA by relying on OFPC or WCDES. OSHA requires that the dept provides the training not an outside agency.

There is no stipulation that the training comes from OFPC or DES. In fact the law says the EMPLOYEER (read your FD) must certify the employees (read ff's) and any OSHA required training must include the dept. policies (which OFPC, DES or any other outside agency can not teach). This holds true for ALL OSHA mandated training: Respiratory Protection, Bloodborne Pathogens, PPE, Hazmat, Trench Rescue, Confined Space, Fire Brigade, etc. The only exception to this is if you work for OFPC or DES (as a responder). If you want to use OFPC or DES to get the state certificate, thats fine (not a bad idea actually), but you then must perform an inhouse training/evaluation to actually certify.

This is only partal correct. The law requires that the employeer who's personnel go into a space must provide confined space rescue services. If the FD is a fire district and the district does not own any spaces then they do not have to provide the service. If they do own a space they either must provide the service or when the spaces are entered they must contract for standby services. If its a municipal department and the municipality has confined spaces (they all do) then the municipality must provide Confined Space Rescue Services. It does not have to be in the FD, but it must exist. OSHA requires the Confined Space Rescue Services must be onscene in a "timely fasion" and they define that based on CPR Time. Which they have stated means you need to be able to provide CPR to the victim within 4-6 minutes. If the team is not onscene during the entry, there is no way they can get to the victim in that time frame. Since most municipalities send workers into confined spaces, there needs to be a Confined Space Rescue Services in the municipality. The law only addresses workers who enter Confined Spaces as part of work. It does not address what happens when a kid goes exploring, with the only exception that the FD CAN NOT enter the space to perform a rescue/recovery unless they are a Confined Space Rescue Services. Agreed. The department must also have a written Policy, stating that they do not go into a confined space.

PO & EMS are required by Federal &/or State Law (OSHA/PESH, Commercial/private vs. Municipal) to have Hazmat Awarness which they learn that, also required to have annual refreshers. FF's have to have Operations level.

1910.134(g)(1)(i)The employer shall not permit respirators with tight-fitting facepieces to be worn by employees who have: 1910.134(g)(1)(i)(A)Facial hair that comes between the sealing surface of the facepiece and the face or that interferes with valve function; or 1910.134(g)(1)(i)(B)Any condition that interferes with the face-to-facepiece seal or valve function. 1910.134(f)(3)The employer shall conduct an additional fit test whenever the employee reports, or the employer, PLHCP, supervisor, or program administrator makes visual observations of, changes in the employee's physical condition that could affect respirator fit. Such conditions include, but are not limited to, facial scarring, dental changes, cosmetic surgery, or an obvious change in body weight.

Sen. John McCain rips Zadroga 9/11 health bill push as 'fooling around' Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2010/12/18/2010-12-18_mcweasels_at_it_again_rips_zadroga_bill_push_as_fooling_around.html#ixzz18TVd7e2Z

Lets flip this around. We respond FD & EMS to a skilled nursing facility (read gods waiting room) for an abdominal pain. We arrive 2 minutes ahead of ALS and find a patient with minor complaint. We perform a primary & are in the middle of the secondary assessment when ALS arrives. They complete the assessment and release FD. On the way out of the building we encounter the PD sector officer walking in. Advise him of the situation and that we are not needed. He continues toward the patient and I ask: "why" is PD needed on this? While I was no longer IC (turned that over to EMS). The response was PD needs to investigate every call to confirm that no crime was committed. Why in your senario is it ok for PD to make a determnation but in mine FD can not? Does PD need to respond to every FD call?

Agreed. The biggest was the Village knew and not only chose to ignor the law, but actually lied (during a 2007 inspection) and said they di not enter confined spaces. When the law was originally past, the example given for the need for the law reads exactly like this incident. This is irrelevent. The issues for the fire department are not if they have the equipment, its have they been trained to recognize the hazard and based on the violation they are not incompliance with the law to enter any location with a IDLH atmosphere or a potential IDLH atmosphere. In plain english this means they may not enter or approach a FIRE.

And a lot of good old plain luck. Don't believe its destroyed, we just filtered the pool and pour some chlorine in it. That reduced the algee, but the chlorine will burn off and it will be back. Remember some of what we are fighting we have been fighting since "the Shores of Tripoli" in 1801-1805.

Yes tougher standards would be of help, but, in this case the problem was they were not meeting the existing standards. They fire chief told them they needed it and the made the choice not to meet the standard. How many depts meet the standards now? its only been a requirement for 14 years. Who will fight to require depts to meet the standards. As it is we have groups fighting to reduce the current FFI. There are no standards in NYS for Fire Officers, except in career depts. and thats only 1st line supervisors. But barbers are required to have over 1,000 hours training vs. fire chiefs who need zero.

Yes it is 2 differnent pots and bonds can not pay for salaries. But the money to pay for the bonds (which almost always start within 1 year) comes from the general fund. The same general fund money that is used to pay salaries.

While that is often the case, the depts I was refering to had PESH visit and the violations issued based on they had not visited in a long time and not because of something happening. In 1 case a dept member (s) dropped the dime, the others were cold calls.

Many many FD's in Westchester have very little regard for OSHA regulations. This year I can think of over 35 violations issued in Westchester (and thats just 3 depts). How many depts. respond to "fire calls" with fewer than 6 firefighters (at least 4 being interior)? I can think of about 20% of Westchester FD's (I know there are many more from reading the IA's) that violate the respiratory protection program by lack of manpower on at least a portion of there calls. And the wrath from PESH is not strong enough to convince depts to change thier ways. I hope that the litigation that is coming will hurt enough to convince many depts that they need to follow the rules. Its sad to think that firefighters and officers don't fight for this because its the right thing to do and it will protect us. Deputy Chief Billy Goldfeder has a great line, he asks: "WHO IS IN YOUR WALLET"? If you do not care for the people whos photos you carry in your wallet then dont follow the rules, they are there so that at the end of the day you go home to them.