Bnechis

1st) can you define a heavy rescue? 2nd) owning all of these apparatus is only usefull if it can be staffed 24/7/365 with qualified interior firefighters. You already told us that members do not respond if they dont believe its a "real" call. 3rd) Does all of this apparatus equal quality fire protection? The Town of Ossining has a split ISO rating, with part of the town being rated a 9. This is on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being best and 10 being no fire department. So lets compare it to Palm Beach County which also has a split, but its worst area is a 4. That means their worst area will pay 35-40% less on fire insurance and as you pointed out they have less apparatus to manage this.

I hope the tone out is house fire and not automatic alarm...Oh wait the career dept does not pick and choise, so the same response goes either way. Now if both are the same, why are the requirements for the insurance industry so different? For the last 107 years the insurance industry has required a minimum response of personel to reduce damage during a structure fire. The standard is drimatically different for staffing that is on duty in the fire station and members responding from home/work. For career depts (and vol with on duty in house staffing) the requirement is 12 ff's and 1 IC, for on-call (vol) its 36 ff's & 1 IC. The 3:1 ratio is on EVERY CALL. So to recieve the same rating vol. depts need 3 times the number of firefighters, does not sound like Mrs. Smith will have the same experience. These standards are based on national insurance claims for 100+ years and are the bases of trillions of insurance premiums. Wow FF1 that takes just 2 weeks of the 14 week accadamy and we wont even allow someone with that level respond on a call. Yes many vol & career ff's have aditional training, infact it is required by state law for career depts. I have been an instructor for 25 years and I can tell you the difference in the training given is not the same. You may get the same certificate from OFPC, but there are many differences. Lets do some Math: A probie in my dept. will be assigned to one of our busier engines, which respond to 2,000 - 2,500 even with shifts and vacation time our probie will respond to 400-500 calls per year. This is more than the total call volume for almost 1/2 the VFD's in Westchester. In addition all calls will be under the direct supervision of 1 or 2 officers, who will work 1 on 1 with the probie. How can you make this up in time? As Jim Carrey said in the movie "Liar, Liar"..............and "the truth shall set you free" You are correct, this is because we have massive duplication of apparatus, equipment, stations, etc.

We have the same annual turnover in our 3 collages, but we solved it by enforcing the NYS UFP&BC. How can you claim you understood the potential, but still had a reduced response? Even better, you allowed your selves to be cancelled without actually confirming the cause of the alarm. Sounds like a duty to act and a failure of that duty. Your 1/2 way to that lawsuit and its not like fires have never been discovered after the FD was cancelled. I did not respond with lights & Siren, responded after PD was on-scene and called a working fire (FD tones had gone out 2-3 minutes before) and parked up the block so as to not block fire operations. I was always surprised that I still arrived in time to do a full walk around the structure before the 1st due arrived. In each case I had atleast twice the travel distance as the 1st due engine. You did not imply, you came right out and claimed members did not respond to these calls. Yes the VFD's budgets are much lower, that does not mean they cost less. I have found many cases in Westchester where the per capita costs are much higher for VFD's. Also property owners pay much more (often over $1,000 more) in insurance for the honor of having volunteers. Was it Poor Richard who said "you get what you pay for"? I know its hard for you to understand, but having only seen one side, you can not. Those of us who have done both understand there are major fundimental differences. This is not to take away from what those active volunteers do (and many are very dedicated, well trained, etc.), but it is not the same. Just in the few post you have made in this thread, some of those differences are clear: 1) We can not ignor calls or pick and choise which are worthy of us responding to. As another poster put it tone it out as a worker or extrication and everyone shows up, but your AFA in the middle of the night...good luck. As a fire dept we all have a duty to Act, but only career and rostered volunteers have a duty to act, no one else in the eyes of the courts has that same duty to act. 2) We enforce the NYS Uniform Building & Fire Code, which a. respolves the problems you have addressed, by making the property owner comply with NYS law. The initial traning to enforce the code is 126 hours long, thats almost twice the time required to be a volunteer firefighter (and it does not include our fire training). We are also required to have ifia minimum of 24 hours of annual in-service training to maintain our code enforcment certification. Here's a little irony over the past 16 months I did 48 hours of codes in-service (24 in 2010, & 24 in 2011) and all of it was done in volunteer fire house meeting rooms. During those classes there was always a fire call or 2 and we would have to stop the class till the horn stopped. Everyone would look at their watch and wait. Around 8-10 minutes the 1st rig would respond, then in another 6-8 the 2nd and in at least 3 cases the ladder rolled after 18 minutes. The standards for career depts is all responding rigs on the road in 1 minute. 3) You stated that the public should understand that you do not man the fire station 24/7. Well here is a major difference. Why the hell not? My Father Lives in your (former) Fire District and pays high taxes for the privaledge and you can not garuntee a response, but those who pay very little or nothing in the Schroder St projects in Yonkers or on the south side of Mt Vernon or the Horton/Winthrop Projects in Ne Rochelle or the South Bronx or any other undisirable location in any city in America has a gaurunted response. There are many other differences, but its clear you will never understand that we are light years apart. This does not mean their are not great VFD's and poor career FD's or that there are not well meaning and dedicated volunteers. But the two service delivery models, particularly in westchester are not even similar.

There are no laws that prevent this, however some depts do not allow it and on interstates, the state police will ticket private vehicles that stop. While this may solve the pro blem of people responding it creates a number of problems: 1) crowded incident scenes. Often there is not enough room for apparatus and hose. Sometimes the extra vehicles create a safety hazard. 2) accountability - It is critical that we know who is on-scene and what they are doing. THere have been a number of cases where no one knew that FF Smith was dead in the fire, till the rigs packed up and someone noticed his car. 3) assignments - Firefighting is a team effort. Depts often assign duties based on seat assignment. It is much harder to organize the team when they do not arrive together. Think of a football team arrives at the stadium and goes right on the field without assignments or plays and no time for a hudle. 4) some depts have many issues with "responding" members with blue lights. This is well documented elsewhere on EMTBravo. There is a federal and state law that requires a minimum number of interior qualified personnel prior to entering a hazardous atmospher (fire, hazmat or confined space). What happens when the rig arrives with only a driver and no one else shows (or not enough show)? Tough to sand there knowing you cant help and time was wasted, when mutual aid could have already been requested. BTW I thought you were hung as a spy at 12 noon on October 2, 1780?

Could it be because they pay more for the VFD, than FDNY?

Wow, where to start............... 1st) who are the morons, the students or the FD who keep responding (or roll over and ignor it) without resolving the problem? We had a similar problem in one of our dorms at CNR, with AFA from smoke detectors, we forced them to change to rate of rise detectors near the microwaves and have not had a false call in over 10 years. 2nd) Whats the chance that it could be a fire? I hope no students are trapped. All bets are off. Re-tone? How long is the delay? Without lights and siren I've arived on your scenes well ahead of the 1st engine on a "cops reporting heavy fire" and I was driving from another community (in your flycar). Now you think the times will be acceptable, when most members will ignor the tones and go back to sleep. Your unofficial duty crew responds to the house, gets the rig and responds to the call (and they are in slow motion because we all know this will be another popcorn call). Once on the scene, if they find a serious fire and request a retone for a working fire, the rest of the members will start to head toward the scene. Honestly, what kind of delays are we talking? I know that that 1st rig took a minimum of 8 minutes to get there from the alarm time(and thats being generious). 2nd due will take how long? 3rd) Both OFPC & USFA have many documents on the problems of campus fire protection and also many case studies of 100's or 1,000's of false alarms prior to a multi fatal fire in campus housing. I remember watching Boston FD pulling up infront of the Dorm across from mine, at least twice every night. The took it serious, full response, in gear, ready to work, after 3 months of this they rolled in one night and fire was venting from 12 windows across the top floor lounge. It was an automatic alarm (started near the micro-wave. They were suprised to see it burning, but there was no delay. Yes its tiring, but ignoring it is unprofessional and will come back to bite the dept. So is EMS more important than fire? Ok so nights were covered, but I always had to wait forever during the day Clueless, have you ever explained to the community who services are provided? Maybe they bought the whole concept that career and volunteer are the same?

DPW purchases the cars, sets them up and bills DPS at a rate that is much higher than the county contract that most city, town, village depts use.

Because more EMT's & Paramedics can only do EMS and not Fire & 1st response.

Make sure the politicians and the public understand that if you can not meet 2in/2out (which includes 6 personnel) then it is illegal to enter a burning building to put the fire out. It only takes 1 fire for this to become explosive.

Your terminology needs to change. Never use the term "full staffing". Stick with "minimum manning" and the big question is what is the proper number for "minimum manning"? The head of ISO advised the Westchester Career Fire Chiefs that if 6 firefighters (2 in, 2 out, 1 IC & 1 MPO) did not respond on every fire call at a minimum, they would consider the dept to be an ISO 9. The have sent this to the NYS Dept of Insurance for approval. Clearly they have not done a NFPA 1710 review, but have they even evaluated the number of personnel needed to perform basic functions? Functions to look at: 1) Do they allow apparatus to be assigned only 1 member, and do you have an SOP that requires a spotter to back up? 2) Do you staff a tower ladder with less than 3 members. Most manufacturers reqire 1 on the turntable while 2 are in the bucket. The paperwork throws all liability on the dept. that fails to do this. 3) How many firefighters are needed to stretch a line, perform ventilation, do CPR, etc.? The commissioner is correct, if 5 is ok some of the time, then why not all of the time? In fact if the commissioners believe that 5 is the proper number, then ask them why they have been funding 7? Again what is the correct number for "minimum"? The ISO Improvement statement list the number of volunteers that they consider you have based on the number that respond to calls. Many combo depts. end up with only a few, even if they have 100's on the rolls. Once a "minimum manning" level is established, backfilling should be established when you drop below the minimum.

1) The two-tone NYS contract is only for Black & White Cars (dont know the price). 2) NRPD switched from two tone (blue & white) to white because of cost. I forget what the savings was, but it was over $800 per car. 3) Before the CE took office we reviewed the DPS budget and found the county spends almost $20,000 more on equipping its comprable cars, than local PD. Part of the reason for the cost is they do not use the county contract for setting up the cars.

This is a serious concern for many depts. and there are proven methods to attack this problem, including the following: 1) Meet with the facility, try to convince them that this is there problem. The crying wolf could become a real disaster for them and that their failure to address criminal acts by their staff/residents is a big liability for them. 2) Pass a local ordinance that AGGRESSIVLY bills for repeat and or malicious alarms. Fee's should be designed to dramatically escalate so property owners are encouraged to fix the problem. Fire Districts may not do this, but the town (thru the building dept can) and in Mt Pleasant they have an ordinance that’s at least 10 years old, but it has never been enforced. I spoke at length on this issue with your Board of Fire Commissioners about 10 years ago and they said the town would not enforce it because they wanted to be "nice" to the property owners. If the town is unwilling to assist, you may have to play hardball. Advise the public that the situation is so bad that only 2 solutions have been determined: 1) the town strongly enforces its own ordinance or 2) your will be forced to hire enough firefighters to handle the problem this will result in 2x- 4x increase in everyone’s property tax to cover solution #2.....If you do not want this to happen, contact the town supervisor at 555-1234 and demand he/she solve this issue. 3)With enforcement efforts, we were able to address the collages and they started fining students who did not evacuate during alarms, at 4am this caused many of them to rat out those who were pulling the alarms and it no longer was a "game". With the funding from the fines they were able to purchase alarm covers, which made it easier to catch those pulling the alarm. They also established an expulsion policy (without reimbursement for tuition & board) for pulling a false alarm. Our false numbers have gone way down because of these actions.

500 gal (same as all of our engines)

Ok lets consider who would be resistant to it? The FD members - these members can be further split into 2 catagories: those that are strugling to make the calls and those who remmeber the good old days and are no longer responding to calls. The chiefs - do they understand the personnal liability they have when no one shows up and they've known this is a longstanding problem. Yes they want to be chief, but consolidation does not mean they will no longer be it. The commissioners - the ones who swore they would do what was in the best interest of the community. Do they understand how bad things have become? The public - Has anyone told them, that the XYZ FD is having trouple getting out and their are 2 choices: hire people (and raise taxes) or consolidate....lets vote on it. The union (while not applicable in this case, is a concern in others) - Do they fully understand the pros & cons of consolidation? The risks & benefits must be determined and discussed. Contracts must be considered. Many places have done this, it can be done. Or we will continue to slide till we are gone.

Care to explain this? The current Ladder 13 was purchased after the previous L-13 collapsed. A financial deal was made with Pierce to buy the crushed unit as if it was in perfect condition. I am not aware of any engines that have collapsed in NRFD.

Unfortunatly, it does not mater if you are giving them a good deal, or you think its a good deal. The reality is do they think its a good deal. And as a side note: do they know what a good deal even is? I find many emergency service personel do not have the slightest idea of the economics of emergency service. What is the cost of fire protection....the smallest part is the fire department, even if its 100% career.

Most people believe that they will never need us, but they hope we are 100% ready to go as they dial 9-1-1. What does this mean? It means we have done a horrible job of educating the public as to the economic value of the FD. In my city because of our ISO rating we save every property owner 3-4 times what we cost. If we got rid of the FD and gave back all our costs, they will see a 70% increase in premiums which is worth 300% of what they pay for the FD. If we never respond to a single call, we are a great economic value. Now add 8,000-9,000 calls per year. But the fire service does not sell itself.

No just like in a city the FD, PD, DPW, Parks, Social Services, etc. all compete for their share of the pie. If a political agenda is in play one dept may loss to others. I.E. the exec believes that people want to spend more on parks then public safety......guess what happens?

A county dept (if it was legal to do) would answer to the county exec and would have to compete with other county depts for funding. A countywide fire district would answer to a board of fire commissioners, whose only responsabilities are the FD.

Thanks. Everyone asked for a low hose bed. I do not know if everyone will like it or not, time will tell. Yes the yellow/red chevrons are required by NFPA and all the apparatus builders will not sell without them (unless you sign a liability waiver, which is not worth the risk).

Yes, its still not going to New Rochelle

Nope, just a removable storage box for future needs. Similar to the FDNY Squads. They do swivel out. They are called I-Zone Hooks (interface zone hooks). They were a west coast design used when you have a couple hundreed feet of attack hose out and need to move the rig a couple 100 yards to hit the next fire or protect the next exposure and you do not want to repack the hose, you van just throw a few loops over the hooks (like your garden hose) and go. We thought it was a good idea when on I-95, it would be faster to get off the road and repack it in a safer loacation. Also good in bad weather or if the hose was muddy and we didn't want it in the bed. A number of different variations are out there:

You mean she only allows me to let her drive it. Thats just not right. If you are following the above thread, Thanks, but you have never seen it. Now who wants to talk about the fire truck?

The remedy is to either fix the impact (additional services, which could include auto aid, or adding personnel, equipment, stations, etc.) or accept the additional liability/reduction in service.

This week was the Final inspection of Engine #21. It will be heading east next week.