Bnechis

ISO does not look at it that way. You get no points for the tankers (thats why the 9). The issue is to change the 9 requires performance testing and while it can be done with different units, its much harder to meet the time requirements in the performance testing. If 1 tanker is slower than the others it slows the whole testing down. Even if its slower because it carrys and dumps more water, it drops the overall test time. The other problem is most of the current tanker fill sites require 2-4 firefighters, these members DO NOT COUNT toward the minimum response to the fire. These members are needed at the fire scene, not the fill site. Its very complex, thats why I said a solid study of it is needed.

The one I just bought says Fire Dept. on it. And our EMS call % have been dropping, but not our fire side. I have no problem with hiring an EMS consultant to look at what it knows best. But what do they know about the fire side? The insurance industry has basicly said that depts with an ISO 9 are not capabile of fighting a fire. Most depts. in Westchester with 9's have spent a lot of money on tankers and other equipment, but does an EMS consultant have the ability to address this? Particularly since: 1) Taxpayer Bill does not want an increase 2) NYS Fire Districts may not bill for EMS (Fitch's specialty is maximizing billing) 3) ISO 9's pay the highest premiums while also paying for a fire dept.

Seth, Fitch & Associates is the leading National EMS and Air Medical consulting firm. The words Fire, Rescue, ISO, NFPA, Suppression, etc. are not mentioned in any of the services they list. While it sounds like they have come up with so great ideas that cover a large portion of SFD services, as Bill pointed out; How do we pay for it? And as I pointed out this may or may not address the ISO savings which hiring alone will not cover.

Improving an ISO 9 will require a lot of study and planning because even if you hired 1,000 FF's you will not change that 9 without proving you can move water, i.e Tanker Shuttles or relay pumping. You might also have to do a better job of setting up fill sites. The personnel will dramatically effect the areas with a 5 (which as an open book test scores a 50-59.9%). In the 9 area we need to change the backward way we do things, then extra personnel will make a big difference. To do the calculations requires knowing a whole lot more about the property value breakdown than we could ever do here. But that being said, if one is considering multi-million dollar budgets and a large increase it should be looked into. If you move that 5 down to a 3 and the 9 down to a 5 (which is very achivable) you should save more than it costs. Thats the best I can tell you without spending 100's of hours researching it and charging you a consulting fee. BTW. one of the biggest thing that holds the the 24 depts. with ISO 9 or splits with a 9 is the fact that we have too many local depts. Standardized tankers and standardized response make a huge difference in getting away from the 9. They must manuver the same, dump and fill the same and the same dump and fill times and volume. The also must be designed to dump and fill fast with fewer personnel than we use. Watching an ISO 4 dept fill tankers with only the tanker driver and not an extra engine company at the fill site works.

Ok When you want to quote 2 or more posts, lets say post 7 and post 14, click on the Multiple Quote button at the bottom of #7 then click it again under #14 (and continue as needed), then at the bottom of the page click "add reply" that will take you to the Posting box and you will see the seperate posts there.

Wrong. As I previously posted, their are depts with no hydrants that are ISO 4. If you do not have hydrants you just have to prove to ISO that you are competent to handle a fire in the non hydrant areas. ISO is an open book test and the PPC # represents your grade: 1 = 90-100% 2 = 80-89.9% 3 = 70-79.9% 4 = 60-69.9% 5 = 50-59.9% 6 = 40-49.9% 7 = 30-39.9% 8 = 20-29.9% 9 = 10-19.9% 10 = <10% To go from a 10 (no department) to a 9 only requires a 250gpm mini attack and 4 volunteers. Well said.

ROFLMAO Malone (Shawn Connery): "Isn't that just like a wop? Brings a knife(1 3/4") to a gun (2 1/2") fight". Only the help goes thru the back door, lol When we arrived, all the neighbors said was; "where is the Scarsdale FD, why is New Rochelle here?" I never knew we blew you out the back, thanks, makes the story even better.

yes and no. ISO PPC (public protection classification) is a scale of 1-10 with 1 the best and 10 no fire department. Each point improvement is worth approx. 8% (depending on which ins. co.). In NYS the 1 -10 is used for commercial properties. Residential properties are grouped into "a" (1,2,3), "b" (4,5,6) and "c" (7,8,9,10) however most ins companies then do the % savings for the group (i.e. 24%). Also each company still can use the 1-10 in is calculation the ABC was to make it 'easier". The main issue with this is improving or dropping one point will only save/cost a comunity if it changes the letter catagory. Generally ISO 9 & 10 depts that make any effort to improve almost always drop to at least a 6. The system is over 100 years old and its completely based on better fire protection capabilities equall less loss and less cost to the insurance company, they reward this with lower premiums to the community that has invested in better fire protection. No, I'm not bored yet, but thanks for the consideration.

The problem is not our "insatiable thirst for services" as many regions of the country have better fire service for less than we pay, our problem is our insatiable thirst for duplicate service, aka every firetruck, ambulance, police car, garbage truck and dispatch center must say "our town" on it.

Very well said. It made me think You are correct in stating no one is risking their life to save some furniture and a flat panel TV and Bill may not expect the FD to save his home, but their are some other factors at work, which your post made me consider. As a probie, I responded to a house fire at about 5am on a Sunday, it had been called in by a dog walker. I was on the 2nd due engine and upon our arrival we had a split level ranch with fire thru the roof and out many windows on the mid floor (kitchen,diniing/living room). Conditions were boarderline for an interior attack. The truck company forced the front door and then the garage. 2 cars were inside. That made everone think that the family might still be in there bedrooms. My LT. had us stretch a 2 1/2 to the front door and we made a push to the top of the stairs. We could not get down the hall to the bedrooms as conditions were bad and I kept feeling something hitting me (I found out later that it was roof slate, falling thru the attic. We were then ordered out and a ladder pipe knocked it down before we went back in. Once outside every window & the roof now had fire venting. I was not very hopeful for the family, when we pushed back down the hallway. It turned out that they were away. What did we save? A bedroom and the family room in the basement. I remember gatthering some critical family items and putting them under a tarp. The letter from the family said we saved the 2 things they could not replace; The family photo albums and their family history files. Fast forward to this summer, we had a house fire in the middle of the afternoon. Family was on the lawn as we arrived. Heavy fire on multiple floors. Our firefighters made an agressive search and attack which saved much of the home. I was at the CP when a FF came out with the families dog, unconsious and looking like a giant mop. EMS was able to revive the dog and the family made it pretty clear that what we did was the most important thing to them. They were insured and can rebuild, but you cant insure those things. While insurance may help you rebuild, it will not make you whole.

Yes my city is about 5 times the density, but our FD costs are about 12 times yours, so even with the denity and higher budget, our costs lower. Plus we provide many other services that Somers is not. Consider that we have anywhere from 14 to 30 cops (& civilians) on duty depending on the shift. so at 5x the density we are providing 15x (or more) the level of service. While you have Huge parks, they generally do not require much services, we on the other hand have IONA and CNR campus's which pay $0 in tax and we have to provide lots of service to them. We also have 3 resevoirs that dont pay and many other locations too. Its designed that way, hard to question what one can't figure out. No I can not tell. You are correct. It depends on the underwriter, but if you look at my figures you will find it looks close to the total, based on the %'s.

Yes clerical work is important but 5 part timers (2.5 FTE), how much billing work could there be? I can think of a number of districts that are much busier and 1 FTE handles it all. Entering NIFR'S thats the job of the officer incharge on the call, how can someone who was not on the call write it up? I handle the admin end of that and for 8,000-9000 calls it takes about an hour per month, if it were only 2,000 calls it would be 15 minutes per month. We have 2.5 FTE's, we are 4.5 times larger and we also run 150 member EMS/CME program (lots of paper work there), the city wide fire inspection program (Somers building dept does that), 150+ member payroll, and 1,000's of annual permits and renewels (oil tanks, oil burners, hazmat, public assembly, and most commercial occupancies) which in Somers, if issued are by the building dept. Well said. Too many depts forget or ignor this. Agreed, well said.

I reviewed this list and found a few issues: Of 22 comparison points, 6 both do. So we are down to 16 services that 60 control will not do for SFD.....hmmmmmm lets look at them: 1)MOBILE TERMINAL DISPATCHING - Technically true, but we have figured out how it can be done. 2)MONITORING BUILDINGS VIDEO’S - True, but how important is that? 3)PROVIDE PAST CALL HISTORY - They do it for everyone else 4)PROVIDE HYDRANT LOCATIONS - They do it for everyone else 5)PROVIDE CALL HISTORY ALERTS - They do it for everyone else 6)PROVIDE CROSS STREETS - They do it for everyone else 7)DISPATCH ACCORDING TO SVFD SOG’S - They do it for everyone else 8)ANNOUNCE SPECIAL MESSAGES - True 9)SECURES BUILDINGS WITH 42 CAMERAS - True (but does not count, since it is basicly the same as #2 10)SECURING ALL DOORS REMOTELY - Wow, crime must be a real problem in that town, None of the city depts have this. 11)CONVERT MDT COMMENTS TO ALERTS FOR FUTURE CALLS. - They do it for everyone else 12)I.M. TO MOBILE TERMINALS - True, is this really important? 13)TURN ON THE FINGER READERS - Is this important? Our tone units can be set up so 60 Control can turn on lights, open doors, etc. I would think it could do this. 14)START RUN AND EVENTS NUMBERS FOR LOSAP - They do it for everyone else 15)24/7 EMERGENCY SAFE HAVEN FOR THE TOWN OF SOMERS - True. How many times has this been utilized? 16)IN HOUSE MUTUAL AID FOR NURSING HOMES AND DOCTORS OFFICE - They do it for everyone else What a huge stretch, this refered to the fact that WEMS is dispatching its own comercial ambulances to calls when SFD can't get out. Its claimed that this improved response time by 1 hour. When we have calls beyond the number of ambulances, 60 tones out mutual aid, including commercial services. So of the 16 things that is claimed that 60 does not do: 8 they do 1 is a repeat 2 can be done thru other means so we are now down to 5 minor things (and 1 may have never been utilized) How much does this cost the taxpayer? Now I know a list of services that 60 Control has that SFD does not......... "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story" - Snotty

Yes most have 1 full timer (who also work for the district) your list was 4 or 5 part timers and later you mentioned how little they each did. Also they often get paid much less than a firefighter and get a 401k not a pension, Every career FD I know has to do this, at least till they get promoted (one reason to study). Vary's from dept to dept. but, many of the items listed are done by career members. I know our guys have completely renovated kitchens, tiled, built BBQ's, painted, electrical work etc. And the few items listed can be contracted for (cheaper than hiring). Brilliant I pay about 45% less for home insurance, I cant compare fire vs. liability to yours, but I suspect the liability & theft should be abouth the same, and I do know that the difference in ISO ratings (2 vs 9) happens to be approximatly 56%. Everyone in NYS who's fire insurance company is not in NYS also pays the 2% Good question, its very hard to answer if that would do it or not. However, in the country the best rated dept. without hydrants and 100% volunteer (but with very solid manning)is an ISO 4 which would be a 40% savings. Its clear that a department with a 9 (on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being no fire dept.) can do better. Will career personnel solve the problem? I don't know, because there are many other factors, but it is clear that change is needed. 60 Control's call volume is over 95,000 and SFD's is a little over 2% of 60's. If SFD's volume is too high/complex then how can they manage New Rochelle's which is 4.5 times more or Eastchester's which is about 2 times more. I guess the other depts don't have protocols, many of which were established and adjusted over the years. I am not surprised by this attitude, 20 years ago the SFD Board stated that they did not want free paramedic service (paid for by IBM & Pepsi) and they stated that the reason was: "the residence of Somers don't want paramedics when they are having a heart attack, they want people they know to hold their hands as they are transported". Most of us at that hearing never expected that.

Thats about what I pay, but "fire and EMS" is at $435 and its a fully paid system. Plus I save on my ISO rating. Then you are statistically way over due. I suspect a large number of SFD's calls are for other than structure fires. I hope no one you know ever has any other issues that a prompt response would be important. And you've worked as a medic for how long? Thats good, because it sounds like your expectations meet the current conditions. Can you tell me: "What is the cost of fire protection"?

The Governor VETOED this legislation. The Fire Service in NYS - 1 FASNY - 0

Thats not what they wrote on the application. 2 LI depts. are IAFF for career FF's - Garden City & Long Beech. All others came in under EMS or Dispatchers, not "housemen" Unless you are refering to IAFF members who also work as housemen and IAFF does not rep them in the latter.

Since LAPD has a fighter Jet, its possable for NYPD to have one also. Joe Friday: Ah, sure, but just like every other foaming, rabid psycho in this city with a foolproof plan, you've forgotten you're facing the single finest fighting force ever assembled.

Yes they have gators and they allow depts to come up and train on them, but no one ever goes back to their home dept. I can't imagin why?

If they joined in the last 15 years it was both. Over 75% of "EMS" in the 1970's in the US had Fire Service 1st response or transport since then it has increased, but how many decades does an FD need to be doing it before in your eyes its not to beef up its numbers? So FDNY started over 25 years ago, how many current FDNY firefighters were hired before they started? Last I heard they had less than 200 firefighters {not officers) who predate CFR. We have some members who have said the same........ "why did we start doing EMS"? They think its a new thing..... 1) All members hired in the last 30 years have had to maintain EMT and all officers to be promoted had to as well. Less than 2% of our members do not have to be EMT (and they are all approaching manditory retirement). 2) 40 years ago we were doing EMS 1st response "Inhalator" Calls. Without training we probably did more harm than good, but most "EMS" was that way in 1972. 3) Most of our members did not know until I post pics this year that we had FD ambulances in the 1940's & 50's 4) I found documents from the chief to the City requesting they purchase an ambulance in 1904 (I do not know if they bought it then).

I'm sorry but the job is the job....If you are very good at 50% of your job, but cant do the other 50% your employer has 2 options, live with you or replace you with someone who can do 100%. Boston has 100's if not 1,000's of potential candidates that are willing to do 100% so if you can only do 50% your out. Is passing EMT that hard? you want a great job with good pay/benefits? Pass the EMT.

As long as its a civil service position (and not a "houseman") then they can not give a local test and must use the towns/village test.

Most meters the toxic sensors: CO, H2S, CO2, etc. will work without the O2 sensor. Some detectors the LEL (or Meth sensor) will "read" without a working O2 sensor others will not, however you had better understand how LEL sensors work. LEL sensors "burn" a small sample of gas to determine how much is present. If there is a lower level of O2 it can not "burn" the sample and the reading will be wrong. Many fire service book listed that before using a combutible meter always test for O2 1st. Those detectors that wont do LEL without the O2 sensor are a safety, since most responders still have major problems understanding how detectors work.

30 days, 180 days 365 days whats the correct answer? WARNING: WITHOUT PROPER CALIBRATION YOUR GAS DETECTOR IS AS EFFECTIVE AS CARRYING A BRICK. Every book on direct reading gas detectors lists bumb testing or calibration before every use. Many state that calibration should be done no more than every 30 days unless bump testing is done before each use. Check your manufacturers info, most also say the same. You are sending your personnel into a potentially toxic, colorless, odorless gas and the only thing that will save their life is a working detector. Do you check how much air is in your SCBA or do you just hope its full? OSHA Carbon Monoxide In Workplace Atmospheres (Direct-Reading Monitor) 3.a. Calibration 3.1.a. According to the manufacturer, "calibration must be performed at least on a monthly basis to keep the Model 190 Datalogger within published specifications"; however, for OSHA enforcement purposes, calibrate each time the monitors are used. Verification Of Calibration for Direct-Reading Portable Gas Monitors OSHA Link Gas monitoring instruments are designed to protect personnel from unseen hazards that may exist in workplace environments, including confined spaces. It is vital to worker safety that these instruments are maintained and calibrated properly. Instrument inaccuracy due to improper or irregular calibration can lead to serious accidents. Exposure to excessive levels of toxic gas or an oxygen-deficient environment can cause workers serious illness and even death. Combustible gas explosions are often catastrophic, injuring or killing personnel and destroying property. The International Safety Equipment Association (ISEA), founded in 1933, is a trade association for manufacturers of protective equipment, including environmental monitoring instruments. The ISEA recommends, at a minimum, verification of sensor accuracy before each day’s use. The only way to guarantee that an instrument will detect gas accurately and reliably is to test it with a known concentration of gas. Exposing the instrument to a known concentration of test gas will show whether the sensors respond accurately and whether the instrument alarms function properly. If the instrument’s reference point has shifted, the reading will shift accordingly and be unreliable. This is called "calibration drift" and it happens to all detectors over time. An instrument that experiences calibration drift can still measure the quantity of gas present but it cannot convert this information into an accurate numerical reading. Regular calibration with a certified standard gas concentration will update the instrument’s reference point, ensuring that the instrument will produce continued, accurate readings. In the past, there often has been confusion regarding proper calibration procedures and frequency. To clarify this issue, the International Safety Equipment Association (ISEA) issued a position statement on instrument calibration that states, "A bump test or full calibration of direct-reading portable gas monitors should be made before each day’s use in accordance with manufacturer’s instructions, using an appropriate test gas." If the instrument fails a bump test, it must be adjusted through a full calibration before it is used.

Link as requested PUBLIC LAW 109–308 In multiple meetings with FEMA, SEMO and the Red Cross they all have refered to both this law and the reason behind it (that people will not evacuate to a shelter and leave pets behind). Notice they consider pets & service animals to be the same.