Bnechis

There is a plan in place. The career depts in So. Westchester have drilled in NYC annually on it for the last 5+ years. FDNY still wants a check in at Yonkers Raceway for accountability, but that is only taking about 15-20 minutes. Part of that is they may not want us deploying to station A, when they need us at X. Its easier to make that call then.

And the Director of Homeland Security does not oversee EMS. The county ran at least 12 mass decon classes for the volunteer Fire & EMS agencies. Very good turnout from volunteer fire. Actually everyone was shocked at how good the turnout was. The VAC's were a no-show. They were called....no response. They were offered training at their buildings for there schedule (day, evening, weekend)...no response, so they were never trained in mass decon. Good thing we are "key" in a terror attack. Anyone know how many taxpayers commute to NYS each day, that in an attack might be coming back contaminated? How many are volunteers in Westchester, is another interesting question.

Paging for any available driver for the bioattack, anyone, Bueller? Bueller? Note: this is not to respond into NYC, we all know everyone would show for that, we want you to run a decon station in lets say Greenburgh. Oh thats right the 6 depts. there said they wanted nothing to due with being a mass decon unit (MDU) and they never got the training and the equipment that was "assigned" still sits at DES rotting.

What are you trying to filter with this? 1) Do you really think this will stop CO & cyanide? And we still need O2. 2) Have you actually tried with SCBA on, gloves on, helmet on in dark conditions and under extreme presure (while still in a drill) to do this? It one thing if you are trapped and its your last ditch effort to save your life, another to consider using it to push beyond the limits.

You are not the 1st to say filter breath, last time I saw that as a viable option the SCBA's still had low pressure hoses that you could stuff into your long coat (that went with the 3/4 boots). Most places abandoned these before you were born. Very few FD's have filters that work with Scott 4.5 or that handle CO, cyanide and none deal with limited O2. And if they have them are they carried on every call?

I was originaly going to say that you should be on your radio giving unit/location/situation as using your PASS alarm as a primary communications tools is unaceptable. Till I went back and saw that I dont have a radio (which we have had for everyone for 20 years). The PASS just lets them know some one is not moving/introuble, you are not rellaying what you need. You also said, you you have limited manpower. So the big question is...Will someone becoming to help you? If you decided to continue the rescue and rely on others to grab you, your partner and the victim, are there potentially 6ff's coming? I suspect with "limited manpower" at best you might get 2-4. If thats the case the victim still dies and maybe you too. The real issue brought up in this scenario is do you have enough manpower and equipment to do the job? From reading these boards and seeing what is going on thruout our region, its a real scenario, because too many depts. do not have enough personnel in the critical first minutes, when this is going to happen. Now, we have trained and drilled something similar........Confined Space Rescue. (and we have documented actual cases where this is how it has worked). We send a search team in and they are "on the clock" at a predetermined time they are ordered out. When we start that training, you always hear "We almost have it...just a few more minutes". I have heard this from dozens of different depts, including many very experienced ff's. In the classes we show actual incidents where it took, multiple teams...1) to find, another to get them in a harness or drag sheet/stretcher, another to move them part way out and then a final team to get them the last bit. Why is this any different? A friend was involved in a fatal confined space incident were a civilian and a FF was killed. The FF tried to push it and ran out of air, took 1 breath and died. My friend was on the rescue team and it took 6 entries to remove the FF. The contracter was not even attempted because of the down time. My friend had a SCBA (actually a SAR) malfunction and told me he almost did not make it out. He always said how important it was to consider it may take more than 1 crew and if you have to back out, give the next crew the location or in this case you might need to swap the bottle and go back your self. This is not the emotional answer we would all like to give but, how is any different than the issue of flying thru intersection to get there faster? If you do not get there how are you helping? If the IC now has to divert resources to get you...who is going to save the victim and what kind of delay is it. All depends on what is burning. Since we know that there are levels of CO & Cynide that will disable you in one breath....maybe it will. We will never know but how many LODD's occured because of just a few hits of toxic chemical.

Interesting equipment list. While I am a strong advocate of standardizing units, some of there are a few questions as Its already dated. If my engine does not have a 5,000 watt generator, its not an engine? The last 2 engines I bought, 1 had a generator (E-25) the other (E-21) does not. Because of 12 volt LED floods, the one without the generator has more lighting. Not much different between a squad & a heavy rescue. Why does a ladder company need 150' x 1.5" hose and lots of addaptors? Since both NFPA & ISO have "minimum" lists, why have a local list that is less than national standard. Does having a "minimum" list instead of a "recommended" list, will some depts opt for the minimum? Why not make the national standard the minimum and do a recommended list that is higher as a long term goal for improvement?

NRPD CIU does not provide "rescue services". It does provide SWAT, Animal Control, EDP and is trained to work with the FD to operate in Level A hazmat/WMD for law enforcment related hot zone entry. THe Police Commissioner was head of NYPD SOD (Which includes ESU, Aviation, SCUBA, Harbor and?). When he came to NR, the City council made it clear that there would be no duplication of services or intra department squabiling. So no "ESU".

Since they were using portable pumps on the dock, they would have worked (supplied by those pumps) to boost the flow 2-3 times. I cant find any good pics, but here is what I do have and maybe in spring, will do a drill and will record it. The power unit we have is the white box (with the little vent holes) on the rear officers side. It is a larger unit (about 2' x 3' x 5') that is configured to run 2) 800gpm pumps and 2) 40cfm air reels and 2) 185cfm air reels. I have been told that if it was configured without the air it could be configured for 3) 800gpm pumps. We have 2) 100' dual hydralic hoses to run it. We got the idea from a smaller unit: This unit is about 4' x 1.5' x 1.5' and has about 1/2 the ability 1) 800gpm pump, 1) 40cfm & 1 185cfm. I think it could be configured for just 2) 800gpm pumps. The pumps are Stanley TP08 Trash Pumps They are PTO powered.

Great point. Now how many depts use this port to power the venturi to transfer water from one folding tank to another? ISO reduces your attack GPM by 250GPM for each outlet that is used for moving water that is not directly attacking the fire. A portable pump can be used or depts that really know how to move water use multiple squirrel tail suctions and they do not waste time or effort in moving water between tanks. Another great point, and it works even better if you have a foot valve on the strainer. The most impressive depts at moving water with limited manpower set up their supply engine with up to 4 squirrel tail suctions; 2 per side, a 24' x 6" preconnected (to both the the pump and the strainer) and a 24' x 3" preconnected suction. They also carry an additional 24' of suction hose to extend the horizontal distance. This set up allows the pump operator (by himself) to deploy suction lines to a water source or if the attack unit from a portable pond. The reason they wanted the 3" line is its very fast to deploy and gives about 400gpm, which is enough to support most attacks. As needed they can boost up the flows and they also deploy them in up to 4 folding tanks and instead of transfering water from one to one, they jugle the intake valves based on which one has the most water. Another great point. The front suction, in most cases, should be removed from dept spec's. It adds $25,000 - $35,000 to the cost of an engine. You can lose up to 25% pump capacity. They have a history of requiring expensive repairs. I also see many depts buy them, not preconnect them and never even use them. Finally they commonly force the nose in and the tail out on the engine, which can block additional apparatus from the scene.

Ok lets play the numbers that have been posted so far: 53 VFDs responding to 26,659 calls. About 6 listed that included EMS. The average FD did 560 calls.(38 depts did less). If I drop 50% of the calls of the 6 depts that claimed EMS the average drops to 472 calls per year per dept. Now the 8 career depts that posted (note: the 3 busiest in Westchester are not included). Did 88,852 calls or an average of 11,107 per dept. What was interesting is that the slowest unit in Bridgeport (Batt 2) still did more calls than the average VFD. Most of their units did 2-6x the call volume. Now the total call volume # is really useless..... What is usefull is the breakdown: Fires, MVAs, rescues, AFA, HM, good Intent, etc. (maybe next time we will be bold enough to ask for those numbers). Now lets round the number to 500 and what is the breakdown (consider the following approx %): 250 for smells & bells (50%) 50 MVA's 75 HM (odor of gas, fuel spill, CO alarm etc.) 25 rescue 50 Good Intent 50 Other (including MA, Fires, service calls, etc.) and buried in there are the EMS calls that were not broken out for those that do them. How many actual working fires do you actually get? Most of the career depts. (including FDNY) have stated that the fire calls are way down and its very hard for members to get enough experience. So here is the real question: With these numbers how is it possable to get enough experience to perform well and more importantly to become a chief officer? I expect some will just attack me as this is another career vs. volly dig...but there are small career/combo depts that did the same volume of calls and the question is for them as well. This is something that needs to be looked at by every FF and every dept. because its about quality that comes from quantity. Note: the numbers that were posted as EMS agencies or EMS calls for FD's I did not include as it was too small a group.

Agreed and infact I think the VFD's will actually see more benefits in terms of manpower than the career depts. Great questions. 1st Every community involved in a potential consolidation needs to be anylized. What FD resources already exist, Stations, apparatus, personnel. The road network and the call volume and type and the water system. If this is done well, honestly with no bias, then good planing can determine what the needs are and what direction to take the consolidation. Once there is a general agreement to consolidate, response patterns need to be set up and SOP's and training on how things need to work. 2nd to answer how it would work is not possible till #1 is completed. But I will give some possabilities; in the case of the 14 call dept. I believe they are in a very unusual position. If I have the right FD, they are a very small village located within a very large park. They do not have any boardering FD's So they might not have the ability to consolidate and actually change anything. Now as a hypothetical answer, if Dept. "A" has 1 station with 2 engines and a ladder, dept. "B" has 2 stations with 3 engines, 1 rescue and a ladder and dept. "c" has 1 station with 3 engines and a rescue. They are all 1-2 square miles. Consolidated dept XYZ might only need 3 engines (+ 1 spare), 1 Rescue and 1 ladder (+ 1 spare). And they only need 3 stations, but to keep everyone happy they might keep all 4. The new dept might look like this: XYZ FD Co. "A" staffs 1 engine (they store the ladder as the dept spare) XYZ FD Co. "B" staffs 1 engine, 1 rescue at one station XYZ FD Co. "B2" staffs 1 ladder at the other station. XYZ FD CO. "C" staffs 1 engine (they store an engine as the dept spare) The responds 1 engine from the closest house for minor alarms. For MVA's add the rescue. For AFA, the closest 2 engines, 1 ladder & rescue. for reported fires; 3 engines, 1 ladder, 1 rescue from all houses. Keep the spares fully supplied so they can be swapped or used in a major emergency. But we can now reduce the fleet by 4 engines & a rescue. Or maybe we convert the rescue to a collapse unit and convert 1 engine to a foam or special water supply unit. Personnel wise, Co. "A" use to average 6 ff's staffing 3 rigs, now they are running a 6 man engine they had 100 calls in the old district, but now they also get more calls in the other 2. same concept holds true for the other companies. Also now that you have 3x the pool, you might be able to set up special ops. Foam, Tech rescue, hazmat, dive, etc.

Isn't Campbell a scottish name? "Campbell is a Scottish family name of Gaelic origins. The name in some cases derives from the Scottish Clan Campbell, in other cases from Mac Cathmhaoil"

Very fair question. Like I said its a problem that our workers are way down but not our numbers. I can speak on those depts, because I know very little about how they operate, so I'll use mine. We are averaging about 8,000 runs per year and 50 workers. Because of manning cuts, on a worker we send atleast 4 engines & 2 trucks, that leaves 1&1. If its a 2nd alarm or greater, then every rig is there (plus call back). Our work chart is 4 groups so each group averages 13 workers, even with vacation time, our average member responds to 10 workers per year (not including mutual aid responses to other depts). If we beleive that 10 is not enough then, the depts running 2 or 1 or none and not everyone makes them are in real trouble. We do get more training as a group and all of those other runs (1,000's being AFA) we go in as a fire company, we get into the buildings in full gear, with standpipe packs & tools to check, we rarely hear the chief onscene sending everyone home (they often slow everyone down or turn back 2nd due, but 1st in units are expected to handle it as a fire till proven otherwise). This means we are drilling our teamwork and our sop assignments multiple times each day. No problem, I dont think any career guys see it as bashing. Because we are afraid of change. The only constant is change and my adgenda has been twofold, first to make sure that communities get the best service they can (and responders therefore get what they need to do the job and go home) and second; that the providers of the service control the direction of the service. My fear is that the longer we delay consolidation the more likely that we will just be a political football and we will have no say in what we are left with.

Does the High School Football team go over what they did well and what needs to be improved? If they do not, then they will make the same mistakes over and over. Do we question when pro ball players do it? How about when they pay millions for consultants to do? And how many of you watch any of the sports shows where they spend millions to analyze every aspect of the GAME? WE all accept that its important to do this so that we will win the next game, but improve emergency services, why would we want to do that? Is it realy important? What if next time we lose someone because we failed to learn? "Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it" - Winston Churchill We are seeing more litigation against chiefs for not meeting minimum standards (i.e. live burn). The standards for rural water supply were published in 1975 and have been updated every 4 years. The NYS courts have accepted NFPA as the minimum standards unless you can prove that you are using another state or nationally recognized standard. It just a matter of time before some smart insurance company or lawyers see the fire service as an untapped pot of gold (leaf).

Well said OV. You can increase the flow (an additional 150-300 ggpm) by using a portable pump drafting and delivering the 2.5" line to the turbo draft.

Great Question Two issues in moveing water are pressure & flow (or volume). Volume is needed to overcome the BTU's of a fire. Not enough water and the fire does not go out. Pressure is needed to move it. A good visual is when you put your finger over the end of the garden hose you increase the pressure and the water stream goes farther. In addition we need to over come both the friction loss in the hose and gravity (to lift it from the lake up to the engine and to send the water up ladders or even just shooting the water up onto the structure. Pumps are used to add pressure and overcome those two. Pumps work on 2 different principals. They push or they pull (sometimes both). In communities with a hydrant, the most important issue is volume, as the engine can add the pressure needed. If there is not enough volume, the pump operator may "suck the hydrant dry". This is very dangerious, because it can draw contaminents into the drinking water supply and rarer it can collapse the water mains. Higher pressure hydrants, reduce the need for pumping and extra high pressure hydrants do not require any pump. Without hydrants, most FD's must Draft. This is where you see the larger (often 6" and 16-24 feet long) hose running from the pond to the pump. When drafting, the pump creates a vacume in the hose and like a straw "sucks" the water up into the pump (it actually lowers the atmospheric pressure in the hose and the atmosphere pushes down on the pond forcing it up the hose). There are major limitations in drafting: Limited lift - At sea level the maximum theorytical lift is 33.9 feet. But for practical purposes about 25 feet is the best you can do. You are also limited in distance in most cases about 30-40' of horizontal draft (often limited because of hose available. So if you can not drive up to the edge of the pond it will not work. The next option in drafting is the dry hydrant. This is where a pipe is run from the water to the street and the engine can draft directly from it. All the same principals of drafting apply, but its much faster since its preplaned, the rig can fit and the pipe can be place a good distance from the edge of the pond. Portable pumps do the same at a smaller flow. The other option is using hydraulic pumps. This is the best way to get water out of a static source (pond, lake, ocean, pool, etc.). With a hydraulic pump the pump is dropped into the water, it is powered by 2 hydraulic hoses (each 3/4" - 1.5" based on pump size) the pump "Pushes" the water. The main advantages are: 1)The lift can be 90 feet or higher (so you can just drop this off a bridge). 2)The power source for the hydraulics can be 100-200 feet away from the water. 3)The pumps are generally small & can be carried to the water by 1 man. Our system uses 2 pumps (each 810gpm) and weight 65 pounds each. The hoses are on reels and the pumps can be preconnected. So deployment takes fewer people and is much faster. There are also many ways to speed up the drafting set up and to reduce the manpower needed to draft (I have watched 1 man set ups). While around here its 3, 4 or more. The sad thing is too many in the region do not even know what they do not know. If the amount of work that is put into buying rig for the parade was placed in preplaning, we would save the community millions of dollars and there would be nothing to "monday morning quarterback" Most of this was spelled out in NFPA 1231 back in 1975. It should be manditory reading for everyone without hydrants. Hopefully this all made sense.

What's the difference between God and a Fire Chief? God does not think he is a Fire Chief.

Is this in the FEDERAL Department of Homeland Security or the states Office of Homeland Security? I would assume its the later.

Can fire prevention programs actually prevent things like a lightning strike? Or the malfunction of electrical equipment (even if properly used/maintained)?....No So maybe the real reason they have not had any fires is because they cover too small an area. That means that statisticly they will go for x number of years between fires. We have many neighborhoods in my city that are the same size as each of those depts. And we have not had a worker in any of them in 2 or more years. But because we cover 10x the area we will have a number of workers each year and that helps maintain our skills.

You got to love it!!!!

Its not about "never happening again" Most home owners do not have a clue about fire protection, if the FD did not advise them that they need it and also that the insurance company will reduce there premiums if they put it in who will tell tham? How do you expect the homeowner to be proactive about fire protection if the fire dept isnt? I few years back I was visiting my Mom in No. California. They have no hydrants and the closest water source is a very poor hydrant system 2 miles away, plus local FD & CDF have Tenders (tankers out there are airplanes). They have a 35,000 gallon swiming pool, but its to far off the road to get a truck close. The pool was drained for work and they had a backhoe digging up their driveway. I told my mom I was going to "fix" things and it might cost her $1,000 but it would be worth it. She was not sure about this idea. I went to the local building supply and got 250' x 6" PVC pipe and we dug a trench from the pool to the curb. I called the local FD and asked about thread size they used, then called Kotchek and got the strainer and dry hydrant parts shipped next day. When it was done they said that due to a severe draught they could not fill the pool and it would cost way to much to truck the water in from Nevada. I called the local FD and asked the chief if he would like a water supply on their road. He came out 15 minutes later, looked it over and said no problem, within 30 minutes FD tenders were filling the pool. No cost to my mom and then I told here to call her insurance company & tell them about the water source. They lowered the cost for the house, the barn & most important they also lowered the crop insurance. The savings were over $2,000/yr. Mom's happy, Fire Chief is happy and I know if they are much safer.

If something had been done he closest dry hydarant would have been closer than 1 mile away. and Depts. would have turbo drafts (which have been around the fire service since at least the 1950's) and depts would look at hydraulic pumps for rural water supply. Thats how its done in Europe (they do not use and tankers) and now FDNY has it (in case they lose hydrants). I have talked about it for years, but very few depts even understand it. The unit is the size of a skid pump, will fit in a pick-up costs about $40,000 and will deliver 2,400gpm without drafting, from 100-200' away from the pump with lifts up to 90 feet. If anyone wants to see it, give me a call, we have one. The larger units will deliver 2,000gpm up to 2 miles with out relay pumping. Thats 1 rig and it costs less than a class A pumper and to pack up the 2 milues of hose requres only a 3 man crew. According to the radio reports it took them 28 minutes to find a water source. They should be marked out and maped out 31 years ago. Thats how rural FD's get ISO ratings of 4. At 49 minutes E113 anounced they were establishing a water supply (relay) but after 11 minutes 2403 said he would run the adapter down to them. If you do not have the equipment to use the hydrants (wet or dry) what good are they? This issue did not just occur at the time of the fire, its been out there since the day they installed the hydrant. After 72 minutes on scene they relized that PD cars were interfering with tanker ops. This was not noticed for 72 minutes? At 112 minutes on scene they started to establish a 1.5 mile 5" line (E112) 20 minutes later the source engine (E113) announced they were ready to flow water. They got to the hydrant at 1421 hours and they were ready to flow water at 1556 hours....thats 1 hour and 35 minutes to hook up a hydrant. 12 minutes later E142 said they were ready for the water. Now this line was laid so as it blocked out the tankers, so at the 2 hour 26 minute mark any water supply you had was elliminated. at 1613 water is flowing from E113 and 7 minutes later its realized that there is not enough pump pressure for this water source to work. so 31 minutes later its shut down so E140 can be added to the "relay". Why wasent this done from the start? This is basic pump operators class. One of the best relay tricks I have seen is pre-established distance markers from a water source, Its great to watch 4 rigs simultaniously dropping different sections of a relay and all works. At 2 hour 40 minutes on-scene Bat 13 announced they had good water. Its amazing the house lasted as long as it did.

Hey probie, you seem to have it all figured out. Do you have any idea how a fire should go? Just remember All the critics include the entire insurance industry. They told this home owner that because the FD score 10% on an open book test they get to pay an extra 40-50% for insurance every year since 1981 (actually on the previous home back to the 1920's) compared to depts that are within 25 miles of them. You should be amazed, I am stunned at how backwards we really are. There is more water than you could ever need 50' off the road, less than 400' from the front door. But more than a half dozen departments have no idea how to use it. When I was a probie, every instructor I had said, "if you want to be a good fire fighter, then shut your mouth and open yours ears....maybe, just maybe you will learn something" We did not have the internet then...so now its fingers & eyes instead of mouth and ears.

ISO does not consider time, they look at distances (see last post) ISO gives zero credit for mutual aid. They give 90% or greater credit for automatic aid on the initial call.