Bnechis

What does Federal Tax law say? Earnings are taxed, volunteering can be a right-off in amny cases. Interesting, different parts of the federal government look at this differently.

Slipping on Ice on a fire call is not a dispute. And I have worked EMS a lot closer to home than the middle east, where they settle things with a knife and gun

It is considered an autodialling alarm system which is illegal in many communities. I suspect they dont tell you that on the packaging.

While ISO does not use the terms career and volunteer, the MAJOR distinction they use is onduty (in the fire station) and oncall (at home, work or anywhere but the firehouse) and yes volunteer depts are rated the same as career IF they respond with inhouse crews 24/7. Now while all the things you listed as going into the rating are true, the single biggest point catagory is personnel and its the only catagory ISO has that is unlimited. ISO wants a minimum of 2 engines and 1 ladder (or service company) on every fire call and at a minimum they want 4 firefighters (&or officers) per rig plus an IC. Now if you respond with onduty personnel you get 1.0 points for each, if you are using "oncall" members you get 0.33 points for each. so to get the same personnel rating you need 36 firefighters (&/or officers) + IC. The 2nd biggest point area is for training and the way they calculate the training is they take every members hours and average them over the number of members. Since most departments do not meet the 290 hours per year per memebr average for inservice training and ISO will include the VFD's 75 y/o active members annual training in the average (even if they no longer fight fire) you are fighting a big uphill battle as well. Another component of the training requirement that is not commonly performed by VFD's is Fire Inspection & Prefire planning of all commercial and multi dwellings in its district. Also, ISO requires a minimum of 240 hours for new fire fighter training and 40 hours of new driver training. So 48% of the Fire Dept. ISO rating is for personnel & training. You can not make up for a poor score here with shinny trucks. Would you also consider the 1,100 paid "housemen" in Long Island VFD's to be part of this? 1) I agree that the priority of the leadership should be the public's welfare, I find this is commonly not the priority. Last month I was sitting in a public hearing where the chairman of the Fire board publicly told the mayor and council that they did not want the anyone outside the FD to know how bad ISO said they were, in fact he felt it was none of the publics buisness to know. I wonder if he would have said that if he knew the cameras were running. 2) Do you include LOSAP in your incentive programs that created an environment in which that competency has improved? I know there are many volunteers here who have posted here that they hurt the depts more than they help. Wow lets compare apples with oranges: New City (a Hamlet within Clarkstown) Population: 35,168 15.6 miles, 2254 people per mile Income 2x state average at $111,747 Per capita income $46,000 Over 50% have BA degrees, 91% HS Deplomas 20% minority, 70% married Unemployment (3/2011) 6.5% - Below state average Hackensack Population: 42,839 4.12 miles 10,398 people per mile Income $59,504 (20% below state average). Per capita $31,523 29% have BA degrees, 79% HS Deplomas 67% minority 42% married Unemployment (3/2011) 10.1% - Above state average Now lets compare Fire Departments: New City: 2 eng, 1 TL, 1 tanker, 1 brush Ambulance: No EMS 1st Response: No Hazmat: No, (provided by county) TRT: No, (provided by county) Hackensack: 5 eng, 2 lad, 2 amb, 1 rescue, 2 TRT units Ambulance: Yes EMS 1st Response: Yes Hazmat: Yes TRT: Yes Now lets not forget that New City is a Hamlet within the Town of Clarkstown. Clarckstown has a population of 82,777 And has in addition to the New City Fire Dept: The Central Nyack FD, Congers FD, Nanuet FD, Rockland Lake FD, Valley Cottage FD and the West Nyack FD. Plus EMS provided by additional services and not the FD's. So the New City FD spends $3,000,000 Less than HFD. They are not providing the same service level and the community is a very different type of community. I do not know how much all of those other FD's end up costing, but $3 million is sounding cheap. Now what really counts to the tax payer is what the pay for service each year: The median property tax in New City is in 2009 was $9,015 and in Hackensack it was $6,430. I think I would rather pay $2,500 les per year. Note: I am not trying to say anything negative about either dept. just they are clearly apples and oranges. LOL...recently was 20 years ago. This report had more incorrect info than anything I have ever read. The money was based on the replacing 100% of the volunteers with career. So in one case a 150 member volunteer dept covering 1.5 square miles with 2 engines, 1 ladder & 1 rescue would need to build a new career fire station, buy 2 eng, 1, lad & 1 rescue (even though the rigs & station were owned by the village) and then hire 150 firefighters. Now multiply this by the 2,000 VFD's in the state and what a shock it would cost $2.9 billion. Now if we dropped the number only in half (75 career), that would give us an onduty shift of 15 members 24/7. Thats more than double the shift of every career dept covering this size community. Based on these 2 sentences, the FASNY study is inflated by $1.45 Billion and that does not include the 2,000 new fire stations and 5,000 new apparatus they think the tax payers would have to buy. They also fail to mention the costs of LOSAP, House men, meals and other existing costs that would no longer be needed.

Slipped on Ice, who would have thought it might get icy on a driveway in New Hampshire? Live Free or Die....and if that does not work for you....SUE.

The 4 cities (MV, NR, WP & Y) are prohibited from using any testing other than the testing approved by the Federal courts (in 1980). All of the probies from those depts still have to pass CPAT to complete probation.

Another issue that the Gov. and other politician who are pushing this plan have yet to mention is the Tier 6 plan does not cover disabilities or death. It also does not offer the employeer the protection of 207a or c. That means employees who get hurt are 1) on there own and 2) they can sue the municipality as the politicians are proposing to remove the municipal savfeguards to "save" money. Those of you who want to get jobs as firefighters or police officers, teachers, public works...etc. Will you still want the job or if you take the job, will you put yourself in harms way knowing that the community does not have your back? Is this really going to solve our economic problem or is it just one more talking point for Cuomo's 1016 Presidential Run?

NYCRR Part 426 You are right. But how many other services are people willing to pay for without any knowledge of that service? When you need a new Doctor, do most people look to see if they are qualified? What about getting references? or a 2nd opinion? How many taxpayers have any clue if the local FD has the personnel, equipment & training needed to get the job done? How many Mayors, Council members, Managers have a clue? How many firefighters know if their depts is worth what ever it costs? How many firefighters even know what the cost of fire protection is? The tax payers also rely on the FD leadership to insure that legal requirements and regulations (including minimum training standards) are meet, but we all know that some depts do it and others do not. So when the public see's "100% Volunteer" on the side of the engine, they should know that the dept. of labor says they are volunteers, even if they are paid on call?

I agree, but that would make a lot of NYS "members of fire departments" nothing more than lawn furniture wearing turn outs. If they do not meet the standards they are not firefighters.

Yes, but if you do not have a cost recovery system in place BEFORE the incident, you are so far behind the 8 ball, you may be out of luck. Also removing it from the site, may become an issue that the "spiller" will use to fight the bill.

So its being allowed to consume itself. It either can be deconned or it needs to be properly disposed of and since its off site, it will be harder to get the responsable party to pay for it.

So what happens when the XYZ alarm company calls either 60 control or the local FD 3 (answered by local PD), they tone the dept. and no one responds? What does the dispatcher do next? There is an expectation from the tax payer that when called (directly or by an alarm co.) that someone will respond. We have beat up on the concept of PD "check and advise" or the chief only response and not sending apparatus, but what happens when no one responds? Can mutual aid be dispatched/respond without being formally requested? That opens some additional liability questions. What liability is on the fire district or municipality (note: I did not include the dept. just the AHJ)?

So this topic died pretty quick, I guess that means either most depts have had plans inplace and ALL members are aware of them and have been trained as required by law for the last 26 years or we will worry about it once we have been contaminated and lose our gear, apparatus and health.

Yes it is unrealistic for the public to think that they get high quality service in the highest taxed county in the nation. We just keep fooling them...and ourselves.

6 years ago I wrote that what it would take is either a major disaster or the state forcing the issue. Well the state has given us a tax cap, which is forcing almost everyone at a minimum to consider how it spends its money. I know of a dozen depts that are already cutting back. A few considering cutting manning. In the past year 2 depts had lay offs, another had threats of it. We have combo depts. that have zero volunteers, but think they can cover the town with 2 or 3 career members. We have publicly seen depts. lose homes because they can not put a team on the field, others because they can not find the hydrant, others who have lose members because they did not want to train and follow OSHA laws. We have a local fire district that want to build new stations, after the public has said no, and the dept has no plan to staff the house. A few weeks ago I was at a town council meeting and the FD "leadership" stated: "we know we suck, but as long as the public does not know, it fine".... Last week at a county fire marshals training class 4 different fire inspectors from 4 different towns asked: "what should the town do when the FD can not get a rig out the door or even 1 member to respond to a fire alarm"? This is not an attack on firefighters, officers, volunteers, career, commissioners. It is an attack on a system that is a total failure. Yes there are some great depts here...but if you average them out county wide the numbers suck. We have hit the iceburg, we all know there are not enought lifeboats but instead of working to save what we can, we would rather go down with the ship.

That could never happen here...because we .......... (fill in the blank)

The AHJ, Chief and IC. Thats why the law requires all fireifghters to have hazmat operations level training (at a minimum) and all departments are required by law to have emergency response plans and they must be available to all employees (members). 1910.120(q)(1) Emergency response plan. An emergency response plan shall be developed and implemented to handle anticipated emergencies prior to the commencement of emergency response operations. The plan shall be in writing and available for inspection and copying by employees, their representatives and OSHA personnel. Employers who will evacuate their employees from the danger area when an emergency occurs, and who do not permit any of their employees to assist in handling the emergency, are exempt from the requirements of this paragraph if they provide an emergency action plan in accordance with 29 CFR 1910.38. 1910.120(q)(2) Elements of an emergency response plan. The employer shall develop an emergency response plan for emergencies which shall address, as a minimum, the following areas to the extent that they are not addressed in any specific program required in this paragraph: 1910.120(q)(2)(i) Pre-emergency planning and coordination with outside parties.. 1910.120(q)(2)(ii) Personnel roles, lines of authority, training, and communication. 1910.120(q)(2)(iii) Emergency recognition and prevention. 1910.120(q)(2)(iv) Safe distances and places of refuge. 1910.120(q)(2)(v) Site security and control. 1910.120(q)(2)(vi) Evacuation routes and procedures. 1910.120(q)(2)(vii) Decontamination. 1910.120(q)(2)(viii) Emergency medical treatment and first aid. 1910.120(q)(2)(ix) Emergency alerting and response procedures. 1910.120(q)(2)(x) Critique of response and follow-up. 1910.120(q)(2)(xi)PPE and emergency equipment. Yes, it needs to be tested if it has been contaminated and decontaminated. But 1st one needs to try to determine what the contamination is. Can it be deconned and/or is it even can it be made safe for firefighting? I remember an incident upstate, involving farm chemicals and it was determined that the only way to decon "cloth" would damage the flame properties of turnouts. Basicly if you deconned it so it was safe for people to wear it would become flammable. Dept. requesting the mutual aid. This is a great reason for setting up a hazardous materials cost recovery program (in advance) because the property owner is legal responsable for all remediation cost. This was the big fight with FASNY sponsered legislation this fall, because it limited a depts ability to recover these costs. Luckily the Cuomo vetoed it. Good start, but if it has not been deconned, it maybe deteriorating. Hopefully they determined the rigs are ok. If not, they should not have left the incident scene, because they will then contaminate the fire stations, other rigs and other members, etc.

I have never heard of this type of insurance, like any other insurance, you can get it, but more likely a dept. or municipal reserve fund would do the same basic thing. More importantly NYS General Municipal Law 209-g is pretty clear: § 209-g. Liability for outside aid. 1. Notwithstanding any inconsistent provision of law, general, special or local, any county, city, town, village or fire district requesting fire aid pursuant to section two hundred nine-e of this chapter or any county, city, town or village requesting police aid pursuant to section two hundred nine-f of this chapter, shall be liable and responsible to the assisting municipal corporation or fire district for any loss of or damage to apparatus or equipment or supplies and shall bear and pay the expense incurred in the operation and maintenance of any apparatus or equipment and the cost of materials and supplies used or consumed in rendering such aid and assistance, but such liability and responsibility shall not apply or extend to apparatus, equipment, materials and supplies owned or supplied by the state. 2. The state or assisting municipal corporation or fire district in such case shall be liable for salaries or other compensation to the assisting forces furnished during the time they shall not be performing their duties for the state or for the assisting municipal corporation or fire district and shall defray the actual traveling and maintenance expense of such assisting forces while they are rendering such aid and assistance, but the receiving municipal corporation or fire district shall reimburse the assisting municipal corporation or fire district for any moneys paid for such salaries or other compensation and traveling and maintenance expense. Any such claim for loss, damage, expense or cost shall not be allowed unless within sixty days after the same shall have been sustained or incurred a written notice of such claim, under oath, itemizing such loss, damage, expense or cost, is served by mail or otherwise upon the comptroller or chief fiscal officer of such receiving municipal corporation or fire district. An assisting municipal corporation or fire district may assume any such loss, damage, expense or cost or loan such equipment and apparatus or donate such services to the receiving municipal corporation or fire district without charge or cost. 3. A county, city, town, village or fire district shall be liable for all payments to be made to or on behalf of injured volunteer firemen or to representatives of deceased volunteer firemen pursuant to and in accordance with the provisions of the volunteer firemen's benefit law. The amount so paid by a town shall be assessed in the manner provided in such law. 4. Neither the state nor the civil or political subdivision of the state whose police or fire forces or employees are engaged in rendering such outside aid and assistance pursuant to any request for aid and assistance or pursuant to direction of the governor or other official or agency authorized by, or pursuant to law so to direct shall be liable or accountable in any way or on account of any act or omission on the part of any officer or member of such forces or of any such employee while so engaged or for or on account of the operation, maintenance or use of any apparatus, equipment, materials or supplies in connection therewith, nor shall any sheriff be held liable or accountable in any way for or on account of any act or omission on the part of any of his deputies within or without the county of their appointment where such deputies are under the command of an officer other than himself. 5. Notwithstanding any inconsistent provision of law, general, special or local, (a) any county whose sheriff, or in the county of Nassau the county executive, declared a state of special emergency within his county pursuant to section two hundred nine-f of this chapter, which resulted in men and/or equipment being furnished by the sheriff of another county for use in the county of the sheriff, or in the county of Nassau the county executive, declaring the state of emergency, shall be liable and responsible to the county of the assisting sheriff for salaries or other compensation paid or due the persons comprising the assisting forces during the time they were engaged in performing services in the county of the requesting sheriff, or in the county of Nassau the county executive, and for all loss or damage to apparatus, equipment and supplies used or consumed by the persons comprising such assisting forces in rendering aid and assistance in the county of the requesting sheriff, or in the county of Nassau the county executive, provided an itemized claim therefor is submitted in writing to the chief fiscal officer of the county of the requesting sheriff, or in the county of Nassau the county executive, within sixty days after the termination of such an emergency. An assisting county may, however, assume any such cost, loss or damage, and all payments made or to be made to or on behalf of such persons comprising such assisting forces or to representatives of deceased persons who comprised such assisting forces pursuant to and in accordance with the provisions of any applicable law, rule or ordinance, including the workmen's compensation law which shall be deemed to be applicable. Neither the county whose sheriff responded with men and/or equipment to a request for assistance made by another sheriff who declared a state of special emergency, or in the county of Nassau the county executive, nor a responding sheriff or employee of the responding county, shall be liable or accountable in any way for any act or omission on the part of any person during the continuance of any such emergency, including but not restricted to the operation, maintenance or use of any apparatus, equipment or supplies in connection therewith, nor shall any sheriff be held liable or accountable in any way for or on account of any act or omission on the part of any of his deputies within or without the county of their appointment where such deputies are under the command of any person other than himself, and ( the city, town or village receiving police aid pursuant to section two hundred nine-f of this chapter shall assume the liability for all damages arising out of any act performed in rendering such aid and shall reimburse the assisting city, town, village, parkway police force, state park police force and/or county police department for any moneys paid by it for salaries or for other expenses incurred by it, including damage to or loss of equipment and supplies. An assisting city, town, village, parkway police force, state park police force and/or county police department may, however, assume in whole or in part any such cost, loss, damage or other cost or charge sustained or suffered by it which is applicable to its rendering such aid, by taking appropriate action to accomplish the same, and the county of the receiving city, town or village may, by appropriate action, elect to obligate itself to pay all or part of any money which such receiving municipality is obliged to pay arising out of and applicable to its having received such aid, and c) a regular, part time or special deputy sheriff of a county shall not, for any reason, lose or forfeit any right, benefit or privilege which he would have had in the county of his residence by becoming and/or acting as an emergency special deputy sheriff of another county during an emergency.

So does pouring water on a commercial roof* from 75'-100' feet up, but put the bucket at the curb and attack the underside of the roof through the bay window will actually do something. * read " a water proof structure that is designed to shead water.

There are many communities around here that own an aerial but; 1) They never get it on the road 2) By the time they get it on the road, the hose is already down and they park it up the block 3) They do not have the staffing to do anything but drive it to the scene and park it, because they are needed on the line. 4) And my fav.....They get there fast with manpower and the chief says: "Keep the truck out, we do not want it to block out the engines" (I heard this a 3 different working fires). How many depts. own a truck vs. how many have a truck company?

Now we have talked about the mandated levels, let us take a look at the recommended training levels. The current ISO training requirements are listed below. They have been in effect for 30 years, but I found very similar requirements from them from the 1930’s. Multi-company Drills - All members will attend at least 8) 3 hour drills per year. Company Drills - Each member will attend 20 hours per month. Note: Company Drill hours include individual member training. Officer Training - All officers will attend 4) 3 hours sessions per year. This is in addition to the above training requirements. Driver Training – (Includes hands on pump operations and aerial ladder operation) All drivers must attend monthly 1 1/2 hour drills. New Drivers - Training is 50/50 hands on and classroom. All new drivers must attend monthly 2 hour sessions plus twice yearly 8 hour sessions. HAZ MAT - All personnel must attend one 3 hour hazmat or radiological monitoring class per year. New Firefighters - All rookies are required to complete NFPA 1001 in one year which requires 240 hours (according to ISO) of independent training (not including company or multi company drills). All training time must be recorded on a sign in sheet and the content of the training documented. Also considered “Training” by ISO is Pre-fire Plans and Company Inspections. All members shall walk through a certain number of buildings each month and eventually every commercial and public building twice each year (ISO has relaxed this to annually by the 1st due companies, it is also understood that only a percentage of the company will walk-thru each building, but each building will be covered and members will rotate buildings so over the course of a few years each member will visit every building). Each apparatus is required to have complete pre-fire plan “book” with up to date info of all buildings.

That depends on the culture of the department. Their are depts that put in substantial hours per month, there are others that do almost nothing.

So then the big question is did the YHFD board of commissioners do this?

So if they have not raised the tax, where did the millions come from? Since these are % changes, is it possible that they are charging to much for the base and thats how they can get away with not increasing the base, but still putting millions aside? And if thats the case, they have been over charging for a long time.

Ok, it may not be sneaky, but it was not using "existing funds". The taxpayers were very vocal in there opposition. They voted no bond, but they also stated "NO FIRE STATION". They had protests and there were letters to the papers etc. about this. The board of commissioners said they would build it anyway and found millions of tax payer money to do it. Now thats after they had already purchased the land. Where did those millions come from....they raised the operating budget (i.e. raised the tax rate) over the last 5-10 years and took the money from the homeowners. Now if it is true that the fire department (not the district) can not provide proper staffing for this station, the district should return the money to the tax payers who were over charged. I have no problem with the commissioners forward thinking on the need for a 3rd station. And often the community will fight against a new and very needed station (this is the same community that will fight to keep it once its established). But this does not appear to be the time to build a fire station, fill it with apparatus and not have the staff to operate and maintain it.