Bnechis

Yes, the NYSUFP&BC requires it. The 1st pic recieved a violation, the hydrant was repainted (yellow) by the water company and "someone" repainted it green again. So he got a court appearance ticket and fined by the courts. Its yellow once again.

How many are in hydrant areas and will do anything to get rid of them?

The term "Re-Kindle" should never be used. How can a fire that is extingushed, "Re-Kindle"? It can not. When a fire occurs in the same structure hours (or days) later, one of three things has occured: 1) The arrsonest returned to complete the job 2) The fire dept. did a poor job of overhaul and missed something (most common with a smells & bells or a small "room & content" incident) 3) The fire dept. made a determination that after a major fire (often with collapse) that there were no exposure issues and no way to do overhaul (without heavy equipment) and often it was in the best interest of the safety of the members to regroup and wait. Based on the size of this fire...sounds like #3. so it was not a "Re-Kindle".

Thats because the law does not require them and the majority of the fire service has not pushed for change.

While that may be true, you can not get parts from them. We have had to make replacement outrigger jack cylinders, door handles and dashboard/engine cover parts. We have had parts on back order for over 9 months. I wish WPFD good luck, even if ALF stays in the game, its going to be a long hard ride.

"You get what you pay for" So for the past 5 years they saved money by not paying for enough public safety. Now they have lost their homes and the contents from fire or from looting. Even after the insurance payments, they will have spent more by the time all is said and done....and then the premiums will go up.

Very Well!Said. Now consider I wrote this in the IFD thread (some one said the state sets the standard): "FASNY has always complained that the training requiremens are too much, so OFPC reduced the number of hours in the FF1 class. OFPC for 20 years said it took at least 15 hours to teach the NYS and Federally mandated Hazmat Operations course. When the current FF1 class came out the kept the 15 hours of material and only allow for 3 hours to cover it. Since NYS Law says all firefighters (not vol, not career, not interior, not exterior, but ALL Firefighters) must be certified by their employer (and the courts have ruled that VFD's are employer for this) prior to responding to ANY Calls. So if you only follow NYS and your members have not had at least another 12 hours (inhouse) they are in violation of the law." When I was told to cover 15 hours of material in 3 hours, I said this was just wrong and someone was going to get hurt, killed or a stupid error with hazmat could wipe out a dept or a community (look up the Summerville MA incident, where they kept putting more and more water on the product, until the whole area needed to be evacuated). I was then told I could teach the 15 hours as a stand alone course, but we could not include it in the FF1. With the current number of hours in FF1 are they covering building construction? Its one of the big killers of firefighters. More detail can be found in the Hackensack LODD thread. If NYS will not even teach to the level that is required by NYS Law, how can we expect qualified firefighters?

Basicly. Triboro is part of Taylor, not the other way around. Taylor protects the community, and Triboro ensures labor to continue to provide the service (protect the community) while not being taken advantage of by managment.

I remeber we were sitting in the Fire House Kitchen when the news of the fire broke and live fotage was interupting whatever was on. We all said: "They do not realize that they are operating at a bowstring truss". We could see it on the news 10-15 minutes before the collapse. I hate to say it but, the majority of the fire service has already forgotten this or never learned the leason of this fire (and others). If we allow our firefighters to respond to and enter structures without understanding the hazards of different construction, we have forgotten. If we fail to utilize proper communications (including seperate fireground and dispatch) systems, we have forgotten. If we fail to have enough firefighters during the early stages of a fire and enough in reserve (FAST & Stagging), we have forgotten. If we fail to regularly inspect (and preplan) structures and allow illegal and dangerious practices to continue, we have forgotten. When span of control is exceded and ICS not utilized, IC get overloaded and can not protect the members, we have forgotten. The above conditions still occur in many departments and we will again have another incident that we "Will Never Forget". Does your minimum training include; building construction for the fire service? Does your dept. know its district and the hazards in it? If you do not do inspections/preplans, than the answer is NO. Do you have proper communications (every LODD report says most do not)? Do you have enough staff, early enough and trained properly? Do you have properly trained staff, with the resources to command and properly run a firefight. I keep fighting this fight, because I do remember. "Let no man's ghost return to say: MY Training Let Me Down"

This is the exact reason the Triboro Amendment exists in the public sector. Most Fire, Police, Corrections and other public workers go years without a contract. There is a group of politicians in NYS who want to eliminate Triboro. They claim it gives the unions too much power, but in actuallity this case shows the exact oppisite.

If that was such a good concept there would be more than a few hundred communities out of the 33,000 fire depts and however many police depts in the us. Most places one service becomes the bastard step child and there is no one to bring the fight to the elected officials. With a police and fire commissioner, at least they get to argue the depts case.

NYS decides what for you? The training that they provide or the training that is required? FASNY has always complained that the training requiremens are too much, so OFPC reduced the number of hours in the FF1 class. OFPC for 20 years said it took at least 15 hours to teach the NYS and Federally mandated Hazmat Operations course. When the current FF1 class came out the kept the 15 hours of material and only allow for 3 hours to cover it. Since NYS Law says all firefighters (not vol, not career, not interior, not exterior, but ALL Firefighters) must be certified by their employer (and the courts have ruled that VFD's are employer for this) prior to responding to ANY Calls. So if you only follow NYS and your members have not had at least another 12 hours (inhouse) they are in violation of the law. OFPC does not require Confined Space Training, but as Tarrytown found out state law does. Rewards are a good way to retain members and thus I have no problem with rewards as long as 1) It is clear to the community that that is what the money is being used for and 2) the people being rewarded are actually performing the service that the community is rewarding them for. From the Patch articles it sounds like both #1 and #2 are at issue. Do those making donations know that the money is being used to reduce fire protection during those times the members leave the community for these events?

1) This Scenario was created by a fire in Nassau County that was handled very well by 100% volunteer depts. The question asked was can ANY community in Westchester handle it the same. Note, that I said community because this was not just a FD operation. EMS managed to get 24 abulances to the scene in short order and I am asking if Westchester can do the same. 2) Where are the praises for the all career depts in this post? I (nor anyone else) ever said the career communities could handle this incident properly. 3) Are you saying that this type of incident could not happen in Westchester? or in communities with vol., combo or career depts.? 4) Are you saying there are flaws in any dept. when it comes to this type of incident? 5) Why do you think this is anti- vol or anti combo? If you can not handle an incident that can occur in at least 1/2 the communities in Westchester, what are you doing about it, besides claiming that this is an attack? If you can not answer the questions with planning, training, equipment etc. then I should not have to ask the question, but you have a responsability to the community you swore to protect to tell them, you can not handle it and/or you need help.

So which is it?

How much more fire duty do they get? HFD has 5 engines, 2 trucks, 3 hose companies, A Rescue Squad and Fire Police covering 50,000 residents in 3 square miles. YFD has 10 engines, 6 trucks, 1 rescue covering 195,976 residents, 18 square miles

Thanks for a great 1st post and welcome to EMTBravo. The training you describ is what I was questioning if depts in Westchester had done this. I believe many have not or if they have they have not performed it enough to be effective. Thanks for the correction, that if was from the original incident alert and I was more concerned with concepts, then if they had actually used those specific methods/equipment. Very well said. The entire point of this thread was to have members consider if this is true or not. Thanks for your post.

Thats been the fight from the start. The only way the fire service has a chance is 1) everyone needs to be on board (chiefs, union, volunteers, districts, marshals, etc. and 2) we need back up. Lets get the insurance industry behind us. They have a financial stake in this. If they understood that we can not fight these fires, just make sure everyone is out and then we back out, they will have a total loss, including contents. THat should run the cost up. make this a money vs. money issue.

Mike with all due respect, TMFD had a single apt fire with possible extension. The incident I used had 4 floors of heavy fire. TMFD's used 2 lines for knockdown (if memory serves), while they needed many lines and master steams. They had jumpers down and TMFD had a couple on the fire escape who were too scared to climb down. This is not to say TMFD's job was not handled well. But it was a relativly simple job.

How many depts. can get enough trained personnel on scene fast enough? OK so the answers so far are: Yes, define it and No (generally). Yes they can: Let’s look back to 2005 when Yonkers had a fire call on the 1st floor apt. in a 7 story OMD. When the first Yonkers fire units arrived on scene, they reported a working fire with people coming down the fire escapes. Within 5 minutes, the bc requested another engine. Over the next 10 minutes, 2nd, 3rd and 4th alarms were called. Within 23 minutes of arriving a 5th alarm (recall of off duty members and mutual aid). Within 25 minutes of the call more than 75 “interior” trained firefighters were operating in the hazard zone. In the first 45 minutes of this fire approximately 100 civilians were rescue via both ground and aerial ladders. Within 50 minutes, all firefighters were evacuated as fire had taken hold of the 1st through 4th floors. Over the next two and a half (2½) hours the fire continued to expand and the fire went up to nine (9) alarms with 22 engines and 11 ladders from Yonkers and mutual aid. Bringing the total units on the scene to over 30 engines and 14 ladders. Recalled Yonkers firefighters were able to man three spare engines and two spare ladders to cover the rest of the city. Within 3 hours the building had collapsed and was declared a total loss. The lesson that everyone in Westchester should have learned that day was without being able to place a high number of well coordinated firefighters on the scene within the first 30 minutes this fire would have set a new record for the number of lives lost. Mutual aid was useless in saving lives at this incident as it would have taken too long to arrive. It would define trained personnel as ones who can operate at a large fire in an OMD. Most need to be Interior, but what currently most depts. consider the training for interior barely covers the skills needed to operate at or command an incident in this type of building. Mutual Aid has trouble operating at a single family home fire, how are they going to function at this? How many are competent in fighting a fire in this type of structure? I do not know of any “courses”, but before that, we need to develop the individual/team skills needed to operate at these fires. These skills include: Hose Stretches; Court Yard Stretch, interior stair, stair well, fire escape stretch and sometimes standpipe. Forcible Entry; These apts. are often equipped with steel doors & frames and FE will be needed on multiple doors, in low visibility and at the same time. Many depts. deal with FE at an exterior door only. Ventilation: Vertical & Horizontal. Bulkhead doors and skylights, access to the roof, dealing with cocklofts, etc. And coordinating all of this. Plus a host of other skills. The larger depts. that deal with these structures on a regular basis train all members in the skills, then set up SOP’s (to put the skills “together”) and then drill on them

The County GIS dept. relies on data input from the local municipalities (they will come out and help, but 90% of the data is local). We have had a GIS dept. in our city for at least a dozen years and when the FD (and then PD) added mapping to our vehicles we were told by the county we had the best data in the county because of our GIS dept. 6 years later and we have made more than 6,000 corrections to the data base. The county GIS shows that the border between NR and Eastchester is one thing on the municipal map (layer), another on the police map, a third location on the Fire map and a forth on the EMS map. State law requires that PD & FD for City's must be contiguous with the municipal boarder (unless contracted to provide outside coverage. Their is not a board dispute between the 2 comunities and it only affects county & state property. As a side not the boarder was established almost 400 years ago by the King of England and it has not chaged. In the past 3 weeks county gis has told us that the spelling on 3 city roads is wrong. so we checked the records and our official map of our streets is correct and the street names were athorized by our city admin. One of them was named on a 1934 map (long before westchester GIS). Maps are always a work in progress and while county GIS is very helpful, in Westchester it is a local responsability to manage. In the past 3

While most codes say 75 feet (approx 6 stories), I see a big difference in our 6-8 story OMD and out 40 story "high rises". Our highrises are concrete & steel, sprinklered, have fire pumps and presurized standpipes, fire alarms, HVAC systems to evacuate smoke and fire service elevators, presurized fire stairs, etc. Our 6-8 story OMD's have masonary walls and wood interiors (many are wood frame with a brick/stone veneer). open stairwells, no sprinklers, no stand pipes, common cockloft. abandoned dumbwaiters, non fire service elevators and not detection systems. We have seen wind driven fire on 2nd floor fires. Half of CA has burned due to wind. Nothing huge yet. And if a dorm that fire is coming. Most do not. But this fire started on the 2nd floor, no standpipes for that attack (dont know about the upper floors) and many OMD's do not have standpipes.

From Incident Alert: Date: 06-17-12 (Sunday) Time: 18:19hrs. Weather Conditions: Warm and Clear Description Of Incident: Chief 80 o/s reporting a kitchen fire on the 2nd floor of a 7-story brick 200'x200' OMD w/reports of victims trapped. Companies o/s w/heavy fire showing w/extension to the 3rd floor. 2nd and 3rd Alarms transmitted by Command for heavy fire conditions and numerous victims trapped. Command reporting fire extended to the 5th and 6th floors w/jumpers down. 4th, 5th, and 6th Alarms transmitted by Command. Heavy fire on the 2nd through 6th floors. Numerous L/S/O's w/master streams in operation. Ladder Companies opening up. Numerous victims rescued. Command requested 24 additional Ambulances to the scene for 30 victims to be transported to local hospitals. All hands working. The above incident occured yesterday in Hempstead L.I.. The depts. did a great job and everyone was very lucky to have no fatalities. Identical buildings exist in Westchester from Yonkers to Peekskill along the Hudson, from Pelham Manor to Portchester along the LI Sound and from Mount Vernon North to _______ along the Harlem Line MNRR. How many depts. can get enough trained personnel on scene fast enough? How many are competent in fighting a fire in this type of structure? How long would it take to get 24 additional ambulances? And how would the performance be if the weather was not perfect and it was at other times/day of the week? Finally, how do we get there from here?

The Fire Department is a municipal agency under the village of Irvington, so no. The Fire Company is a not for profit corporation so it should be required to

It really depends on the department. Some departments might use it to show you are dedicated to do the work, others could care less. I know a number of departments that would rather not have to "retrain" a new recruit and all your training may indicate to them that you were not trained "their way". What is the NYS 229 academy "equivilant"? Do you mean you have taken all the classes that are listed in the 229? If so DO NOT SEND. Since 1986 many of the 229 academies are 600 plus hours. Also, taking all the classes one at a time and adding them up is not the same training as taking them as one course. If you are reachable on the list they will call you and request you bring a resume.

That works for Fire Districts & Fire Protection Districts it also works for municipal (village) FD's who disband. NYS City Law requries cities to have its own FD. Other communities can contract them, but they can not be disolved. And you are correct that this would not require a constitutional change, just a change in general municipal law.