Bnechis

Thanks for the story Chief. While FD units may have self dispatched, The MVPD sent out a hotline call for "ALL AVAILABLE AMBULANCES" to respond. My understanding is there were still units responding long after the incident was over.

They are still listed as Seagraves Dealer on the Seagrave Web site

First could you point out any studies based on population? Minimum staffing is generally based on 3 things; 1) Required number of responders needed to complete a specific mission or missions 2) Response distance (or time) 3) Call volume If it takes 16 responders to handle a basic fire in an average community, The major difference between one community and the next is what additional missions must be completed at an incident, i.e. High Rise require additional personnel because of vertical response time and tthe need to carry equipment up and victims down.Rural ops require additional personnel to transport water, etc. Since most standards look at how long it takes to get the required numbers on scene (usually in 4-8 minutes) the minimum staffing must consider how large an area is being covered. If you cover 1 square mile and can meet the above with 20 members you would not be able to meet it with the same number ofmembers as the area grows (in area and call volume). It is easy to cover urban areas and many suburban areas, but how do you cover rural areas (like in much of Oregon)? Last week I was working with a responder from a state that has1/2 the population of Westchester County, but is 200 times larger (500sq miles vs. 100,000sq miles). If you used a formula of say 1 responder per 100 population (which is what Westchester claims to have in FF) then the rural state if following the same formula would have 5,000 responders covering 100,000 sq.miles (or 1 responder every 20 sq. miles) imagine Yonkers would only need 1 ff following that formula.

In other words they placed a mandatory tax cap like NY and as predicted it has hurt services. THe difference is their tax cap cant be broken and in NY most governments have already gone over the cap.

Thanks Antique We used that method from 1988 till just a few years ago. With our new extra low (but short) hose bed we went back to a standard flat load and found it was better as we didnt want to give up the front of the bed for just couplings.

Care to explain?

The FEMA USAR system is 28 teams that are federally funded and must meet a number of specific FEMA requirements. The number (28) was locked in and can only grow with congressional approval. NY TF2 (OFPC) is also not in the FEMA USAR system.

FEMA does not "authorize" USAR programs They can be called by anyone covered under Mutual Aid. FEMA does not have its own training "standard" they used NFPA standards.

There are lots of different methods for accountability at an emergency. How do different departments do it and does it accomplish the goal of accountability? What does your department use and how does it account for members, particularly how does it account for members in the hazard vs. support areas?

Both are correct with the different names. 2in/2out is the law and a FAST team can be the 2 out as long as they are ready to go in BEFORE the 2 (or more) members enter any IDLH atmosphere. Their is no legal requirement for FAST, but their are standards that require it (and can be used in litigation against an IC &/or Dept). NFPA 1710 requires an IRIC within 8 minutes as part of every response to a reported structure fire. The IRIC is an "initial rapid intervention company" and it consists of 2 interior FF's (the 2 out). The standard requires that upon declaring a "working fire" the IRIC must be upgraded to a RIC by adding 2 additional interior ff's.

The electronic riding list is designed to be updated on a 1 to 1 basis. Since each position is full until relieved if a member who is assigned as the nozzle has not swapped with his/her relief, then he is still nozzle and if the relief wants to "take a ride" he can sign in as a extra rider. Its also designed to be easy enough for a member to swap in & out if he is covering for an hour or 2 so another member can go to his kids game. I believe that once members are fully aware of the value of the whole system, they will adjust it often as it only takes a few seconds.

1) the safety officer role is "all incompassing safety" and may require multiple people to perform. I was always taught he/she was to be another set of eyes for the IC, but with a different focus. 2) If its just entry exit then are we not accounting for everyone on the fire ground. While less hazardous, exterior members have been killed operating An accounability officer should be doing it now with tags, passport, etc. They can do it. There is no back-up to the current system that does not work today. Not know where the members are opperating in a timely manor is what most depts have today. It should be a regional standard, but we cant even agree on apparatus staffing and response times (turnout times)

http://scott2013firefighter.com/air-pak/

Damn the standard scotty, full speed ahead. But I'm giving it all she's got jim.......

If the cost of hose is an issue why spend the $$$ on a 1500gpm pump when the maximum amount of water you can move is 1,000gpm. You can go smaller pump, smaller engine and drive train, shorter more manuverable etc.

Thanks. We used riding lists for each rig. The chiefs aid would collect them at a fire. In the late 1980's there was a push to tags. Sidebar: I remember there was an incident in a VFD (in PA I think) with a late night fire and after the FD picked up a ff's wife called the chief to find out when her ff would get home. They went back to the scene and found the ff dead in the building. The tags in general were a way to know who showed up. when everyone grabs their tag to go home, any left is the dead ff. At least the wife would not have to start the search. Our tags were color coded by rank (all members are interior, so thats not an issue) and gave the members name and were placed on a ring on each rig. They were collected at fires. All of the problems listed previously occured with these tags. About 2 years ago we went to an electronic riding list. All dept. computers have access (watch desks, station offices, HQ and rig computers) It allows members to slide their names into a riding position, it identifies the portable radio & SCBA they have (including covering spares). It can be updated easily by anyone in just a few seconds. A printed report lists all riding positions (withnames, radio ID & SCBA) on a single page and can be updated/printed in the chiefs car or at a CP. Having the SCBA ID is very helpful when dealing with Pak Tracker. Most import the electronic riding list was put in play with the anticipation of an Electronic Firefighter Accountability System (E.F.A.S.). Now the riding list is not very useful to depts. that are not fully staffed or arrive in POV. But there are some things in the works with the company that does this to work around that issue. We still require tags, but they are not collected and are only intended to be used when a rig goes mutual aid to another community. We also added Position/Radio ID tags on our SCBA. This has been useful on the fireground in see who is who. The E.F.A.S. system development and testing is complete and we are rolling it out this month. We had a very sucssessful test last week with FDNY who is also using a variation of it. I will go over it in detail in the future. But in my view, in the long run, electronic systems are going to be the answer.

Almost every dept. is in this boat. And they all seem content that the system is working. i have seen that cluster at many mutual aid jobs and its useless. Agreed about the freelancing, but even working in pairs, if you are not advising the accountability officer (or whoever is tracking your people) where you are, then you are freelancing. Having tried to find a single tag in a cluster of 25-50 tags, I can tell you that when given a pak tracker ID # (alerted): a) It is going to take some time to find out who it is (and compounded if multiple members are in trouble. (I think many depts never consider multiple members down). b)Does it really matter that its ff Smith whose PASS alarm is going off or knowing where that pack is located? Great ways to cut down on the problems ofaccountability. Sometimes this is a difficult change, good for CFD.

Thanks for the feedback. Again I must ask how these systems account for ff locations in hazardous areas? An improvement on the "ring" as you know who has what assignment, radio, pack, etc......But it only works if you have very good company integrity. From what I have seen, very few depts. have this. So while you arrived as Eng 1 nozzle, 2 bottle changes latter Eng 1 has been split up and the officer is doing one thing, the driver is somewhere else and the nozzle is now working with eng 2. If you do not track all of this, they are still on the bearclaw (or ring or passport or riding list) and its wrong and you no longer have accountability. I have seen this happen at most fires in Westchester. So it does not matter what current system you use, if you do not track the member from begining to end. If the Safety officer is doing accountability, who does the safety officers job? Great idea. We have been doing this for 30 years and it is very helpful. We are about to step it up to the next level and actually track members using this. You are correct. It is only as good as the self discipline of the members using it. We need a better system!!!!! How many times have the members forgotten to use the tag, or go check the rig and find someones tag who you know has already gone home.

Thanks. Who is assigned as the accountability officer?

The Chelse Pump station is south of Poughkeepsie and NYC uses it to draw Hudson River Water into the drinking supply when the reseviours are low. I have been told its fresh at that point. I also do not see it as a problem, However Long Island sound is much saltier, and If I owned an old pumper I would prefer not to expose it to that much salt.

Were the budget cuts due to a voter imposed tax cap (measure 5 & 47)?

In anticipating this type of incident, Chief Wraftery has developed the proper apparatus: great preplanning chief

How about building the plant OUTSIDE the town. There are code and zoning restrictions on the manufacture storage and sale of most hazardous materials and on the most dangerious ones (particularly explosives, oxidizers and peroxides) they include maximum quantities per control area and (blast) distances from other structures, storage and processes. Gricci Fireworks in Bellport LI blew up in 1983 killing 3 workers, leveling the factory and damaging over 100 homes. When the factory was built in 1929 it was in a remote area and most of the homes were built around it (ie. no zoning laws). The replacement factory was built on 90 acres, next to an ash field & an FD training facility. The factory is sub divided into multiple buildings with seperation and earth mounds between each "room". The likelyhood of another large explosion has been limited and if one happens the only people affected will be those that work there.

Same in NYS. And the reason goes back to the Stoffer's Fire in December 1980. Stoffer's Built in Harrison,gust outside the White Plains City Line. White Plains City Code required sprinklers and other safe guards, that Harrison did not require and Stoffers wanted to save money (not do the right thing). The state determined that if the WP code was inplace, the outcome would have been different. They then made a state code. They do allow some local "upgrades" but they must be approvedby the state codes council andits not easy to do. As a sidebar, Stoffer's never recovered from the reputation of the fire and finally got out of the biz. Good planning in not spending the money upfront on fire protection. While EPA laws are on all persons and organizations, OSHA laws in non OSHA "Plan States" including Texas can only be applied to non governmental workers.

You beat me to it.One advantage of being retired......lol