Bnechis

We were sitting in station 3's kitchen watching the news of the fire in Hackensack before the collapse and we could not believe that they did not know it was a truss building. We saw that is what it was and how advanced the fire was. I remember the descussion that they needed to backout and then it collapsed. I will never forget. If you and your dept. did not learn the painful lessons of that day, then shame on you! If you do not train every member in building construction and how fire effects it (and how it effects fire) you did not learn the leasons of that day. If you do not do building inspections or at least walk throught and document hazards you did not learn the leasons of that day. If you do not have seperate fireground and dispatch channels (and use them everytime) you did not learn the leasons of that day. If you do not do accountability (so you know where your firefighters are operating) you did not learn the leasons of that day. if you do not operate a command post with enough people to track resources and be able to hear all radio traffic (because the chief is trying to multi task to many jobs) you did not learn the leasons of that day. If you do not evaluate & reevaluate conflicting condition reports you did not learn the leasons of that day. If you exceed proper span of control you did not learn the leasons of that day. If you do not stage tactical reserves you did not learn the leasons of that day. In Westchester, many of these lessons were never learned or they have been forgotten. I will never forget.

The last engines we bought with boosters was in 1988 (when they were retired the motors had all been burnedout, the intake valves leaked and the floor under them was rotting. We switched to a front mounted trash line and up till 2010 thats what all engines used. When we were replacing Engine 21 all of the crews said we do not use the trashline. We stretch what ever is needed from the rear bed and hook it up. Since that is what we will do at all fires we get better and better at it and in effect it is training. We did add I-zone hooks, so if you need to get off a scene quick (like from a highway) or the hose is dirty and you do not want to pack it, it can be quickly looped up and taken care of back at the fire house. Now that engine is busier than most of the the commenters (who favor boosters for the few calls) combined.

What was most interesting in the study is the math. It showed the two 3 member crews was not as effective as a 5 or 6 member crew. in other words 3 + 3 = 4.8 The study is from NIST who in 2010 did a study that if followed would consolidate most of Westchester. In the single family house fire study, they determined that a minimum crew size of 3ff/1off was better than smaller crews EVEN if it ment longer response times. They actually determined the levels of toxic gas & heat when it was no longer survivable for victims and compared how the proper crew size that arrived later acctually had more time to rescue them & save property because they were so much more effecient in attacking the fire and rescuing the victims.

All scenes? How about many or most. In my 1st 15 years our PD was never sent on EMS calls at nursing homes. Then all of a sudden they were being sent to everyone. I asked why (they do not provide any pt care) and was told they were needed to determine if a crime had been committed (pt with a fever). I asked why they were not arresting people, because its a crime to treat people the way they are treated in some "skilled nursing facilities"? Often they do not arrive until after EMS has transported, they just get the info or meet the ambulance at the ER. These extra couple thousand calls are showing "productivity"

You are correct, We occasionally get from them "its a big fire" (nice if we originally only had it as an alarm), But most of the time all I have ever heard is tell them to "expidite"..... In the past the only cars we ever found that were blocking FD access were PD. In recent years with better supervision (sgt shows up with the sector cars) its less of a problem.

Much of what you wrote is valid, but some of these items are not: "5 - Use as a secondary line for a car / truck / container fire by attaching a SG or CG nozzle using either a piercing attachment or a "pinapple wand" to get into those hard to reach areas (before a hood or an opening can be created). Again, doesn't take the place of the main attack lines, it an added resource." While nice to have the special nozzle, why not have that 2nd line with enough power to back up the primary if something goes wrong (like the gas tank drops) "7 - DECON and REHAB for your firefighters, nothing like having a small line to cool you off on a hot day or to wash down your dirty gear. Again, freeing up another larger line or main discharge." Not for decon and "freeing up a line or discharge" I have never seen an engine run out of discharges, most today have 7-9 (4-6 main ones) "8 - small propane tank leakes - less than 20 lbs tanks (adjust the nozzle to a good fog patter and disipate that LPG)" Maybe you should calculate the potential btu output from oneof these before you go in with way too small of a flow "9 - Use as an invesitgation line - The FM is trying to find the cause of a fire, got a few very small hot-spots or needs to wash down a small are without having the great pressure from a 1 3/4" line, the booster is your line. GRANTED it should not be the only line present, you should still have a main attack line present just in case! You have the poewer of both." If the pressure is too much in the 1 3/4" line - Gate down. because of the reduced FL you can use less pressure (thus less volume) and get the jop done. If the booster is being justified for conviniance most of the time, how come here you are adding an extra line to do the job? thats more work not less. Even when we had boosters, we did not do this, because we already had a line in the building. why clean and pack 2 lines.

"Final extinguishment of a smoldering engine compartment fire."So you pack up the 1 3/4" line that you used to get to that point and then pull the booster to finish the job? "Hitting some hot spots found during the investigation phase."Same as above "As a protection line for the engine for a short period of time while pumping a fire."If you need to protect your $500,000+ engine because you parked it too close, you need a real line "We've used it in several situations where we previously would've used a can. A lot easier to put a little water back in the tank back at the station than servicing the can."Saves a whole minute "We get called upon to "wash down" some public areas at times. Using regular handlines, we'd often have to refill at least once to complete the job. Just the other week my engine washed down the stage area of an outdoor "bandshell" style venue with less than 200 gallons of water."How is it that you use an extra 300 gallons with the regular line? If you put out more water you complete the washdown in less time and the amount should be the same.

No. For gross decon it is not used as it does not flow enough for technical decon & mass decon it has the wrong size couplings to match the equipment

Its sad that that is all you can see. I have trained a lot of LEO's over the years and this is not bias. Everyone here is assuming this was a house fire it was not. It was an occupied fire proof multiple dwelling. When the apartment door to an apartment on fire in this type of building is opened the remaining tenents are all placed in grave dangers. If people are still trying to evacuate from adjacent apts or from upper floors and the door is opened the halls and stairs fill with toxic smoke. We are tought to control the door and not force it wide open. This also has the potential to creat a wind driven fire in the hallway, which has killed FF's & civilians. We have been to many fires in these projects the layout is such that a kitchen fire (as this was reported to be) will trap people in the bedrooms (the kitchens are at the front of the apt) if the front door is open and not controlled prior to a hose line being inplace. If we replace,ff with an off duty ff from an area that does not have multiple dwellings the result would be the same. Forcing opening the fire apt door placed dozens of civilians into a life threatening scenario, particularly since the apartment was evacuated prior to PD's arrival. How much risk was involved and what was the potential reward? Also if a PD LT. says his officers did the wrong thing in public, how is it that we are biased for saying the same thing?

Ok 1 examble from emt-Bravo 2 years ago. I do not remember seeing it, but an off duty firefighter went into a burning structure. Is he trained to understand what the fire conditions are and how they will change? can he make a risk benefit analisys based on his training and experience? You say we are bashing LEO for the same thing, but you are missing the point, they do not have the training. If an off duty LEO stopped an armed robbery, I (and I believe most here) would not be knocking him/her because they are trained to do it. 2nd example was not from here. 1st time I'm seeing it. and its says he was a trained lifeguard. It keeps coming back to training.

If FD or EMS arrives on scene at an active shooter and PD is not yet on scene and lives are at stake what should they do "wait for PD" or just rush in? Same concept. If PD already has SOP that says do not drive recklessly to calls and do not enter fire area and they do both on this call, its not up to the FD to do inservice training. The PD supervisor made it quite clear they did not follow dept policy.

No

Point them out, I know I have bashed a few ff/ems for doing s*** they were not trained to do or that violated there own policies. LEO have an incredibly difficult job, but in this particular case the officers who got hurt did not need to be in the position they put themselves in.

Any responder (PD, FD, EMS....) who does not have training to understand if they are being helpful or not because of there actions is not helping. Not understanding if busting open doors or windows will improve smoke conditions or cause a back draft or flashover might save a victim or doom a victim. A number of years ago I ended up on a scene where a police officer vented a window while his partner was inside searching. It caused either a backdraft or a flashover (dont know didnt get there till a few minutes after that). The officer was a close friend of my partner and before I intubated him he asked my partner to tell his wife and kids goodbye andhe loved them. The next day my partner quit as a medic. Good intentions are great, but why do we do all kinds of training and have rules, and SOP's if the moment the scene turns bad we just rush in and ignore everything we learned (or did we fail to train our personnel and have sop's)?

Interesting concept, but I think it would be very dangerious in most municipal depts. But for ARFF, Shipboard, Industrial it might be an excellent tool

Lets me get this straight, under this new proposal retired LEO's can have more ammo, but active duty on-duty LEO's responding to a school shooting will still be restricted in the amount and be breaking the law if they bring their guns into a gun free school zone?

Police officers are extensivly trained and equipped to make traffic stops. While they may or may not be "more dangerious" they can and do make a size-up that is intended to keep them safe. If they are not trained and equipped to handle a toxic & potentially flammable environment they can not make a size up and while it may occur less often the CO incident is more dangerious. Again apples to oranges? You are intitled to your opinion, but based on your statements you just failed almost every station of your NYS EMT-P exam: My scenario for your Patient Assessment station: Neighbors report a man down in a house. You and your partner arrive 1st to this medical emergency The 1st critical fail on the states check list is....................................IS THE SCENE SAFE? If you asked the question (as required to become/continue as an EMT or Medic) and I answered their is a car running in the attached garage and the neighbors are yelling "HURRY I THINK HE STOPPED BREATHING" What do you do? In the real world your answer affects your life, but here in the classroom it affects your ability to become or stay an EMT or paramedic. Never said they are useless. In fact they are required by code. So along with promoting them, we should be teaching about running cars and grills in the house.

No it does not and you know it. Apples vs. Oranges.....big difference between a toxic gas and an ambush Sorry, but its generally not the cops job to go into an IDLH atmosphere and it is also not his job to get killed at work. No, there is no excuse for that. How about telling people not to have their cars running over night in the garage.

1) if you can't anylyze it as part of your SIZE-UP, then you need to get another line of work. It's easy to anylyze an incidents afterwards, but when you're in the moment, you do what you are trained to do. 2) I am sure they were never trained to do what they did. I wont go into details or rehash it. But in one incident the law was violated when responders entered an IDLH atmosphere and in the other incident the law was violated when responders entered an IDLH atmosphere. The difference is in this case the responders were lucky. Yes 3 are alive, but the FD could have pulled up and had 5 down and that would have doomed the 3 original victims, as they would have most likely goneafter the down officers 1st.

So lets forget all our training and just run in? A traffic vest is a big difference from an SCBA You are correct we don't know what info they got. If it was off duty FF's we would be saying the exact same thing. So lets get ride of all PPE and training.We could just risk it to save someone. As a supervisor, I have a responsability to my personnel to send them home at the end of the shift (or call). If we can save someone after evaluating and minimizing the risks (thru PPE) then lets do it otherwise we are not providing a service to the community. .

I saw nothing, smell nothing so it must be safe right? Before reading the other responses all I could think of was would we have labeled this if they did not survive this incident. I bet its not "great job".

1st we need to define a false alarm. If Mrs. Smith is cooking and burns somehing, the smoke sets of the smoke detector. We made it law that she has a smoke detector and that it will trigger an alarm. If its connected to a central station (which is sometimes required) it will notify the FD. As much as we may not like it, this is not a false alarm. It performed exactly as designed and required by code. I agree that in some cases they should be fined, but if you fine them enough they may just disconnect them and that was never the goal. How can you force them to disconnect a fire alarm,when in many cases it is required by code.

We have had similar issues and found the problem of multiply "burnt food" can be reduced by the following: 1) in the kitchen replace the central station smoke detector with a rate of rise heat detector. 2) Add a local smoke detector in the kitchen (close to the stove). The central station will only go off if there is a fire (not smoke) and when the food starts to burn (but long before its a hazard) the staff members will be alerted to mitigate. Residance can still be instructed to leave. & everyone needs to know that the FD will not respond until the central station goes off

It does not matter if EPA gives the waiver or not. Every engine manufacturer has already publicly stated that the emergency service market is less than 1% of thier sales and they would not make a seperate engine for such a small share.

That would have been in 1985 (I think) Train #1 was empty (on Track #2, if memory serves) and parked. Train #2 was moving toward Pelham with just an engineer & conductor. Lucky the train was empty because 15 minutes or so later both would have been full of NYC bound morning commuters. The engineer ran a red signal. It was believed he did not see it because he was reading the news paper & facing backwards. They hit the parked train and went up over it. (I'm looking for my photos) it was an awsume sight.