Bnechis

Congratulations Chief Dunn! Best of luck in retirement! You will be missed!

Good catch. If you look carefully in one of the pics, the FF has a PW extingusher along side the SCBA bottle (with a shoulder strap), that maybe what the report was looking at..

I went back and relooked up he link I had originally used and you are correct. I cut/pasted it to my original post and must have only caught part of it.

I agree, but its because 1) they assume everyone is trained, 2) they have been told we have 100's of trained firefighters and/or 3) I'm never going to call the FD so it does not matter. And the public generally does not care if a FF gets hurt (unless they know the ff) as long as it does not cost them more $$$ OSHA is another issue, they have been showing up in a number of depts in Westchester and issuing fines for failing to meet standards. They can show up because of an incident, because of a complaint (and how many depts have 1 ormore unhappy members/exmembers?) or a random inspection. Yes you are correct, most depts act that way. And you are right about someone having to die, but it has to bein that dept. because many firefighters have died over the years and depts have not learned from the extensive reports on these LODDs.

Thats not what OFPC's 2013 Training Catalog lists. It only had Firefighter I

In part yes. Since FF1 is a prerequisite to AVET. If I am trapped in my car, it would be very nice to know that the people who are extricating me know what to do when the car catches fire. Does any FD have enough members that they can affort to specilize to such a degree that theycan only go on a small percentage of the calls? I see a lot of depts that run about 500 - 750 calls per year. 60% are EMS (might be nice to be trained in that too), so now we are down to 200- 300 non EMS calls. Another 15% are AFA or 75 - 110 more calls, which based on this thread many of your members may not be qualified to respond to. So now we are down to about 100-200 calls, which maybe 10% include, CO, Odor of Gas, Fuel Spill, unknow odor, "wash downs, etc. If they are not certified (which if they have not made FFII orat least HM OPS ) it is illegal forthem to go on these 50-75 calls. So we are down to about 50 - 100 calls per year in the average VFD. They include wires down, general emergencies, and MVA. So do you really need a member who can only go on 15% of your calls (and based on the above prerequisite can not do that either)?

I agree that the general public does not care, but they also assume that all firefighers are trained! They do not know that the when the dept. claims to have hundreds of volunteers and that they are saving millions, that they often can not get a team of interior members to an incident. You are correct, they do not care if the members all have training, because they have already been convinced that they do. Often by the community and dept. leadership who either have no idea or are part of the old guard that keeps pushing for 2 standards.

Welcome to New York State

NYS as an OSHA "state plan" state is required to have equall or stricter regulations. To do this the Labor Law that established PESH documents this. And NYS uses and thus enforces the exact same federal standards, using the same federal CFR language. I would be shocked if the standards unit has any knowledge of why one of there standards is below the level required by state law. I stopped teaching the courses when they asked us to cover 15 hours of material in 3 hours. I told them this was wrong as no new volunteers would be legally able to respond to calls. I was told that higher ups had determined that it did not mater and the state just needed to make the courses shorter. The academy's in Utica, Montor Falls, Westchester, and FDNY all exceed the minimum standard as required by law. Westchester adds Hazmat Tech and Tech Rescue plus some other material, because the Westchester Career Chiefs want it done then and not later. I do not know if this still is part of it, but at one time montor adds some evening course work, making the days longer.

Since NYS Law is clear that you must have Hazardous Materials First Responder Operations BEFORE you can respond to ANY Calls (beyond being a spectator), why do we need FF Recruit II? 29CFR 1910.120 (q) (6): Training. Training shall be based on the duties and function to be performed by each responder of an emergency response organization. The skill and knowledge levels required for all new responders, those hired after the effective date of this standard, shall be conveyed to them through training before they are permitted to take part in actual emergency operations on an incident. Employees who participate, or are expected to participate, in emergency response, shall be given training in accordance with the following paragraphs: The effective date is March 7, 1996

The "standards" have nothing to do with "home rule". There are laws that depts. either follow or ignor. There are standards that depts. either follow or ignor. When something goes wrong and the standards are not followed the courts get the final word and not the membership. You are correct in who is lobbying Albany to prevent change and while that is the real issue here, recent court rulings should be very carefully looked at. If you are a chief and you allow actions that do not meet national standards, you will lose (civil & criminal cases).

Thats because 1) we cant let the other depts have a "better" or more expensive toy than we have. 2) No one in the dept is willing to or physically fit enough to climb a straight ladder. I like when depts. buy a tower that can not drive to the majority of its district because of weight and the rest of the district has tight driveways that prevent turning in and set up. But as long as our toy is as big as everyone else its ok (even if we cant staff it).

Thanks mstrang1. The majority of calls to airports are for standbye for an aircraft in distress. Consider the flight 232 Sioux City. ARFF, EMS were onscene about 30 minutes before the crash occured.

Generally accepted standards are 4 minutes for BLS & 8 minutes for ALS 90% of the time. Airport responses are (as mentioned) a very different animal. Particularly when one considers this was an unexpected crash. Also airports are often isolated, SF is at the far end of the city and 3 sides are bay,so all ambulances must come from one side and it also means that there are no units stationed and available in 60-75% of the surrounding area (as it has no need). Look at Westchester COunty, it is very difficult to get to theairport because of limited road network & water

1) my neighbor needs help putting out the garbage and mowing thelawn andthere are many others just like them. 2) I agree with you about the "Label" of firefighter. I have a big problem with a dept claiming to the public it has 100 FIREFIGHTERS, when we start counting and find 20 have retired to Fl. but still make the annual dinner, another 10 are in "skilled nursing facilities" and 40 of them are exterior only ("Support Personnel") That means you only have 30 "Firefighters" and 25 of them work out of the area. I do not mind if a VFD is honest to itself and the public. But Isee deptslike the one above claiming to the public that they are protecting them...Its great to help your neighbors, if you are actually helping them.

1) "Mutual" Aid does mean you help me and I help you. If you need a million $$$ ladder everytime you have a call and you cant send one to me when I need it, its no longer mutual, its just your cheap taxpayers leaching of mine. 2) ISO requires every response to have a ladder or service company (based on building size and fire flow requirement). If you do not have one your rating goes up. Depending on what their rating is, it could cost millions per year in increased insurance premiums to not have a ladder.

Nope. But it should be here in a few weeks.

There is another reported motivation, which may make the 1st concept (while a good one) not effective. It has been reported that there real motivation is litigation,they want to be able to sue for loss of there rights to protest. I suspect they are looking to see what the response will be and if it helps orhurts their goal

When it was built an Engine company would have included a horse drawn steamer and a horse drawn hose wagon. Plus a space behind them for 4 to 6 horse stalls.

I want to give this a couple dozen likes!!! This is the way it is in many states but not in NY

1) NYS does not have a special certification, but their are depts here that have made this up as an excuse for not providing a basic service that is legally required if you send members into an IDLH atmosphere. FAST (RIT) training has been part of the basic program for career firefighters in NYS since the 1990's, it can be included with FF1 for volunteers, but not always available, but that is because in NYS the volunteer fire service has not demanded it. Note: this is not ment as a VFD vs Career thing, but if every rig arriving at a fire is not trained and prepared to rescue a down firefighter, its time to replace them. It is up to each member to be able to save a brother. 2) One would liketo think so. 3) I agree, but it has been very clear that most depts can not or will not do this. It is one of the most basic skills every FD needs. If the chiefs do not see the need, then its time for new chiefs. If the ff's do not see the need they need better leadership, better training or they need to be replaced. 4) For the moderators, the ability to split quotes feature is not working

B. But would this not make VFD's the same as career depts?

So if they are not called mutual aid to the scene as FAST and end up "sitting outside" They are left sitting back in their fire station in their district or are they just buffing the call to take pictures and "standing outside" anyway?

I have yet to find an engine that was "PROPERLY EQUIPPED" that had enough space for that booster. I have seen a lot that did not carry all that they should. How about the 50 to 75 extra gallons of water we could carry in its place? Its not about the money, I have bought a number of high end apparatus, but I put that money into safety, apparatus service life and high functioning systems. "Final extinguishment of a smoldering engine compartment fire."So you pack up the 1 3/4" line that you used to get to that point and then pull the booster to finish the job? "No, the fire was out when we pulled up, but there was some stuff that was still smoldering. We didn't need a large volume of water for that. The booster reel was quicker to deploy, use and repack than the 1 3/4" trash line that we would've pulled if the car still had active fire." - Ok, I'll give you that one, But,how often does this happen? and how often do you train in pulling an attack line? "Hitting some hot spots found during the investigation phase."Same as above Not exactly. In one specific situation, the attack lines had been broken down and we were preparing to leave the scene. The fire marshall found a spot that was smoldering some as he was digging thru burnt up contents. Pulling the booster reel was faster and easier than re-deploying the rolled up dirty lines or pulling a clean line. - Ok, so once you failed to do a proper overhaul and it was easier to pull the booster than to do the jop right the 1st time. "As a protection line for the engine for a short period of time while pumping a fire."If you need to protect your $500,000+ engine because you parked it too close, you need a real line Depending on how big the fire is and how close you parked to it. - Maybe the money spent on a booster would be better spent on training, particularly on rig placement. And 30 gpm is all you needed to protect it? "We've used it in several situations where we previously would've used a can. A lot easier to put a little water back in the tank back at the station than servicing the can."Saves a whole minute Saves a lot more time than that, at least the way we have to do it. - Then maybe you should see how others do it. "We get called upon to "wash down" some public areas at times. Using regular handlines, we'd often have to refill at least once to complete the job. Just the other week my engine washed down the stage area of an outdoor "bandshell" style venue with less than 200 gallons of water."How is it that you use an extra 300 gallons with the regular line? If you put out more water you complete the washdown in less time and the amount should be the same. Pretty simple, the regular line discharges far more gpms and it's been more than 300 gallons extra. In theory, but in actual practice applying the water from the bigger line can actually be inefficient. Kind of the similar to the way that a pressure washer can do the same job as a garden hose using less water. - Wow, physics, math and hydraulics do not work in your district the way I learned them. My pressure washer uses the same amount of water (as its feed by that garden hose), but because of the "PRESSURE" it does work that no amount of water will ever do.

Thanks for the reminder. I had forgotten how much "fun" it was to crank the hose back on the reel.