Bnechis

While I am not making excuses for his actions, I do know that in the 80's & 90's in more than 1 Westchester combo dept. that only staffed "paid drivers" if the "paid man" ever left the pump panel, he got put on dept charges. In otherwords, if he arrived at a fire and the volunteers had yet to arrive and he stretched the line past the front door, he was yelled at because "only the volunters are allowed to do it". I saw this on more than one occassion and I know of it in more than one dept. Once that s*** developed, I'm not surprised the "union" mic stuff came next.

Its not the state that feels that way its the volunteer fire service. The NYSPFFA (Unions) fought hard to get minimum standards for entry levelfirefighters AND for 1st line supervisors. FASNY (the lobbying organization for volunteer fire) fought hard to prevent any standards, including career ones. Albany comprimised and gave both sides what they asked for....2 standards. Actually the volunteer fire service believes that their lives are more valuable. I base this statement on the lobbying efforts over the past 4 years to change the standards of who gets on the LODD memorial. NYSPFFA wants it to be true LODD (i.e. killed at an incident, returning from or responding to or in some cases training) with no volunteer or career status attached. FASNY has fought hard to include any activity, so a volunteer who is drunk & high and falls off a picnic table at a pancake breakfast and dies should be on the wall next to the 343 FDNY Heros who died on 9/11. Its not the same and everyone knows it. If you die in the TRUE line of duty, you should be honored. Thats not a volunteer or career issue.

The sad fact is that EMT training has run anywhere from 89 hours (historicly) to about 180 hours. Many instructors have identified that to actually cover all of the material properly requires 200-300 hours. DOH, the hospitals, the agencies, and the students are not willing to PAY for that amount of training. Whats really sad is that if my mother is having a heart attack or my child is struck by a car, all that state requires is an ambulance withan EMT that has less than 200 hours of training, but If I want my head shaved in a barbers shop, the state requires the barber to have gone to school for 2 years, followed by an apprenticship and then they are elligable for taking a licencing exam (after taking a medical exam to prove they have no communicable diseases) & a criminal background check similar to EMT.

1) Which is it? In the first paragraph you want labeling for capability and the 2nd you think we should get rid of the best definition we have 2) In Westchester thats a Utility 3) In Westchester that is not a Squad (see definition): A vehicle(s) consisting of at least an Engine with or without other support vehicles (i.e.: Rescue, Ladder, or Utility Type), equipped with additional and specific equipment to handle hazardous materials / WMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction) and/or technical rescue, that will respond with a minimum of six (6) trained and certified members, included a company officer. For hazmat and WMD the minimum training level shall be Haz-Mat Technician (as identified under OSHA 1910.120) and the squad shall have the equipment necessary to perform air monitoring, level “A” suit and decontamination. For technical rescue the minimum training level shall be based on NFPA 1670. All members shall be at the technician level for structural collapse, trench rescue and confined space rescue and at the operations level for rope rescue. The squad shall have the equipment necessary to initiate a response, safely size up and identify additional resources required to safely mitigate these incidents.

1) You are correct and its called NIMS Typing. Its about the capabilities (i.e. how many trained firefighters will arriveon it) not about the tools. Do we need to list that engine 1 is equipped with a car lockout kit or is it better we standardize what rigs carry? In Great Britton, all 4 countries carry the exact same thing on an engine, nothing less and nothing more anditsin the same compartment on every rig. I watched a live burn at there officer school where 6 new Lts. (from 6 different depts) were placed on a "pump" and dispatched to a housefire (2 storyburn building). They operated togetherlike they had work the same shift for years. Wow, minimum manning of 6 and the training and sop's are so standardized that I did not know these 6 had never worked a day together. 2) Actually with a quint you know you are getting a ladder with a pump, that does not carry enough water,&/or hose, &/or ground ladders to get the job done right, or is so big it can't fit into many scenes. 3) This rescue/pumper does it just have an extrication tool ordoes it also have all the other tools needed to do "basic" rescues? Does it carry enough cribbing to handle a 2 car accident (most do not), what about a school bus accident? Can they also handle confined space, building collapse, etc.? We have an engine with a rescue style body that carries a combi tool and some cribbing (the purpose is so they can handle a very basic incident or start on a serious one while waiting the 3 minutes for a ladder company to arrive) but we do not call it a "rescue/pumper"because it is not. On the same note we also do not call our ladders "Rescue/Ladders" even though they carry more rescue equipment than many of the "Heavy" Rescue units in the county. They carry spreaders, cutters, rams, airbags (all sizes), cribbing and struts, plus jacks, assorted hand tools, water rescue equipment (one carries a boat and ice rescue suits). And they get backed up with a heavy rescue on most calls. 4) I agree, so lets label some rigs as Understaffed Engine #1 and Untrained Ladder Co # 479 and properly staffed Rescue X 5) maybe see #2 above 6) Maybe in the CHAOS (Chief Has Arrived On Scene) we need to simplifiy and standardized so there is no question as to what can be assigned to what.

NIMS typing includes minimum staffing on the unit. Westchester only lists that for Squads

The insurance ratings do not have a ladder minimum length. They rate a 55' stick the same as a 220' Bronto Platform They do rate quits as either and engine and 1/2 a ladder or a ladder & 1/2 an engine (you get to pick which it is). So they do recognize you can not do both. They also expect that to get credit for both they most carry 100% of the ladder co & 100% of the engine company required equipment. I know of no manufacturer that can build a quint that carries all the hose, water, ladders and other equipment required so your 1.5 units will get a percentage downgrade based on whats missing. THey also still expect the manpower of an engine and ladder, so if you run with less than 8 its not getting full credit.

1938 NRFD Pumper

I have shown up many times and found that even if you called it never made any difference in the time to getting a bed, unless it was a code or a trauma alert. I've had ambualnces call, get to the ER and wait up to an hour to get a bed.

Basicly, no one is using EMT-I and EMT-CC does not exist in the Westchester, NYC and I believe the Hudson Valley Regions.

While this works well in some ER's others will tell you thats already way to much. A very busy ER general only wants: Code, Trauma Alert, and a few other minor general words. They do not need to knkow how old the pt is to set up for a GSW. So you really need to know what the ER expects and will even listen too. Also who is answer the radio. If its the clerk , do they care that the patient is on O2?

1) While for some depts it might be a "bump in the road" almost everyone I know of has had a steady decline since the 1970's or 80's. Many depts had long waiting lists to get on. Now many will take anyone who walks thru the door. Temporary? Perminent? I have seen depts that have been dealing with this for 25 years. At what point is this a temporary problem? If you have had trouble for years getting out, what will change this? 2) How sad. Did you swear an oath when you joined? I did. 3) You are correct and no one is suggesting you hire. What is suggested is we do not need 59 depts with each trying to cover a few square miles 4) You can loss your identity, but most do not. Go to MD and see how some of the volunteer units have more pride than the career units in the county combo depts. They actually have more identity than most small depts in Westchester. 5) BINGO! That is the problem 6) I know a lot of depts that took over 100 years to do it and even more that will never become fully or mostly career. 7) Wow, lots of big combo depts in MD & VA do not know this. Are you saying volunteering is all about the volunteer and not about the community served? 8) Only if they fail to prove they are worthy. 9) automatic MA is not consolidating, its a band-aid. Much of this country and many other countries have already learned that this whole line is completely untrue. In 2010 NIST studied this and found that on the fire ground 2 + 2 does not = 4. if you do not arrive together and work together you are already at a loss and it takes more time for 2 two man teams working as a company than even one 3 man company. 10) you are correct and they should be consolidated. 11) Is it that we do not want the "county" or in the past we have had concerns with how Westchester County operates? 12) Some do and some do not, same is true in some career depts. The problem is more and more depts dont work and no one wants to fix them.

So I see a 2 cubic foot wastepaper basket on fire, I dial 911, they process the call and tone out the local department in 1 min. At the 10 minute mark (based on the fire propagation curve) the fire has grown to 4,096 cubic feet (a 20 x 25 room) and still no one has responded. We retone another dept. again 1 minute and they get on the road in 2 minutes. The drive from there district to the scene is 5 minutes. The fire is now consumed a 130,000 square foot structure. (approx: 500 ft x 260 ft). If your wait is that long the incident is already over.

What is the "S" plumbing?

Depends on the $$$ and I think would have a better chance if you take "county" out of it.

1) Generally only by reducing the amount of equipment, apparatus, training (if they pay for it) and recruitment/retention efforts.While this maybe possible, It rarely happens. 2) Most of the westchester depts do not have large enough budgets to cut deep enough to pay for staff.

Good question, I do not completely know. But I do know that our commercial base is the smallest of all the cities. I know that in looking at some general studies, it still showed that even if you have major differences in the commercial / residential, its still generally cheaper as the size goes up.

It does include them. Busy enough, yes. Big enough, no. We keep doing more calls with fewer resources. And as long as we stand alone, the powers that be will continue to cut away

But on the same note, how many BS "fire calls' do they also go on? Always hate when there is a delay do to bs.

If we were proactive, we would no longer be part of New York State, I'm sure Albany passed a law on that. Westchester is 433 square miles 59 Depts. approximatly 125 stations approximatly 200 engines and spares approximatly 77 Ladders, Towers and Spares approximatly 45 Rescues approximatly 17 Tankers How many of the 450+ apparatus have manning? How much are we spending (collectivly) on apparatus we cant man? On stations to house it? On maintenance? On insurance? On equipment? Now when everyone points ot the schools, we havethe same problem multiplied by 100 million dollar budgets.

1) same in the city's 2) Yes if each village went paid the community would go bankrupt. That is why most places in the world do not try to place as much apparatus in each square mile as westchester has. A few years ago I looked at the per capita paid for FD services in about half the depts in the county and what I found is the majority of the volunteer communities paid more per capita than any of the city FD's. I pay half in NR what a homeowner in Bedford hills pays. This is why regional depts. are more cost effect and without them there is no way we can afford paid services.

EMS-Buff, paid staff will not fix the problem, it will only treat the symptom. It is a short term fix, not a long term solution Goose, you are 110%

1) Yes we are and very few depts are willing to acknowledge this even to themselves. 2) If centralized there might be enough, but with 20+ agencies fighting for them and no real System, you are right we have a major shortage. 3) If the agencies dont recognize it, the politicans never will.

This is not meddling, its called contract law. The NYC fire officers contract for decades has said 10 years max.The city apparently has not been maintaining the agreement and the union took them to court. The judge agreed that the city was violating a contract that the city (not FDNY) signed.

1) Just because they are doing 3rd party billing, and have the other sources, does not mean they are well funded. 3rd party billing generally only covers a percentage of the call. Once agencies start providing perdiem staff, if they pay them for 24 hours but only do 1 or 2 calls a day, they may be into negative numbers quickly.Thats the reason its better to cover a larger area, 2) maybe they are using the 3rd party billing of Irvington patients, just like Irvington does.