Bnechis

At the FDSOA vehicle seminar in January, This was a major topic (many members of the NFPA committee were there) one of the speakers (he was from FDNY) spoke about the LA City Helmets, but he called them "Flower Pots"......

In the US Fire Service, an appliance is any device that water flows thru. Since water flows thru the pump on the U.K. "pumps" that may be why the term "Appliance" is used.

I'm sure laws would need to be amended since town law dictates when town & FD elections...etc. They could coordinate all of them to be in whatever voting districts already exist for the general elections (since they are the largest). The local clerk and the county board of elections get paid to coordinate the general election, it would just require the fire district secretary to give the ballot info to them (for example).

Great point. The problem for the tax payer is to protect oneself and hold elected official accountable every month you need to go to the fire district meeting, along with the town board, zoning board, planning board, school board....etc... I think you would also get more participation if the Fire District Elections and all other elections were held in November, that way you might actually see more than 30 people vote. Also setting up an election day is paid for by the tax payer, so why do we need to pay for state/fed (nov), FD (dec), town/village (march), school (may) instead of paying 4x........do it once and get more people out. In Westchester, At least 2 districts had Taxpayer group members elected not to reduce the tax, but to prevent the districts from building new fire stations that they felt were not needed. The Non-Profit schools are another issue. We have 2 in NR (a 3rd is for profit and they pay taxes) and in addition to paying no tax, we subsidize the hydrants for them. Our water system is privatly owned and the FD pays an annual fee per hydrant. We have requested that the PSC (public service commission) which sets the water rates, require that all users pay there fair share (which would be based on their size) that way a school with 18 large buildings would pay more than a single family home. The PSC has refused to take action, so our non-profits get their hydrants payed for by the taxpayers. Can you explain how the bidding process is a scam? In my experience the scam is most FD's do not follow the bidding process.

In many cases the elected officals are more afraid of upsetting the VFD then the general public, because they believe the FF's will vote as a group (even if this is untrue). I watched one well to do bedroom community debate about replacing an aging rearmount ladder. They hired a consultant (not me) and his recomendation was to get a light weight 100' rearmount. The reasoning was both the type of structures (no building over 3 stories and over 90% single family homes) and weight (what the fire house could hold along with a limit on a number of bridges in the district). The FD determined after paying for the report that the consultant did not know what he wastalking about (even though they told the mayor to hire this expert to advise them). The Dept. requested the largest tower ladder they could get and the Mayor and council voted 100% to buy it and renovate the fire house to hold it. After the vote, the local newspaper interviewed one of the council members and asked about why they bought the tower instead of following the consultants report and the council member answer "Our volunteers deserve the best and this truck is the best available". The buck may stop with the politician....but politicians are often willing to spend $$$ for the sake of spending, even if its not needed.

I bet some cop in the sky was able to zoom in and see it with all that high tech spy stuff

Great Question!

I was thinking, why do all these rigs need seating for 6?

I does not mean they would get rid of the volunteers in the other districts. But maybe it would force them to evaluate what staffing they really need (particularly if they do not have enough staff now).

Chris i must have been looking at something else, you are correct. Its also interesting that the info comming out of both the state chiefs & fire districts is claiming its shall

This has nothing to due with Counties. It only effects Fire Districts which by Current Law exist only within Towns. It also has nothing to due with getting rid of volunteers. It just gives towns an option to fill the ranks, if they can't fill them any other way. The only ones I see who will be swept aside are the Fire Commissioners.

1. I read that the town board "shall" 2. There are depts with multiple ba's now. 3. I mentioned Mt. Pleasant as an example. I don't know if a formal study has been done, but I have done enough studies to know what is needed based on NFPA and ISO standards. 4. By the Town Board

"The response time would go down and the tax payer bill would go up." said Townline Firefighter Fred Adams. The proposal would make it easier for voters to pass a referendum to get rid of volunteer fire departments, consolidate districts, and move to county paid fire protection." 1) Response time would go down is a good thing. 2) Tax payer bill would go up......That's not what has happened elsewhere. 3) Consolidated districts and a move to county paid fire protection - Yes this legislation moves to consolidate fire districts by merging them under the local town governmnet. So in westchester the following might occur; In Harrison; "Downtown, Purchase and West Harrison" wold become 1 department. Would it save the taxpayers $$$, dont know, but now they need 9 engines under ISO, if merged they would need 4 to keep the same rating. But if they added a station on North St (by PD & VAC HQ) they would improve town wide response and ISO rating (and with all the Corporations on Westchester Ave it could save $10 - $20 million/yr in premiums). In Mt Pleasant; It would merge Archville, Hawthorne, Pichantico hills, Pleasantville, Sleepy Hollow, Thornwood, & Valhalla under one dept. currently they have about 19 engines and under ISO would need about 12. At $500,000 equipped the replacement value is $3.5 million. In Greenburgh it would merge Fairview, Greenville and Hartsdale. Bedford, Cortland, Lewsboro, Yorktown would all see similar results. No where in the legislation is "county government" involved and no where is "paid fire protection" an issue. In fact in many cases VFD's that are having trouble getting manning will do better since they will have to man fewer units per station and it will reduce the need to go "paid". "It just isn't right. We try our best. We do it basically free and it just isn't right." said Adams." ALS was right on this one. We tried our best to save your child, but........... And tell the taxpayers on Long Island that its Basically For free. They have VFD's with budget career depts only hope for. "Response times will go up. Staffing is going to be minimal, just what they need on a truck to cover. Just what they feel is necessary." said Randall Rider President of the Association of Fire Districts. He says the quality of your protection would go down and response times and cost would go up. "The study was done in 2003. It was between 4 and 7 billion then. Now, it would be 8 and a half billion dollars to go to a paid service across New York State." said Rider. 1) Staffing is going to be minimal? How many depts (paid or vol) currently get out the in one minute with 3ff/1of? How many meet any standards. If each dept only had to get 1 or 2 rigs out and the other "stations" did the same it would be easier to get the rigs out quicker with better staffing. 2) The study that was done in 2003 was a total sham. To scare everyone as to cost, it claimed that every vol would have to be replaced with a paid ff (one for one). They included in the numbers non active members, associate members, jr members, non interior members...etc. And they did not include the cost of LOSAP as a current cost. They also did not mention the comptrollers reports that showed how LOSAP were drastically underfunded to get past voters. The also claimed that every vol. station would have to be fully staffed (2 eng, ladder, rescue, chief) which in any large City, region or county system you never find that many staffed rigs, because you have additional stations to provide the 2nd due. "We'll take it out. " said State Senator Dale Volker.......... He is fighting the bill now saying the move is designed as a way to regionalize services, but it won't lower your taxes. "The problem with some of this consolidation stuff is that you don't save any money at all. What they mean is somebody else takes care of it and probably it'll cost more by the somebody else that takes care of it." said Volker. Smoke and Mirrors - "The problem with some of this" and "probably it'll cost more" The bigger issue with this legislation is do not think that your department can get away with high cost and minimal protection forever. The taxpayers have had enough, if its not this legislation it will be something like Mass Propisiton 2 1/2 or Calif Prop 13 that will prevent your dept from getting the funding its use to.

Having been an NFPA committee member I see that too many ff's want nothing to do with the process. Since everyone has the ability to comment on what the committee is developing, if you dont comment then whose falt is it? Can you explain how "Our rigs are too big because of NFPA"? Other than forcing everyone of the back step into an inclosed cab like many rigs were in the 1930 - 40's or during the 60's in inner cities that had to protect the members from rocks. what makes our rigs so big is depts that ride with 2 ff's but buy 10 man cabs so they can get a trophy at the parade. The single biggest killer of firefighters is cardiac and prevention is addressed in NFPA 1500 which has been out for over 10 years, how many FD's follow it? 2nd biggest killer is responding/returning from calls. 2 issues here 1st not wearing seat belts is #1, NFPA requires it maybe if more depts followed it there would be less LODD. 2nd issue is rigs that were modified or remain in service beyond there save life (also an NFPA issue).

Thanks. Thats the 1st explination I've ever heard. It would have been nice if the powers that be acknowledged our issue and tried to get it reprogrammed.

1) Not every dept actually does this. 2) I said he was directing traffic not interior FF The bigger issue is at what point is a death no longer LODD, and just the inevitable

In NYS its almost imposible because the state pension system. CT does it differently

Since career Depts (in NYS) have manditory retirement age, this would apply more to vol. ff's; Is it realistic to consider it a LODD when an 89 y/o volunteer who is on cardiac meds, and has a host of other medical issues who responds to a fire and is directing traffic when he has "the big one" ? a) should he have been allowed to participate in the 1st place? Is the duty the cause of his death or its being 89 with cardiac issues and it was just his time?

Great Point

In the case of a career chief is it part of his compensation package? One reason for the car 24/7 is that it may be cheaper than paying him/her additional salary. He/she is also required to pay income tax on this benefit. Its one thing to expect a chiefs car that is intended to be available to respond to emergencies to be in/near town, its another thing to expect a vehicle that is part of a compensation package, that allows it to be removed from the area. Don't most Police chiefs have a take home car? Most City, Mayors, Manager, DPW and other agency heads also have it as part of there compensation packages.

You left out one historical point. Before the FAST truck, FDNY had Engine Company Firefighter Assist Teams. This title was a problem.....nobody wants to be on the FAT Engine.

Agreed, but not sending enough firefighters on any call is also substandard, but 95% of the departments don't meet any of the standards (NFPA, ISO, ICMA, etc.) This is an even bigger injustice and also opens one to litigation. Not having enough members increases the chance of injury on all calls, not just working fires. I was out for 8 months after an on the job injury partially due to substandard manning on an EMS call. (FAST would not have helped, but manning would have).

Run cards were used in the 1870's...no caller, just pull a lever and the alarm office or the house watchman did the rest.

Our bigger problem with CAD is when its not followed: i.e. CAD says E2, E4, E1 and the dispatcher says E1, E2, E4 When responding from multiple stations the order tells us who is responsible for what fuction (1st due, 2nd due, etc.). A few dispatchers put it in numeric order even when the CAD has it correct.

Run cards worked fine for over 100 years