Bnechis

No one would be liable. There is no legal requirement ("duty to act") in terms of mutual aid. When you sign the MA plan it says you will attempt to assist. So in court you have no real responsability. And how much liability does a local FD have if it does not provide enough manpower? Under GML 207a you cant sue if you get hurt or killed. So the only liability is if a building owner (who didn't have insurance) believes you did not provide adequate protection, hard one to prove. Which big shot leaders are you refering to? the politicians...Local, county, state, etc.? the chiefs? the union officials? THe VFD organizations (that have lobbied against almost everything) Yes it should be discused...But you either have a solution or you will be discusing this for the next 50 years.

MV had a ladder pipe and TL in the front and NR L12 in the rear. What else was needed or could have fit (particularly since they were trying to keep the rigs uphill & upwind)?

The problem is not who is or is not going MA. The problem is why does almost every department (career and vol) need to call multiple departments for MA every time they have a fire. Is it that no one has enough personnel? Is it that we are trying to cover more turf than we can handle? What good is it to have 1 or 2 or even 3 firefighters per rig? Does it really matter if 2 engines show up with 2 on each or if you send only 1 with 4 ff's. Why do we have more engines in westchester than FDNY? Everyone thinks the answer is more manning (which it is) but are we actually going to get it? The taxpayers want reduced taxes and do not care about the FD until they are dialling 911 The state wants to consolidate depts. (which is how most frie service outside the North east is done). So the unions, the chiefs and even the vol. can complain all they want about needing more manning, unless you can do it for less than you spend today...its falling on deaf ears. MA was intended to help in a disaster, not every time you have a call. Consolidation would resolve this, because then every rig is properly staffed and the closest unit goes. Can you imgine if FDNY had never consolidated? They did it because they did not have a system, just lots of independent units (sounds like the 58 Westchester depts.).

Just because we do not respond to WC Airport, does not mean we do not have the background to be here. PCFD has much better capabilities than most VFD's and this response does not strip the community to the same extent as others. Who is incharge? I thought it was the airport operator, until they pass command to the IC. DES always has claimed that they support that, but are not incharge. In the past the response plan was developed by the 3 fire depts that the airport falls within their districts plus airport ops and the MA coordinator for the airport. The last plan I saw (do not know if it is the current one or not) has only had minor changes over the years, and few had to do with the fire dept response. Besides my original question of should there be different levels of response based on the potential hazards, sending "additional" apparatus (if not needed) increases the risk to all members and the public. Another issue if everyone is staged in the airport, they are way out of position if the aircraft does not make it to the runway. I remember a small plane that landed (by mistake) on the grass at SUNY, right next door, but from the airport you need to go almost all the way back to PFD's house to get to SUNY. How many aircraft have gone down in the lake, or as someone pointed out what if the plane crashes into a building...my what if is they miss the building, but hit the staging area. About 13 years ago, I asked why the response plan only sent 1 BLS ambulance but 16 fire trucks and was told by the experts that they did not want to strip the communities of ambulances, I was also told the EMS never came to the meetings so they were not included in the plan (it was later determined that PC/R/RB & HVAC had never been invited). Much to the regrete of a number of people I made my concerns well known. And after "making my voice heard" The airport bought the MCI trailer, rewrote parts of the plan and held a number of training workshops then another drill. Major improvements were made. That does not mean it can be better. I put my original post up to simply question the status quo. I'm not saying the plan is right or wrong, I'm saying keep evaluating and re-evaluating the way we are doing things. And asking the questions "why" (do we do it like this or not like that) and is there a better, faster, safer way? And while the number of people who post here is small the readership is not. And I know that some of the people who can make changes activly read this and maybe they will consider what everyone says here.

Cemeteries should be..... 1) how much service do we provide them? If running EMS, our response times are way to slow for the residence. 2) Have you ever tried to collect on someone taking a dirt nap......THey are never going to pay. 3) "Death & Taxes" ....the only thing that is absolute. I think the writer did not mean both at the same time. LMAO....

I think thats a poor comparison. If the tower knows what is coming in, id compare it more to sending 1 Engine & 1 Truck to a car fire vs. 3e,2t,r,c. We send different fire response to different types of buildings, i.e high rise gets a different response than a shed...even though they are both "structure fires".

And the SUV on 684 can hit an MC306 Tanker with E85 Etanol. All the foam at the airport wont put this one out. Not knowing the type of aircraft on dispatch is one thing (however the tower should know and advise). Being able to spread out makes sense, but the airport plan always had (dont know if it still does) all units stage on airport rd then procede in thru the same control gate (not spread out). 9/11 has had little effect on the response plan, since this is almost the same response they sent 15 years ago. And if memory serves the reason for sending so much was the airport is 1/3 in PC (now RB), 1/3 in P and a 1/3 in A's district and everyone wanted a piece of the action.

Always found the airport response to be amazing. One thing if its a large plane, but this was not. I can fit more people and fuel into an FD suburban and if I roll it over on 684 at the airport exit do I get 5 Engines 2 Ladders 1 Rescue 1 BLS & 2 ALS Amulances 1 ALS Fly Car 8 Chiefs, & 4 Coordinators Plus I suspect at least 1 ARFF unit.

The state could mandate an annual emergency service fee in lieu of property tax, that would not violate IRS code.

But effectively it does. If the district doubles the budget it also doubles the tax rate. Don't fire districts hold a vote on both 1 of the 5 commissioners and the budget (both operating and capital) every 2nd tue in December or March? They send it to the town for collection, not for review and it does not become part of the town budget. The town assesser or tax collector acts as their agent.

Fairview (both the one in Dutchess and the one in Westchester have a similar problem. To many tax exempt properties to provide a fair tax bill. For the most part the county can do almost nothing to help. While they own DCC and other properties, if they decided to pay an inlue of payment, some one from another part of the county would complain that they were spending "their" tax money with no reguard for them. (I'm not saying this is right, just the argument that will be used.) We have fought for many years to get 2 not for profit colleges to pay inlue of tax payments without luck. We even tried to get the public service commission to change the way hydrants are paid for (we rent them, and the non-profits get them for free). The state would need to change the law to help here. Good luck. I'm sorry to say that there are 2 problems with forming a Town FD: 1) the taxpayers in the other districts may feel that they are subsidizing your district and not want to see there rates go up. 2) It is currently illegal to have a town fire dept (a townwide fire district is ok). This year there was a proposal in the state budget to "force" this issue. If it had passed the town could go to referendum to form a town FD. The NYS Assoc. of Fire Chiefs fought against it. I loved the EMINENT domain comment on the news site, 1st time I've ever agreed with it. Its a great threat, since the US Supreme court said that it can be used for the economic betterment of the community (Susette Kelo, et al. v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469 (2005). "Posted - Large parcels of land available to any interested developer - $1 per Acre to any project that will pay full property tax. Location: in the area of Marist.... Contact FFD" Then send notice that you plan on taking property to fund the district. That should get there attention Wish I could be more possitive. The main answer is merge, make a larger tax base and things will get better. Very tough thing to do. The other option is to play The ISO game. What's your rating (particularly in the area of Marist and St Fransis). Determine how much money you are or could be saving them. Then you could show how funding you can save them money. Also why do you provide medivac standby at a hospital. Have them certify as a helipad and then its not needed (like at West med.) or have them "pay" for protection. Good luck

Sometimes its the other way around. The leadership trying to improve the dept.; better managment, training, sop's, etc. and the old boys not going along with it.

I was told (by YFD) that they treated over 125 people (most treat and release). The biggest problem was they site ran out of water and no one was willing to go to where the water was, for fear of losing his/her spot

So what else is new in this county

We go on City seniority. So the 15 or so NR Cops who took our test and got hired keep their seniority for vacation and some other benefits (but not pay). The FF's who lateraled did not keep seniority, but kept pension time (as did the cops). Mt Vernon PD in the 80's & 90's had a big problem with "Badge drain" they paid poorly and guy got 1 or 2 years of experience andwould transfer to village depts. Going to starting pay...which was often higher.

About 10 years ago we took transfers from at least 4 other departments. We did not have an active list at the time and NYS Civil Service approved it.

Note: I did not say anything about vollies. I can think of a lot of "snappy" comebacks to this line....but thats not the point.

Does anyone see a problem that there were 21 chiefs (plus DES/OEM) but only 14 engines & 5 trucks? DCurtis - "Yeah, there was an awful lot of manpower there. Its better to be safe than sorry and have them on hand when you need them. Plus it seemed like just about everybody was put to work." Agreed that having enough manpower when needed is important, but how much supervision is needed?

Too many depts. buy parade rigs and not rigs to get the job done, and done safely.

The FDSOA (Fire Department Safety Officers Association) has determined that the painted steel bumper is stronger in a crash and protects our members better. If you try to lift most of the chrome ones with a heavy wrecker the back end bends up into the cab. Peirce rates their painted steel at 50,000 Ibs, FDNY's must be 80,000 Ibs on an engine.

If you try, you had better bring your SCBA. DEP and myself videoed the inside of the Croton "Gate House". The O2 level drops to about 12%. Without SCBA you pass out at around 16%

If its OSHA required training (Hazmat, Confined Space, Trench, Bloodborne, etc.) OSHA says the employer is responsible to ensure adequate training. The employer is the dept. (does not mater if its career or VFD). This means that one dept can except anothers training. But they must prove that the level of training meets the minimum standard. this may include testing. The most important part is documenting this. The interesting part is that the law does not recognize any OSHA training that is taught by OFPC. If you take Hazmat Ops. and get a cert from OFPC. The law requires your agency to document the following: objectively demonstrate competency in the following areas 1910.120(q)(6)(i)(E) An understanding of the role of the first responder awareness individual in the employer's emergency response plan including site security and control and the U.S. Department of Transportation's Emergency Response Guidebook. 1910.120(q)(6)(ii)( Know how to select and use proper personal protective equipment provided to the first responder operational level. 1910.120(q)(6)(ii)(D) Know how to perform basic control, containment and/or confinement operations within the capabilities of the resources and personal protective equipment available with their unit. 1910.120(q)(6)(ii)(F) An understanding of the relevant standard operating procedures and termination procedures. OFPC can not have you demonstrate competency in local dept equipment and SOP's since they dont know what they are. The best is every member must be trained in the depts WRITTEN EMERGENCY RESPONSE PLAN. How many depts even have this?

In 1999 I spent some time at Morton-On-March the Fire College for the UK. They were running what we would call 1st line supervisors. They had about 30 newly promoted 1st time career officers going thru training. I followed a group of 6 who were assigned to a pump (engine co). They were given 6 scenarios and at each on everyone rotated officer, mpo, nozzle, etc. Now these 6 officers had never met before, they were from 6 different depts. in 3 different countries (England, Scotland, & Wales). They worked like they had been stationed togeter for years. The SOP's are the same, the equipment is the same and the rigs are the same, right down to each compartment i.e. comp. #4 has the same equipment in it in London and in Inverness (No. Scotland). Makes it very easy to switch depts. when the main difference is the name on the door.

I actually had to reread this to understand it. And it is completely WRONG. Its not set up to hire tose less qualified, its set up to keep them out. If you score an 80 on the test in 2000 and you are #25 on the list and we hire 5 per year. You die #10 on the list and the 15 who scored higher are not taking the next test, but there are a few who are better who missed the last test and a few new people who were not eligable the last time. So in 2003 you study harder and score an 86 and your 18 on the list, but again we only hired 15. out of luck. In 2006 you finally scored a 95, but it was an easy test and 30 scored higher. THe must be more qualified, so how is this unfair to the less qualified? The reason the list is a four (4) year list is at least in NR case it cost us over $70,000 everytime we run a test. Could the system be better...yes. Is it massively flawed...no. The Civil service system was set up to be fair and hire the most deserving. Without it, the chief would hire the brother of the councilman and the kid whose dad gave the most to the mayors reelection or his kid who would be in Sing Sing if the chief did not play hiring games with the pd chief kid. Since your hiring concept is wrong........so is this. Promotional tests are done on a 2 year cycle so its even harder to get promoted than hired. And the # of openings is so small that in most cases if you do not score in the top 3, you dont stand a chance. In my case I scored #1 or #2 on 4 test before I got promoted to LT and #1 or #2 on 3 tests before Capt. If there are no openings it does not matter how you score. Thats why I'm explaining it from up close and personal. Not here. But in other places...i.e. in Detroit (I've been told) they do not do promotion tests, just seniority lists. If you out live everyone you get promoted.

Well Said