Bnechis

If you can't use a halligan, then your dept. bought the wrong kind. There are a lot of designs out there if the fork end is fat, its useless. Look at which type is used by depts that do lots of F.E. If its not a fast process, then you need to d o a lot more training. When Capt. Morris (FDNY R1 Commander) 1st started showing the techniques his truck company was using, it was hard to believe that they were forcingdoors faster with a good set of irons than any other tools, including a rabit tool. So you are willing to plunge a saw into a door that you do not know if it may have people up against it? Wait if they are up against it and the panic hardware didn't work, then the framming square wont either.....lets go back to prying. Its not a lost art...most ff's never learned it in the 1st place. Most were shown a video and maybe got to pry 1 door. It may do less damage, but it still totals the door, particularly if it is a fire rated door. And again speed is based on training. If I have to also get the saw (plus start it) and the square that also takes time If you force into the stairwell of many buildings, the doors to each floor may also be locked, so you must bring it. Also leaving the square is not an issue, the $1,500+ saw is. Themembers already have 50 pounds of s***, now add the saw while they are searching. You can never have too many tricks...you can have too many tools. Particularly if you do not train enough with the basics.

So what happens when 15 "firefighters" show up at a house fire and none chose to go in because they are exterior guys? When a department claims they have "X" number of firefighters protecting the community, does the community know that some, many, or all may not be willing (or able) to perform interior. Thats BS. You open yourself to a lawsuit if you deny entry do to race, religon, sex, origin...etc. If you set a performance standard, thats based on the job...i.e members shall pass the following training, and a medical, and drug screening, and........... A lot of volunteers claim "we do the same job for free" are you saying that that statement is false? A lot of the career members here were volunteers first.

Nope, but I think Chief Jonker pointed out a major issue that is present in many depts. "thats how its always been done"......is not a good answer, If the answer is "we've determined its the best way because......" then it may be a good answer.

Very well said. Many depts. fall into this trap. Most have been lucky for way to long, but as this incident shows, its just a matter of time. Thanks Chief

most career depts do. Often in October (fire prevention week/month)

We have depts that permit apparatus to go RLS thru intersections without slowing down or yielding, so why would they worry about liability for lack of training?

Go back to my previous post It only big news to buffs

We complain when police officers, without PPE, or training run into a burning building....what makes this any different? Are ff's trained or have PPE for chasing an armed criminal? Maybe these FF's thought that since the FD is under the sherifs office, they are covered.

Without doing an actual ISO road distance analysis, I used that location and drove out (on the map) and it looks like the furthest points are 2.44 miles. ISO wants 1.5 miles max. They will allow up to 5 miles, but they take points away based on the % of the community beyond 1.5 miles. This is a big step, that if done right will help the dept for the next 50 - 100 years. If the insurance premiums are a consideration, they better understand that if this location is a good one or will it cost the property owners for the next 50 - 100 yrs.

Could this be the reason that many dept's skip one dept for another in who they request MA?

HazMat Ops given by OFPC does not nor has it ever met all of the OSHA requirements for Hazmat Ops. The Law is clear on the training required and Only your agency is qualified to complete that training and it is required prior to the 1st response you make. (read 29CFR 1910.120). Also OFPC use to teach HMO in 15 hrs, then they said do the same material in 9. When you look over what they require, it can not be completed in the time given to it in FF1.

I don't have a problem with outside helpers....but, they should not be called firefighters. It can be very decieving when a dept claims to have X number of firefighters when 30%, 50% or whatever wont go in. How serious is this? If a department has 35 active members and 1/2 wont do interior attack, the remaining 17 or 18 are not enough people and you need to bring in more people (paid or vol). What happens when only 2 interior members respond, are you counting the outside "helpers" counted as the 2 out? They can't. Of greater importants, how many members who have completed the training (regardless of what level it is) and are considered "interior" are unwilling or unable to enter an actual (not at the training center) structure fire.

Thats the roof man. He is covered under minimum manning in the last contract.

Overall its a pretty good idea. The one thing they have to be careful with is the ISO rating, particularly for distribution. they want an engine to be within 1.5 road miles. Peekskill is 4.32 sq. miles. which is just over the distances. It can be done without losing points but the location is very critical.

Oh Chris....................... LMAO

See Charlston SC. If it can be missused it will be. They take up low space that is needed for heavy items or if up in the dunnage area, limit access to the pump for maintenance, and I've seen crews step on pump outlets and handles to clear jambs. They tend to leak as the rig gets older and they are not cheap. Hazmat decon we used larger lines if we need to do mass (gross) decon (need a higher flow than a booster) or garden hose for 99% of technical decon, because a booster flows way to much and we need to control and capture run off. Most texts say never use for dumpster fires because you do not know whats in there. Can get over run if it turns out you have flammables or other hazmat in it.

Glad you posted that. And if not an "Incomplete Extinguishment" it means the arsonest came back to finish the job.

What are you talking about (particularly the bold/underlined)?

Most of our rigs have fiberglass, it has the same capabilities as poly. A lot seems to depend on who is building your rigs and if they have a preference.

Yes it could. I would not put those members on trial either....but the leadership has a lot to answer for.

That movement is at least 20 years old, last I had heard (over 7 yrs ago) about 4 states allowed insurance companies to use there own rating system. Good or bad that ment that it was still the primary rating system in 46 states. Allstate tried to use their own system in one of those states (cant remember which) after 4 yrs they found they had lost $$ and went back to ISO. The only reason for an insurance company to not use ISO is the thought that it can save money, in part by not paying ISO for its rating service and in part because it had come up with another way to do the rating. The problem is the ratings are in part based on 100 yrs of actuarial tables, that are hard to argue with because with a large enough statistical base, it is correct. This is also how a dept can have a reat rating, but not be doing it "right", they are a statisitcal anomaly.

Maybe, the problem isn't the municipality not enforcing the code its the lack of commitment to doing anything other than repondinig to fire on the part of the local fire dept. A lot of communities fall under this (but its been changing). A number of years ago the NYS Dept. of State did an analysis of all communities in the state and found that the communities that strongly enforced the code since 1984 (when the NYS UFP&BC went into effect) had drimatically reduced there fires and those that didn't still had a high rate of fires. FD's need to prevent fires, not just respond to them. The U.S. has the highest fire rates of any industrialized nation on the planet...why? Because the fire service for 100 yrs didnot belive in prevention. Go to Germany or France or England and they use up to 50% of there personnel to do fire prevention (they are available for fires in dept cars). The most agressive code & inspection program in the US is the Reedy Creek Fire Protection District (Disney), they inspect every restaurant daily and have never had a kitchen fire..... By that statement all calls except fires would also be a waste of manpower & equipment. Hell why bother with an FD at all....just have the mayor respond with a check book. then we would never waste anything. The fire will go out at some point. We get triaged and actually do about 1,500 fewer EMS calls than the ambulance service does. If the PD did a better job of forwarding 911 calls to our dispatch we could cut that number even more. The same could be said for any other type of call, this thread talked about why M/A was needed during an MVA. What if a fire came in during an MVA? Maybe we should not respond to MVA's because they leave us with limited resources in the event of a fire. What about training? If we are out training, we may have a fire response. Some firefighters do not believe it is important to provide service other than fire response, and while some "customer service" responses are a waste of time, the depts. that willingly respond to all types of requests, get better equipment, contracts due to the support of the community. Otherwise, the community believes in the old concept of the fireman sitting around playing cards on my dime and the will never support that, particularly when taxes are so high.

AGREED Exactly, there are a number of combo depts. that the career staff has been saying they have almost no active vol., but the dept, or commisioners or the municipality, says that they have plenty of staff..."look there are 300 vol on the list" No. There is no way any dept can have enough staff to cover every incident and it would be cost prohibative. Even FDNY has its 500 series fleet that is intended to be staffed with call back in the event of a disaster. How many other Tech resources do you think there are and if you called them in, you would be stripping their communities, which you are advocating we dont do. HFD23 said they were called because All engines were unavailable for fire response. All of the resources you listed above do not answer the fact that there were no more engines in town. Then you can only consider YFD to be properly staffed. Only 40% of our units meet this. Agreed, on the same note, this should be considered for any dept (or depts) should look at this. the majority of both combo and vol depts in this county need M/A for every fire. Something is wrong!

That fact can pay for improvements in the department and I have seen it prevent reductions in personnel and equipment. Developers and other finance types do look at this. If you look at communities with good rating, not only does the FD make a point of it, but the City's Dept of Development will wave it around like a banner. While ISO's rating is slow to modernize, it has been around for over 100 years. I found a review of my dept. from 1920 and it was interesting to see it had a vets report of the health of our hourses. Today they require spare rigs, then they required spare horses.

One of the biggest problems with the ISO system is that it only looks at certain items. You can have a booster line for minor brush fires, but if your dept is still in the 1970's an uses them on interior fires ISO does not know that. In the 1970's most depts used 2 1/2" supply, Some of the biggest Depts in the Country still use 3 or 3 1/2" The ISO equipment list is based on NFPA 1901 (which is a minimum standard...you can/should do better), but what makes members question it is they use the 1980 edition (which for equipment has not changed drimatically, but there are a few dumb things on it). Why the 1980 edition......Because the ISO rating has to be improved by the Insurance Commisioner in every state. If they updated the standard every time NFPA changed they would have to then get the new listed approved by each state dept of insurance. Instead, hey have come up with a list of alternativies, i.e. It says a truck co, must carry a toarch, they will credit that or a spreader/cutter system. I'm not overly impressed with ISO..........But they are the only rating that comes with an economic benefit for FD's that improve themselves. About 10 years ago there was a research paper that came out of the chief executive officer program at the NFA that showed a coralation. The better your rating the lower your fire injury & fatality rate, so there is something to it. Of greater importance: If you are not impressed with a department with a good rating, what does that say about the majority of departments that have shitty ratings?