Bnechis

Recieving help and needing help are 2 different issues. I said: "If your dept. needs to use non dept members who are "offering there services" on a regular basis, you have major problems." If you need this type of help on a simple call (i.e. AFA, car fire, room and content fire, etc.) then your department does not have enough members and you must change that in a substantial way. Maybe it is the best indicator that the dept. needs to consolidate with other dept(s) or hire career or even paid on call firefighters What this also means is that you are not meeting any of the standards that exist in the fire service (NFPA 1500, 1710, 1720, ISO, ISMA, CFAI, etc.) I have no problem offering help or depending on the situation, recieving help.

Its been NY state law for at least 30 years and it has nothing to do with career or vol depts. It was designed to keep volunteers from multiple volunteer depts. IAFC wants career members to volunteer, which has been legal in NYS for as long as I can remember.

Having evaluated over a doz. depts. for ISO improvements, I think I get their system. ISO clearly requires 12 on-duty (in house) firefighters and an IC or 36 on-call (from home/work) firefighters and an IC on EVERY fire call. This is not just on the rolls, this is on every fire call. For combo depts., for every on-duty member you get credit for 3 call members. ISO does not count the number of members in your dept. for response purposes, they count the average # that respond. If you have a minimum manning policy, they follow that as the average. ISO does count the number of members and divides the total training hours by that number to get the average training hours per member. This hurts departments that do not seperate social members, members who are away at school or military or have medical issues that prevent them from responding/training (even if temporary). Having lots of members who do not do enough training hurts your rating.

I never said depts in Westchester or in Dutchess would "turn down" help. You missed my entire point.

Even if the volunteer had equal or even a higher level of training and experience.... what about team work? Why do we have SOP's? You don't need to know how we do it? or do you? If your dept. needs to use non dept members who are "offering there services" on a regular basis, you have major problems. This writer also assumes that volunteers are free. Wouldn't PFD have to purchase PPE, pay for medicals, workers comp. and provideing career supervision/training? There is also an assumption that a volunteer firefighter is equal to a career firefighter. ISO says it takes 3 to equal 1. So if PFD layed off 4 ff's (1 per shift) it would require a minimum of 3 volunteers to respond to every "fire" call just to stay even. Past threads have said that PFD is understaffed now. Historically most combo depts have trouble getting volunteers to respond to AFA's. This could change PFD's ISO PPC rating which could cost property owners millions$$. Finally, as already mentioned, where will these volunteers come from? Will they just be "stealing them" from adjacent FD's who in turn may need to hire the laid off PFD members.

NYS says you cant volunteer in 2 VFD's FLSA (federal) says you cant volunteer where you work (in general, not just in the FD)

Yep, a truck needs to be set up to do truck work.

2007 ALF 100' rearmount truck, no pump, no tank, lots of ground ladders, lots of compartment space for tools.

its a 1997 Simon Duplex 75' LTI, 2000 GPM 300 gal tank. Its the perfect example of the short comings of a quint: Not enough water or hose to be a good engine, and not enough ground ladders, compartment space (for tools), or long enough aerial to be a good truck. But, its in good shape and will work fine as a spare (and yes its a spare).

The majority of our requests are do to "lifeline alerts". Most in Sr. Citizen High Rise buildings that have a master key in the knox box. We have found it very common that the resident has changed the look in violation of the lease. The building maintenance repair/replace the door and the building bills the resident if they changed the lock. We bang on the door, if no response we end up entering and searching (person maybe uncons.) Often we find no one home, often already in the hospital or even already buried. In addition to getting PD there to secure the scene and as a witness to our actions, they maybe needed for other risks. About 10 years ago, My engine was dispatched to an apartment for a CVA. The call was from the patients wife who was at work in White Plains, Dispatch advised that she was on the phone with him when his speech slured and he dropped the phone, her ETA with the key was 25 minutes. Upon arrival we found a looked 5th fl apt. with no ladder access. The nieghbor said he had at least 1 CVA recently, and after banging on the door we got no response. My nozzleman picked both locks (he's a licensed locksmith), 1 cop, 1 medic, 1 EMT, 1 FF and myself searched the apt and found no one. The Bathroom had a 2 way key deadbolt and was locked (did not think it was an issue at that moment, turns out it was set up as a safe room). We started out of the apt., when the patient came out of the bathroom and pointed a 38 at me and said "What are you doing in my apartment"? Note. his speach was slurred. I yelled "Gun" then advised him we were leaving. As we cleared the apt. the sector cop was yelling at him to drop his weapon. he yelled back he was a member of NRPD. As we cleared the door, the officer asked for his name and when given it, the officer said he had never heard of him on the NRPD. He said he was retired. Another round of drop the gun, and the sector officer and myself also telling dispatch what was happening. PD dispatch advised the sector to not let him out of the apt. and he was extremly dangerous. This turned into a barricaded suspect that the tactical team had to remove. Turned out this was a past CVA patient, who was having an additional medical issue. The pt. was also a former (not retired) cop, who was fired for improper actions including an assult(s). You never know what will be on the other side of the door. It was nice to have someone on our side with a gun, next time I want him up front, not in the back.

One problem that you did not mention was the IC must also understand truck work. I have witnessed a number of working fires in the northern portion of the county and was suprised when chiefs ordered truck companies to stay out of the block, so the engines could get in position. One fire that needed a ladder up front, it arrived 1st, was ordered to stay out and was then blocked by 3 engines. Later when they realized they needed it, they had to move 1,200' of charged 5" and 2 engines that were hooked up. I also see that engines routinly stop infront of the building so the cross lay works well. To get good truck work the engine needs to drive past the structure. This is one reason that many city depts stretch off the rear.

I strongly agree Time in is important, because of experience. But good experience or bad is an issues also time needs to be considered, is it 5 years of experience or 1 year repeated 5 times. Also lack of time is big issue in combo depts. When a career officer with 25 years is overruled by the 19 year old officer (who he trained) creates major problems. Survival and FAST should be required for all interior ff's before they are allowed to go interior. Hazmat Ops. is required by NYS law prior to any member responding on any call. A mentoring program is a great idea. FLIPS is mandated by NYS Law for all career officers, but it is not a mentoring program, any ride-alongs are for "fun" and to learn how FDNY operates not to teach officers to be officers, its not a requirement for FLIPS and out of 30 students only about 5 go out once or twice. The career fire service lobbied to get this program and have it funded, maybe FASNY could loby for something similar.

I suspect that since they are also cutting other dept budgets, this is not about the PD or Crime, its about cash. Every government in NYS is looking at reduced revenues. How would you suggest they pay for the services? Just wait, cuts are coming to all levels of government, its not about needs, its about what we can afford. Also if (I say if because i dont know that it is) crime is on the rise and they have not had the cuts yet, why haven't GPD been effective in preventin it (and I'm not saying they are not effective, just asking since you brought it up).

They never will, it could ecome a states rights issue. The feds can only do it if it deals with interstate, not instate. Besides I don't want the feds wasting time on this.....solve the big problems.

Yes because FASNY has been fighting to keep it this way for decades. Yes in many communities. When I was a volunteer (FF & Medic) the town PD would allow a little more discretion to green, because only 2 or 3 were coming (they would wave us thru red lights, etc.) but with 20 blue lights coming, what difference does it make if it takes an extra 60 seconds for 3 to show up? Blue is even less visable in the spectum, it just is more obvious when all you see is red tail/brake lights. FASNY just wants the historic identity of the VFD. They pull over because a driving in europe is truly a privalidge. In Germany some penalties include perminant loss of your licence, they also will send a large bill to the registered owner, just based on the dash cam, you dont need to confront the driver, just get a pic.

sorry, thats the version I found on the NYS Legislative - State Laws site. I do remeber reading the exemption for rear facing blue for law enforcement only. Who enforces it? CPD It will also be enforced if an agency is sued after an accident. "please read the underlined portion of the law to the court and then tell the court why you had that illegal blue light on your vehicle"

NYS V&T § 375. Equipment. 4. Blue light. a. One blue light may be affixed to any motor vehicle owned by a volunteer member of a fire department or on a motor vehicle owned by a member of such person's family residing in the same household or by a business enterprise in which such person has a proprietary interest or by which he or she is employed, provided such volunteer firefighter has been authorized in writing to so affix a blue light by the chief of the fire department or company of which he or she is a member, which authorization shall be subject to revocation at any time by the chief who issued the same or his or her successor in office. Such blue light may be displayed exclusively by such volunteer firefighter on such a vehicle only when engaged in an emergency operation. The use of blue and red light combinations shall be prohibited on all fire vehicles. The use of blue lights on fire vehicles shall be prohibited and the use of blue lights on vehicles shall be restricted for use only by a volunteer firefighter except as otherwise provided for in subparagraph b of this paragraph. Look like the Law is pretty clear on this one. If it was any other law, people here would be complaining about selective enforcement of the law.

The Fire Act Grant Good question, I don't know why, but it was reported to us by both our Senate & House reps and was documented in at least 2 editorials in Fire Engineering magazine. It was not just the IAFC, every fire service lobbying group in washington was against these grants, until they got a cut of the money for their organizations.

Great, lets get $250,000 in Salery and OT for Cops. While I agree in consolidation, County government can't stay out of the news for OT, cell phones, travel, cars, security details...etc.....

The only members of the public that I have ever experienced that have a problem with the IAFF are posting here. The general public has no idea what services they have, what they pay for or even whose district do they live in. My union supports Burn Care, A childrens hospital, and the MDA, we also run parties for holidays for disabled children. Why does the union need to foster a relationship with the volunteer sector, isnt that the roll of the dept.? Why would my taxpayers care if our union gets along with the volunteers, we rarely get assistance from them, and the public does not even know which depts around us have volunteers, infact many residence in those communities have no idea they have volunteers. Most (I dont know about all) do not fight for OT, they fight for proper manning. Its pretty sad that the unions have to "fight" to maintain minimum manning, shouldn't the mayor or manager be providing that without a fight. Interesting in that under collective barganing the union CAN NOT negotiate manning if managment does not want to go there. All the public even knows about OT is when the News reports on a few employees who make tons and they never look at why or if its actually saving money. Since the union membership votes them in, thats who they represent, if they did not, they would be voted out. If your Senator voted for every bill that helpped another state because it was good for your states image, but never represented your intrests would you re-elect them? The only one I see who is anti-labor lives in communities without labor. Or are in the minority and as long as the majority is happy your point is moot.

Striking or even the threat is not an option since everyone knows that the municipality could get a court injunction within 24 hours, which would fine the union enough to bankrupt it within days and will charge the members who went out 2x what it costs the dept to fill in for them. Can you even show one case of this working in NYS or does it just hurt the union if they even tried it? How many unions "do it"? I dont believe any are stupid enought to consider it. The only threat that the union can make is to get the mayor thrown out at the next election (if they have the political clout, which in most cases they do not). In this case the volunteers did threaten the mayor with this........she's still there and they are not. You can sue, if the law is on your side. In this case the law was on the mayors side. Since municipalities almost always have the right to determine how they want to manage municipal services.

The VCOS is the largest voting block in the IAFC, they do not represent career chiefs, I wonder if they commented on this or was it just pushed thru? Also isn't the IAFC one of the "anointed seven" (Tom Brennan, Fire Enginering Editor) that activly lobbied against Fire Act Grants? Isnt that grant program something that most chiefs would want? Isn't this and other grants in the best interest of the fire service? Whats the real politics behind what IAFC does?

Yes city A is subsidizing village B, but in this case does the City get mutual aid in return (yes, not to the same level). Since Village B has not called City A for help in decades, why the change now? Yes, career depts have members leave for "greener" pastures, but they are either replaced or there shifts covered by OT. The difference here, is dedicated volunteers quite (as a group) and left the dept "short". I use quotes because they claimed they were doing it in the best interest of the protection of the community. Unlike a career dept. they were not replaced. When the group threatens to quite on numerious occasions over numerious different issues with multiple mayors over the course of many years if they don't get there way what would you call it? 1) Tempertantrum 2) Extorsion 3) fill in: ___________ These members told the community via letters to the newspapers that they would quit if they did not get there way. Then after they quit they unsuccessfully sued the village and the mayor not once but twice. A wise chief told me that this concept is called: "addition by subtraction"

Is that village unwilling to pay? or do they pay for partial coverage and relied on volunteers (a combo dept) who had a tempertantrum and quit? Yes, career members work side jobs and do get hurt doing them, how can we solve this? I know a local police dept that pays more than almost any PD in the U.S., they do not allow its employees to work side jobs (because they want them 100% focused and well rested). So if the employeer wants to stop this practice they can do it by paying a salery that allows members to live in the community without working a side job. The other option is to pay OT to cover contractual time off. THis would save the taxpayers $$ (even if the Journal news does not get it) and limit members from working side jobs. This is commonly done in smaller depts. and the numbers actually work. The being tired is less of an issue since most of the work you mentioned is daytime work, and they have till 8am to be back to work, but going on a few minor fire calls in the middle of the night before coming to work is more likely to be an issue. Regardless of what the member is doing off duty, they are likely to be injured, but contracting generally does not run the cardiac and ca risks of firefighting.

So then why would melting it be better than dumping it? If we pick it up and drop it in the harbor, we did not use salt or the fuel to melt it, and it would end up in the harbor anyway?