Bnechis

Why have Chiefs if they need to go to the commissioners for this? Commissioners are supose to make policy not run the operation. If they set a policy that says all members must meet standards (what ever standard they state) then it is the Chief and line officers job to make that happen. If the commissioners do not have a problem with the concept of "we are just volunteers" then you have a bigger problem. The biggest problem is to many commissioners have forgotten that they represent the interests & needs of the community 1st and not the interests & needs of the FF's. Since the majority that vote for them are members, they like most politicians work for those that vote for them. The chiefs should have the authority to suspend or terminate members who do not meet the standards of the dept. Often quantity over quality is the motto.

I have it on good authority that lepore ran him over and pugsley is making him into a stew

I agree as to the lack of effectiveness. The reason safer funds can be used is not because someone thinks its effective it is because the NVFC wanted a "piece of the action" for volunteers or they would not politically support the initial passage of SAFER. That was well documented by Chief Brennon in Fire Engineering.

Excellent article on how it should be and it is in many cases, but read the next thread on Medivac useage to cover volunteer agencies that are picking which calls they want to cover and we are seeing more and more of that. SOme interesting points in the article: 1) "Since Ben Franklin kicked it off some 220+ years ago, volunteering for the Fire Service has been synonymous with words like heroic, unselfish and proud." It still amazes me how people use history, I've seen BF mentioned many times for how community minded he was with starting the Volunteer Fire Service. The truth is he started it the same day he started the 1st fire insurance company in America, and his VFD would only protect those that he insured. I also have a big problem with the word "unselfish" when you look at how much money many depts are spending on recruting & retention. 2) "And, until the bureaucrats are taken out and shot, we must acknowledge the need for accurate record keeping, for sharing information and for compliance with even the unrealistic regulations. We must keep providing them with what they feed on, in the hope that we are contributing to the greater effort and to the bigger picture." In other words, the author does not want anyone to know what level of service they are actually providing, i.e. I do not want to have records on how many members show up, how many are trained, or what we are spending tax money on. This line completely undermindes everything else he wrote. 3) "Volunteer" must never be used as an excuse for not fulfilling that public trust. Agreed, how many agencies can you think of that fall into this trap? I know of a few.

1) The law does not require RLS response to anything. 2) The CDL requirement is to drive the rig. And has the exemption past law yet? I do not believe so. 3) The fire will go out if you respond RLS, respond nonemergency or never get out the door.

I was not refering to your dept. (I don't even know which dept. you are from). But you can hear it all the time around the county. Also you may want to reword your statement: "Always" and "for the most part" dont work in the same sentence.

I agree that regional (maybe countywide, or larger) is what is needed. When you say the elected officials know it but wont tackle it is not quite acurate. The City's and some Towns are providing quality service and the officials do not see a need to change. The County Elected officials have no responsability to provide it (EMS is not mandated & the locals are providing it, or atleast claiming they are) and they will never stick their political necks out. The Town officials are the ones who need to put their foot down and consolidate the multiple agencies within each town and then figure out a method to staff them. This will not happen because of the politics and the towns have no $$$. The best chance of this happening is for the agencies themselves to work together and if that is not enough go to the town as a group and tell the truth; "WE CAN NO LONGER COVER AND WE NEED HELP" until this happens nothing is going to change. I think it would also help if FD, PD and ALSFR agencies documented and reported when the amulances do not get out. The problem is who does it get reported to, assuming it can be reported without creating other issues. Since more than 60% (or more) of the residence are covered by paid systems or believe they are paying for service most residence assume they are covered. When you drive past the VAC or the fire station and see lots of expensive vehicles, "I must be covered, right?" I know what it is costing many of the VAC's to maintain a single perdiem medic slot, and I question the wisdom of the level of spending for perdiem staff to be paid peanuts and sleep instead of consolidation and full time employees (see thread on EMS pay). While the community can "afford it" should they pay for it like this? Unless they have really priced it out, the agencies that claim they can not afford it are just using $$$ as an excuse not to produce. It sucks. As a flycar medic I had to transport an infant with mom bagging the tubed patient (she was an RN) as she sat in the front seat with her son on her lap & I drove the flycar to the ER. The volunteer BLS could not get a crew & 2 mutual aid calls did no better. I laid it out to mom and she agreed it was best. Point is in many communities it has never been a system. I dont see it changing very quick, unless NYS DOH steps in and says: "if you can't get out 24/7 you lose your CON" then the community will have no ambulance and the town/village will be forced into something.

So you need paid EMS if volunteer EMS can't get a proper crew on the road, doesn't that also mean that the communities that can't get a proper fire crew on the road should also go paid? I know a lot of agencies that would fight this, even if it is what is happening all over.

There are many reasons but the biggest is in the NY Metro Area its not a municipal service (FD, PD or 3rd). Look at systems in FL., AZ., MD., etc. mostly fire based municipal. What's different about them? To start with employees stay for 20+ years. Sr. medics are often fire officers who now supervise newer medics and make a living wage. In NYS the average medic is in it for less than 7 years. What are the economics of EMS? EMT is a great 1st job. Your 18 years old with a HS Diploma and 4 weeks (160 hrs) of training and make $20K - $35K per year, while living at home with mom & dad. You get to buy your 1st brand new car and have some fun. You cant raise a family or buy a home on it. but your having fun. And if mom & dad want you to go to college you can go to community college, get your medic, a raise and keep them happy. Plus the job is 24/7 so you can work & go to school. Some additional problems: if you leave for any reason, there is another 18-21 y/o ready to jump into your slot, so the companies do not need to pay a lot for retention. Unions: I've worked both union & nonunion EMS, they can help, they can hurt I've seen both. My best paid EMS job was non union. VAC's: As stated before why pay when they will do it for free has a little to do with it, but how many VAC's have perdiem medics & EMT's working multiple agencies to make it? Make it civil service, merge them into a big enough pool and stop accepting nickles and dimes. licensed: Doctors, Nurses and Barbers are licensed, the difference is they have a lot more training, not the license. Did the pay change in CT when they went licensed? National Standards: There are basic national standards, but the same can be said for FD, PD, RN's and many others, this has no real bearing in the economics of the problem, low bid services. How many communities even know what type of service they have? How many are "demanding" the best? Municipal Officials: We proposed a municipal service in NR. With one of the cornerstones being the ability to attract & hire the "cream of the crop" by limiting the total number of medics and offering better pay & benefits. The City administration was not interested in improving quality and asked will our service have the same NYS Certified sticker as the commercial service. When we said yes, the answer was "thats good enough". Until there is regionalization of EMS, I think it is highly unlikely to ever make major improvements.

Don't know what they will do, but the county wanted to no longer have the municipal test and only do the CPAT. They reversed position when they found out that the county & state were included in the original vulcan case and they must provide for it or they can be in-contempt of the federal courts.

Since my tax dollars already pay for this level of service, i would like to thank you for suggesting that the highest taxed county in the U.S. should charge more in taxes to cover communities that do not support this level of service. Maybe those living in Tx. should pay for No. Westchester. I hear the taxes are low there.

Route planning (as found on commercial systems) is questionable for emergency services. When we looked at it we found it usually looks for major routes and not the fastest route. Our commercial ambulance service uses it and when dispatched out of the same house with a GIS based Engine they go different directions to the call and when the EMS crew has relied on it, the engine has arrived well ahead. Think about how many incidents of "driving on the Railroad" or Low bridges? When we got the OnScene Xplorer program many of our drivers questioned why, because "they knew where they were going". What we found is they knew most streets and most areas. What was needed was two things; 1) details such as street numbers (do I turn right or left, or how far till we get to the house particularly ones without #'s on them). 2) Locations when relocating on Mutual Aid. Onscene can show, your location, the call location or both. When in both it zooms out to just show major roads and as you get closer gives more detail. The best systems are GIS based (that can be improved and corrected) I believe there are better systems than the one we are using but they are CAD controlled. If you do not control your own CAD then this is the best technology available.

New Rochelle uses OnScene Explorer http://www.onscenexplorer.com/ on Panasonic Tough Books. The mapping is based on GIS maps so its more acurate than commercial GPS units. It includes all streets, numbers, hydrants, driveways, parking lots and CIDS (special hazards). we can overlay hazmat evacuation zones and get medivac LZ coordinates. The next phase (Next 90 days) will allow HQ to make map updates, mark hydrants in/out of service and put up notes (like road closures). By late summer we are hoping to be able to complete the most technical phase, which will allow the dispatch CAD to put info in automatically (location) plus everyone will see where everyone is (which can be used by the CAD to send the closest unit).

For career and Volunteers SAFER is administered differently. For career depts. we have to outline how many additional personnel we will hire, then every 3 months we have to report how many additional personnel are actually on-duty /responding to calls. If we fail to maintain the original number we may have to pay all the money back, including the money that was already spent to hire personnel. For VFD's they set a goal and need a plan, and get to spend the money. If the number of volunteers does not go up or even if it goes down, is there any penalty? I cant find one in the guidance. So career has to prove they can perform and volunteers have to try to perform. This is not a fair way to spend tax money. This is politics.

For those that can not deside which is worst the Wood Truss or the Wood I Beam take a look at this: http://www.gp.com/build/product.aspx?pid=6383 Find your ductwork's happy place. Run it in conditioned space. The XJ 85® I-joist from Georgia-Pacific is an innovative engineering achievement, combining radical hole shaping and placement with the stiffness and quality you expect from Georgia-Pacific Wood Products. The strategically located pre-cut openings allow ductwork to be run in conditioned spaces, out of extreme attic temperatures. This helps lower heating and cooling loads, and helps increase energy efficiency. Plus, the lightweight construction and wider on-center spacing of the XJ 85 joists contribute to lower installed cost. Strategically placed openings accommodate plumbing, wiring and duct work. * Installing ductwork through the XJ 85 joist in conditioned spaces can help lower heating and cooling loads and improve energy efficiency. * XJ 85 I-joists are available in 16" depth and standard lengths from 6'- 26' - trimmable on-site to fit perfectly. * Flexible accommodation for plumbing, wiring, and HVAC saves time on planning and cutting holes in the joist. * Openings are closer to the end of the beam, closer together, and wider than ever, providing increased architectural and construction versatility. * Rounded corners of the openings contribute to smooth, fast installation. * FASTBeam® and FASTPlan® software assists in providing structural analysis and planning for floor designs. * Customers can take pride in reduced timber consumption, usage and the ecologically-friendly nature of engineered wood.

Thanks for your effort & posting this. Maybe those that have direct input to the code councils (NYS & ICC). Since the code does not require any fire-resistance-rated assemblies their recommendation could be the basis for mandating it. While the assemblies in tests vs. real world are not the same it would be a big help. Any active code people can this be moved forward?

Seth due to Federal ADA regulations, the police dept. can not discriminate against people with dislexia, even if they are assigned to the sign shop. or could it be an attempt from managment to remind the officer in the car who they are

Even if not "treated" by the staff, the hospital still incures some cost for the triage nurse, medical records, etc. While each visit might only cost a small amount thousands of visits by thousands of people add up. This is one of the reason that hospitals are in financial crisis and the medicaid/medicare costs are out of control.

There are still millions out there, just not on new vehicles. The olderones are more likely to be burning than a new car anyway.

If your stretching into a warehouse, consider using a 2" or 2 1/2" line with a stright bore nozzle. You need the GPM & the reach. Consider that if they use inrack storage (like home depot or Costco) the isles maybe collapse zones, and you need to hit palitized loads (that are wrapped in plastic). also consider that the sprinklers will only work on upper fires unless inrack sprinklers are installed.

What would you suggest? There are many places that have no ability to be evacuated. Most nursing homes, what about homes with invalides? The state does not mandate sprinklers in group homes, but because the lack of ability to evacuate the state mandated a sprinkler system in this case. It is tragic, but what alternative do you suggest?

I don't see this one as a paid/vol debate, I think your overstating this has turned into a debate.

Every extrication course I every took tought to never drag the vehicle with the patient still in it, unless there was no other way to get them out. All that movement could cause additional complications, thats why we stabilize the vehicle before we even gain access. I was not at this call, so I'm not trying to 2nd guess, but before telling some of the newbies that this is a good way to go lets consider it a last option only.

The math here is a little off. If MV has more population and fewer officers how can they have more officers per 1,000?

Mfire, you got half of my post right on track. We tested multiple systems. 1 worked very well when the member jumped. But when we did field tests, a member on a call exited the rig, got his can, walked 50 feet from the rig toward the incident then stopped. He was hooked to the rig and could not proceed. We dropped that system. I also wrote: "Interesting that everyone takes about the law and what they bought or have not bought. How many depts have actually done a written risk assessment 1st like the law requires?" Has anybody done this? The reason this is part of the law was not to make you figure out which system, but do you need a system? DOL/PESH made it very clear that not every dept. or every ff needs a bailout "system". If the only buildings in your district are 2 story single family and you can ladder 4 sides then your bailout "system" is 4 ladders. If you have 10 story office or multiple dwellings a 50' bailout "system" does not meet the standard, but a roof rope system that is actually brought to the roof does. Part of the risk assessment is to determine what are the risks to firefighters. The #1 risk is not being trapped without a bailout or jumping or falling. The #1 risk is cardiac stress. Most depts can identify members who have had cardiac problems, and many can even id LODD because of it. How many depts (other than FDNY) can document a member has jumped or died at a window (because of no bailout system)? What about back 7 knee injuries? How many have been career ending? We can document many of both injuries and LODD from cardiac, but not one case of a problem because of a lack of a bailout system. Most FF's have a great concern for being trapped, but thats not what is killing our members. Lets consider reducing our LODD & injuries without the histerics that has gone allong with this law. This does not mean we should not give something to our members. But before racing out to buy something because FDNY has it....THINK. If you have made a purchase, trained the members, issued the gear you are still not in compliance with the law because you missed step #1. Has anyone noticed that NYS is the only state that requires this? What do other states and city's do? Is this a real problem for the fire service or is this a problem only in NY? NYC has no law requiring it. Since NYC had purchased a system the legislature felt it was not needed to mandate them to do it. The problem is, the reason that members had to jump (in the incident that started all of this) is FDNY had retired all of its personnel ropes when they hit the 10 year life expectancy. So in 10 years when the current gear is to be retired they do not have to replace it, but the rest of us do. There is no court decision. Association Sues State Over Rope Reg http://www.nysfirechiefs.com/LatestNewsSto...?nSI=1668148794 November 26, 2008 On November 26, 2008 in Albany County, the New York State Association of Fire Chiefs, the Verdoy Fire District, the Association of Fire Districts State of New York, and FASNY filed a petition in Albany County Supreme Court against the New York State Department of Labor in connection with the Life Safety Rope Regulation. Specifically, the group is requesting an Article 78 Proceeding reviewing the creation of the regulation and enjoining its enforcement. Among other things, an Article 78 Procedure is used to ensure that a state agency properly follows administrative rules created under New York State’s Administrative and Procedure Act Law (SAPA). The concerned parties claim that the regulation should be revoked and set aside for several reasons that are both legal and technical in nature. It should be pointed out that the Department of Labor issued a memo opposing the legislation that was eventually signed into law and necessitated the regulation. The groups also state that the law is flawed, thereby making appropriate regulation virtually impossible. Over the next several weeks more information will be forthcoming. In the interim each fire department must make every effort to come into compliance with the new regulation.Our first goal is to obtain an injunction to nullify the November 1, 2008 compliance date for the regulation until the Department of Labor can appropriately explain how fire departments can implement the new regulations while we await the Article 78 hearing. Note: no injucntion was issued by the court. This was my 1,000 post........I think its a good one