Bnechis

Seth your post just proved exactly what the original poster had stated. Spano took credit for DES actions on 9/11. Maybe there would be less issues if he only took credit for the action of county dispatchers. I agree that nobody is blaming the dispatchers. Thanks Capt.

Length Of Service Award Program Its basicly a pension for volunteers, based on meeting a minimum % of calls, meeting & training over X number of years. The standards are set by the dept. The idea is this would add in recruitment & retention and thats how it was sold to most communities (who had to hold referendum votes on it).

The academies are FF2. FF1 is a great starting point, but it is not enough to make one a firefighter.

Yes its covered a couple of different areas, but look at the title: "Would you still volunteer"? that could cover a number of different areas, as we have seen. It is too bad that you can not see the positive info: 1) We have learned that the dedicated volunteers do not need blue lights and they feel they may do more harm then good. 2) We have learned that the dedicated volunteers do not need LOSAP and they feel they may do more harm then good. 3) We have learned that some members are very honest about their departments and are willing to discuse it. I am still waiting to hear if anyone can show any positive effect LOSAP have had on VFD's? Yes, there are a lot of reasons why people volunteer, why they stay and why they go. I also think the reasons are very different for those under 21 as for those in other age groups. In the past I have noticed that the under 21 group are the ones who put $4,000 lightbars on $2,000 cars (can you still get cars for that price?). The older group has less concern with lights. A lot of career firefighters, including myself where volunteers. Some still are, others have moved on. We do understand and in my case I left over a year before getting called to my career dept. I left because of the level of BS (lights, training, attendance, drinking in the firehouse during calls, etc.) funny how many of those issues are still being debated 25 years later. As a note I think my former VFD has resolved many of those issues, but only in the last 10 years.

"A firefighters fraternal group called The Vulcan Society has proposed that the department should be forced to make six of every 10 new hires either black or Hispanic." Are 60% of the applicants (those who sign up for the test, not those that complete the process) black or hispanic? If there are less than 60% even if everyone ignors the latest Supreme Court direction how can this group propose this with a stright face, if they can not get enough blacks or hispanics to actually sign up for the test. Last numbers I remember, FDNY was having difficulty in getting 20-30% turnout.

Thanks Gerry

Did they "purchase" them or did FDNY provide them, with the understanding that they would be issued to the depts/companies that they agreed would be responding M/A into the city? Since the FDNY/OFPC plan is to have the career depts. respond and we border them and can be on station in just a few minutes then why should we have to wait for DES to dig them out, and drive them around to 11 different fire departments before we can respond? And what will the delay be if it is during off hours, the extra wait for someone to go to DES to dig them out? Yep we are as ready as we were 9 years ago. Good thing the career chiefs got additional equipment this year from FDNY.

I would not have taken the 50% pay cut from what I was making before. I understood that the upfront pay was less, but the pension made up for it. Now since you brought it up...... Would you stop volunteering if your department didnt have a LOSAP? Think carefully on this one because it is a very slippery slope. I have asked a number of times (both here and to companies that run LOSAP's) what is the average number of recruits brougt in because of LOSAP. I have never seen an answer. In looking at most VFD's with LOSAP, the number of FF's has not improved since they got the LOSAP so I believe that as a recruitment tool its a failure, at least until someone can prove it actually works. Now as a retention tool, just like blue lights I think most volunteers who are planning to stay will stay because they want to, not because they get a blue light or LOSAP. But how was it soid to the taxpayers? In many communities it was sold as a recruiting & retention program (Often with the sales pitch that its a lot cheaper than having to hire career ff's), if it has not recruited members, does it retain members? Or is it just a reward for volunteering? If it is a reward, then it should have been sold as such. From what I have heard from the most dedicated volunteers is LOSAP is the worst thing they could have ever done in there depts. If your dept has LOSAP: 1) has it improved the numbers? 2) increased the number of people that show up to the fire house, but really do not participate? 3) made no difference (the numbers of members is the same or less)?

I think this a waste of time, a better question would have been if they were outlawed do you see it as a problem for recruiting or retention within your department?

Before any incorrect technical data is put out, I'm going to request that JAD622 answer this, as I know he has all the details documented and is to be published by the Career Chiefs in the next couple of weeks. Yes to both LOL no problem

A couple of depts that went to the Bronx that day did not. Good question if they do today. Two additional issues: 1) Do they have the FDNY addapters to work with depts in Westchester that use FDNY threads? 40% of the population in Westchester have FDNY threads. 2) Do they have the special high security hydrant wrenches that are needed to open hydrants in NYC?

GREAT QUESTION! NFPA standards are considered consencus standards. That means they must be "accepted" by some level of government to become law. The level of government can be Federal, State, or Local and can be "accepted" by an of the 3 branches: executive, legislative or judicial. Many NFPA standards for building construction have been accepted or mandated by NYS Codes Div. (state executive) making them law. Turnout gear NFPA standards are set by FED OSHA (& NYS PESH) (both executive, fed & state) Bailout rope NFPA standards were mandated by NYS Legislative and enforced by NYS executive. The NYS courts have "accepted" most if not all consencus standards, unless a law supercedes it. Now to the heart of your question: NFPA 1403 has been accepted by NYS OFPC (executive) and turned into state law. Allowing it to be used in the courts. NFPA 1710 has not been accepted by any state as a standard. It is slowly starting to crop up in civil litigation. Once it hits the NY courts during civil liability it most likely will be accepted by the courts, unless the defendant (the FD or municipality) can prove they were following a comperable consencus standard (there are none). NYS law does not allow career firefighters to sue their employeers for injury or death and that is extended to cover thier families. Who is the most likely plantif? A civilian who has a fire loss, an insurance company that wants to be covered for its loss, or a firefighter from another community who is hurt going mutual aid into an under staffed dept? I dont know, but at some point I suspect some smart lawyer will figure out its worth some bucks, until then municipalities will continue the gamble that they are saving $$$.

Agreed and that plan is or should be the mutual aid plan. Agreed, but 1st we need to define an alarm. How many engines, trucks, and support units and how many firefighters (note: I did not say interior, because everyone else is just a helper) and officers make up that 1st alarm? By almost any standard, its a minimum of 2 engines and 1 truck (or squad, if laddering is not an issue based on construction, these members are assigned truck functions)and a minimum of 16 firefighters and officers. Many depts that send 3,4 or more units on a 1st alarm consider a 2nd alarm another 1 or 2. This is wrong. If you do not have enough rigs to double the 1st alarm, then you can not send a 2nd alarm without mutual aid. We have forgotten how fire alarms were historically established: Before radios and phones fire telegraph street boxes was the way we got called. Every box had a number, when someone activated the box the number was transmitted (to horns on the fire station, bells in the fire station, and to tapes). The number was sounded (same as some VFD's that still have horns) and based on the box number, you would look on the wall (or in a little book) to determine what rigs went and where to box was located. Once on scene if the chief decided he needed more help he would send a ff to reset the 1st box or run down the road to the next box to strick the "2nd Alarm". When this number came across and you looked up on the wall it told you who went, if the 1st due was alread out. If the 1st alarm was 2 steamers, 2 hose wagons and a city service truck, then thats what was also sent on the 2nd, because you did not know till you got onscene if you were going to help or you were going to another incident just down the road from the 1st. We need to follow our history on this one, instead of trying to make do with less and less. Of the 58 departments in Westchester, which ones send that many interior ff's + supervisor per rig to calls in there own district 24/7/365? I think its a little unrealistict to have dept's send more help on M/A then it sends to its own calls.

According to the comptrolers office (pension div.) the $100 is credited in the year it was earned not the year it was paid. That means if it is earned in 2010 and you retire in 2015 you get a $100 check at retirement that does not count towards the final year average. Since the city agreed that the raise is still inplace and we are just defering the payment, the % will go into the base that will be included in final average. Anyone retiring in the next 2 years the cast will be creditied towards final.

New Rochelle 7,543 (A slow year...down 750-1,000 runs)

While I am sure the fire patrol saved much more property than it cost to run them, I suspect the reason they were cut is the insurance companies that were paying for them might not have been the ones who saved the money. It is also highly possible that some pencil pusher in the insurance industry saw it as a way to save money, without knowing what the real costs are. A number of years ago I was working with an industrial fire department, that a senior manager figuered he could eliminate and save $1.4m/year, so they were eliminated. Within 3 days their insurance underwriter raised their rates by almost $3m/yr. All FD employees were rehired.

That is correct. FDNY is the only department in the country that ISO rates based on actual fire damage. Everyone else is rated on their potential to minimize damage. NYC's fire damage rate is very consistant, even if you look at 2001 there is almost no difference in the annual property loss in $$$$. THis is because of the total number of fires citywide. Also FDNY is very agressive at firefighting, but that often means more water damage and other damage to the structure, particularlry when there is minimal salvage work being performed. This is howFDNY prevents full blocks from going, but the insurance industry looks at the total dollar loss not just fire loss.

Thanks to the strong lobbying efforts of both the IAFF and the volunteer fire service (with a special notice of FASNY as the lead in this issue) NFPA has 2 different standards that address this: NFPA 1710 for career depts requires minimum response times which limits the distance by 4 minutes drive time for the 1st due engine and 8 minutes for the rest of the 1st alarm assignment. NFPA 1720 for VFD's lets the locals determine what they need. ISO considers any property beyond 5 miles drive istance to be unprotected. Their standard calls for engines companies within 1.5 miles of all properties and ladders within 2.5 miles. Beyond the 1.5 & 2.5 they prorate the department based on % beyond those distances. Agreed, this is one of the questions the the Comptroller was concerned with, what happens if the owner (this so called illegaly set up not for profit) no longer wants to rent it to the FD after 10 years? What happens if the principals are sued over this by an angry tax payer? The report also mentions that the fire commisioners failed to meet other legal requirments, including mandatory training and purchasing in general.

Can we get sponsors for firefighters? Instead of the FF's name on the turnouts: exxon, Chase or even Avalon (oh wait, they dont pay for fire protection in NR). Thats not a bad little logo for the FD to live with to get $200,000 for.

A little light reading for anyone who thinks layoffs/ staffing reductions are acceotable in the Fire Service. What is your fire department's rating in the study? http://www.boston.com/news/specials/fires/

Chris, laws dont apply to cops and firefighters, we are above the law because in our minds we are so important that the laws are only for others (I dont know who those others would be with emergency lights). Since Fire Chiefs have to licence blue lights, they are legaly responsable when members use blue lights outside of the law and they take no action. Police chiefs are responsible when police cars have illegal lights intalled on them (previously blue, now forward blue). If a chief is willing to ignore these laws, what other laws, particularly those that deal with the safety of the public and emergency personnel are they willing to ignor?

How does the caller know that in your community the FD does not provide EMS? Sounds like your community has a bigger issue with "check and advise" this is not the falt of 911 but a poor policy on the part of the PD or the municipality. If Westchester had centralized dispatch, the 911 call would go to a single point that would dispatch the proper agency(s) without the old check and advise. When I worked in both vol & combo comunities the check and advise was a municipal policy because the PD did not want to "bother the volunteers". I don't know if that is still the issue, but I was told that by a number of cops in different towns. Always loved hearing: "request for an ambulance...check and advise" what a shock when the sector car got there and asked for an ambulance. I have a particular problem with check and advise because my aunt died because of the policy (she was in her early 30's).

Actually, in my call the caller called SFD who knew it was not in Scarsdale, they called New Rochelle (but gave the wrong street name, and our dispatcher said it was not ours, so they called Greenburgh, who called 60, who called NRFD with the correct location. We arrived with fire thru the roof, out all the windows on the top floor and 2 cars in the garage (at 530am on a sunday). We stretched a 2 1/2" to the front door , but could only make it in a few feet. We figured the family ws still in the bedrooms, lucky they were on vacation. I think the delay was more than 10 minutes.

Let me get this straight I have a cell phone and I know 911 will get me help, but I happen to know the 7 digit emergency #, I'll call that. 1) I hope I do not get cut off before I give any info, because at a minimum when I call 911 they might get my number and a general location. 2) I hope I actually know which of the 58 fire departments actually is the right one. As a probie I was 2nd due to a well involved house fire in the North End of our city (the post office address was Scarsdale, but the house was in NR)While we were stretching the 2nd line the caller (he was out walking his dog when he spotted the fire)was yelling at us that he called SFD and where the H was the SFD? After the fire he got into a fight with the IC, because according to the caller the NRFD did not know that this was Scarsdale.

The original poster should also be aware that perminant mounting on the exterior of the vehicle can be illigal if you travel into another state that considers them for PD only, unless covered. How many Police Depts are violating this law with forward facing blue lights? How many FD's have violating this law with blue lights on apparatus? These are just questions to ponder, please DO NOT ANSWER, we do not need another round. But if your dept is violating the law, fix it, then lobby NYS to change the law if you think you should be allowed to do this.