Bnechis

Hey Chief, just how long have you been retired? Thats a bullard TIC charger

In ours it the ejection button for the chief.

LOL. 1 was 24 hrs the other was 7am - 12mid or 1am (depending on the year).

Ok 1985ish L/TM VAC 2 MEMS (Rescue) 2 NR 1.8 MV 2 SVAC 2 EVAC 2 HVAC 3 PC/R 3 15.8 ambulances (staffing?) Today L/TM VAC 2 MEMS (Rescue) 2 NR 2.5 MV 1 SVAC 2 EVAC 3 HVAC 3 PC/R 3 plus a couple of fly cars 18.5 ambulances (but can some actually be staffed? I know many of them can not) and the call volume has gone up at least 30% as the poulation increases and ages. Thats an increase of 2.6 ambulances, but can most of those agencys staff the full compliment? I left Yonkers out, becuase with S.S.M. it is unclear without their data to figure out what they actually have operating.

True, but most of those calls require fewer responders than structure fires. While this has been moved to another thread, I would rather have 4 in 4 if I were bleeding in an MVA than 20 in 10. But the case has been made that in many communities they can not field a full team when there is no parade somewhere else. Unfortinatly getting 4-5 is a problem for some and there is no balance. Lots of evidence you just need to look. I do not know about the silence, but many need to get their eyes checked.

Thanks Paul, that was what I ment, but was not clear. I think the cart would be more useful in Westchester than in the subways, Maybe one in Croton, 1 in No WP and 1 in Stamford?

The reason I said we need to use vehicles up the rails, is because much of the water area is rocky, shallow and the boats that would be needed (size wise) can not get anywhere close. Plus a portion of the year its either frozzen or boats are not in the water. Plus transporting by water is much slower.

Lets go back 25 years, both of us were volunteer paramedics at L/TM VAC and it was very common to get 3 or 4 medics to respond for a cardiac arrest. I remember many times we could staff both ambulances with multiple paramedics. Can the same be said today? Having been involved in the mutual aid planning for disaster response since the 1980's I can tell you we have about 5% more ambulances county wide now than then, but we have more that can not get out the door every day. The south end of the county is almost completely paid now. THe north end it is common to wait forever to get a bls unit. What has improved is everyone gets medics now and thats a big improvement, but the addition of a bunch of flycars does not help when we need transport.

The audio tape from this fire (note the tape is compressed so the times are not correct). The most interesting statement is from a Lt. saying that they just lost contact with the victim (women) she was yelling out the back window. They knew where she was! These three give a good overview of the scene. They did a great job blocking the ladder out and one can barly see the house because the shear number of chiefs, buffs and SCBA yard walkers that are filling this scene. Remember all of these firefighters were standing there while the victim died and they knew where she was and that she was alive when they arrived.

Last time they landed a copter for a call in that section they almost met the train.

I am aware, this way you run a few of these electric cars and a dozen of those carts and you make a rescue train.

I thought about this and I can not think of this during a disaster, but I can think of a number of times that failing to get EMS coverage (including MA) did result in a death. One that comes to mind involves 2 medical calls & 1 MVA with only 1 ambulance that covered 2 of the calls, the 3rd call was transported by PD as no EMS MA was "available" they walked the cardiac patient down 3 flights of stairs and walk him into the ER where he coded. I think you remember that night. We blew up 2 ambulances and ended up in a cop car (as a flycar).

Maybe this is the way to handle this: This was the 1st pic in the incident that started this thread. They are railroad hand push carts. This is FDNY's electric cart to pull a number of its hand carts. The hand carts can be used in subways or MTA lines. They are light enough to be carried by 2 members and can be used to move equipment or 3 backboarded patients (being pushed by 1 ff). THe carts are being deployed to engine co's they will be stored on the apparatus floor (1 per assigned engine) and can be transported on the back step with a simple strap. Maybe this is something that MTA can help us get for their tracks in our region. Many of us have problem locations (the Peekskill one is probably the worst).

I was wondering if someone was going to go there. I disagree. Yes I said it. This is post 71....go back to #32, I said we do parades, they are good for the fire service and we all enjoy them, but the key is we need to cover our responsibility to the community. I explained how we do it, it can be done and yes it builds pride. But do we really need trophys for the "news rig, longest ladder or most members marching"? How about a new catagory: Best coverage at home, while you are here!

No, but we watch there "training" tapes to learn how its done

Why does the county & local FD's have to plan for incidents on the highways, the airport, waterways and every other location? It is not the property owners responsibility to determine how we should do our job. It is there responsibility to support our efforts and they do that. Can you please tell that to Trump, Cappelli and Avalon, they all put massive new issues into my city and I would like to know what they give us other than lots of calls and new challenges. The railroad was in New Rochelle long before the FD and we have been there for 149 years. They have done that training many times, while they know the procedures for safely responding to the trains and what can or can not be done in relation to them, I do not believe that they are the "experts" on emergency planning for large disasters, mass casulty incidents or the capabilities of local emergency services, that is not ther job to know. They have been very very helpful in assisting us to plan, but they will not be the ones who have to run the incident, those that are need to do the planning. I agree, but as a career dept. have an even bigger issue with this. My dept. has to pay MTA $50,000/year (as does the PD and our public works...etc. to the tune of $1/4m) as part of the MTA TAX and after paying we get to go on over 300 calls/year to handle their issues. But that is not the falt of the MTA, its the fault of our representatives in Albany who did this, because this would cause no impact. THe impact is we reduced other services by $50,000 to make up the difference. They have stepped up many times. Any time we have asked they did training and have been very willing to go the extra mile to help us. Cutting up trains sounds like lots of fun, so does stabilizing them. In reality they are so well built that you will not be able to do much cutting, except of the tangled mess of seats and racks inside and thats no different than a school bus. Stabilizing is next to impossible with the resources available to almost every single agency and for the most part every major crash has been handled with almost no stabilization, because the trains came to rest where they end up for days. The training that is needed is Incident Managment, which very few agencies are well schooled in (yes we've taken the NIMS classes), but we are not ready to run incidents of this magnitude.

In my original medic class, we were told that the message was Major Disaster Send all Available Ambulances. 6 hours after all patients had been transfered amulances were still showing up from at least as far as Albany. I dont know if that is true or not, but it is the way I always remember to ask for what you need and not all come.

Yes he used the word inferior, but I said; "1) Can you show which post or posts have been claiming that any department (by name, type or community) is inferior?" and KCRD said: "Why should someone be thanked for providing an inferior service (career or vollie)?". Can you please tell us which department, type of dept. or community he was talking about from the info provided? So what is the difference if they are providing shoddy service or inferior service? shoddy [ˈʃɒdɪ] 1. imitating something of better quality 2. of poor quality; trashy 3. made of shoddy material inferior [ɪnˈfɪərɪə] 1. lower in value or quality 2. lower in rank, position, or status; subordinate 3. not of the best; mediocre; commonplace 4. lower in position; situated beneath And that did not answer my question. 1) As an American I do not need to be appointed (thanks to my grand parents and great grand parents for leaving the old world so I would have that right). 2) As a public service using public funds that are paid for with public tax money I do have the right to comment. And yes my tax dollars do find there way into every dept. in Westchester (and beyond). Yes it clearly is the business of the fire leaders and the membership, but it is clear that some are not taking care of business. There are a number of members of VFD's who have posted here as to how they have tried to change this and some have been able to and others have been forced out, because the leaders or members do not want that. It is even more clear that the public has no idea what level of service is being provided. This is particularly true if the public is never told what level of service is being provided. I do have family and friends who live in a number of cummunities and I care greatly over them, thank you. I also have many friends who are both volunteer and career firefighters in these departments and I worry about them and the fact that they are placed in even greater danger than members of my dept. You say this is only about volunteers....I have made these comments about career depts., combo depts and volunteer depts. For me it has never been about volunteer vs. career, it has always been about providing the best service, Thats what I swore I would do when I was sworn in. So you believe that volunteers and career are on opposing sides, opposing sides of what? all I have been hearing is quality of service issues, are you saying that we are on opposing sides of that? It has been made clear by a couple of posters that depts who are willing to take apparatus and firefighters to Lake George without providing coverage for days are on opposing side of quality service> One of the great things about America is you can. One of the things that is great about my department is when we have a problem, we study it and report that problem to the city administration, the mayor and the city council and its often done live, on camera for the community to see and now its available on the internet so our property owners who are out of town can watch. When our firefighters do not feel that those channels are working they have gone to the press and have been out at the supermarkets and railroad station making sure the public knows what the problem is. Now this may not solve the problem, but it can not be said we did not inform the community about what we can and can not do. It has already been posted that in some depts. the parade is the most important thing and yes if it "Came to light" they might but thats only because they were caught. Retones are a common part of many dept. procedures, including mine, but when you hear: any available ______ time after time, and then hear them toning mutual aid to cover the call this is not a retone issue.

1) Can you show which post or posts have been claiming that any department (by name, type or community) is inferior? 2) Cheif Flynn asked about coverage and found out that some depts go to Lake george and later on found that they go for 4 days. Again, does this claim they are providing shoddy service? If they are covering there districts then the only question is do they tell the taxpayers that this is something the dept spends there tax money on? 3) Do you really need to go to every fire to know if a dept is doing a good job? Or can you listen to 60 Control toning them out for the 3rd time for any available driver, or see here that it took 5 departments to respond to a 1 line fire? Or look at there state fire training records (which are available to every MTO) and see that there are depts that are not even meeting the minimum standards that the law requires. Or looking at the ISO ratings that show how many depts are scoring 20% on an open book test (at last count i think it was 32 depts in Westchester that were ISO 9 or Partial 9).

Yes this is a problem, but the solution is easy. When there is a parade and every dept in the area is out of district, coverage is a huge problem, when one dept goes out of service for a dinner, training, a funeral etc. it can easily arainge for coverage from its MA partners. Also, training, particularly Multi unit drills are critical to improving the departments ability to function effecinetly and effectivly at an emergency. Parades may be good for pride, but they do not improve the FD's ability to do its primary mission.

There are advantages and disadvantages as have been pointed out. The engine often requires a much longer wheelbase, which makes it less manuverable, also requires more space in the fire house. It is more expensive. The design often leads to more preconnected lines which aften leads to the 1st engine blocking out the truck. It requires more linkages, which means more maintenance issues (which now can be eliminated with electric valves). Safety vs. Visability has been mentioned. It is safer than standing in the street, but a lot of climbing on Ice covered running boards is a problem. How often does the pump operator actually stand at the pump panel? 1st most depts have very few fires and those they have are often single line and we go home. So do you need to be up there for hours pumping? Consider that the depts. the do the most fire (large cities) almost never buy top mount. Top mounts are praised for visability, but this is not always the case. If the hose bed is very high you can not see back. The new Pierce PUC I climbed up (one trip/fall on that ladder and you are out of the fire service) and all I could see is the pump panel. The salesman said you can see 360 degrees around if you raise the camera on the pole and look at the little screen on the pump panel. The sun glare ment I had to cover the screen with both hands to look at it (at night I bet the flashing light might be an issue). So not all top mounts have good visability. With the puc I might as well been inside a compartment.

Was not a spanking. What you wrote was a very good start and if you had been IC following your comments in Eastchester, it would have gone much better than it would have in many other communities. I vote for spanky also

In other threads, departments are doing dual response just to get enough players on the field to look like they have a full team. If dual response does not completely cover when everyone is in town, how does it work when each department is running even shorter? Good idea, better would be FD guides, who also know water supply and building info. Yes, while some here think this is about vol. FD's, New Rochelle does have parades for Thanksgiving & Memorial Day. The T day parade startes north of the High School and travels all the way down to the south end. We start the parade with E-23, L-13, 2302 & R-4 when the parade gets to garden street, E23 & L13 peel off and E-21, E-22, L-11 & L-12 peel in. All rigs are in there 1st or second due area. And there is never a drop in level of service or an increase in response times. In addition to the liability for failure to meet service demands, i would think you are proving that some of your fleet may not be needed, if you can send it out of town. My father (who has nothing to do with emergency services) asked why does every dept. need a tower ladder (he lives in NO. West.), then after taking some of his grand kids to the Ossining Parade, he told me; "now I know, its to compete for a trophy". But what is the cost to the tax payer to buy these units, when the FD figures its ok to take them out of town (sometimes to a dozen parades). On the same note, I can understand (and love) when a dept has a historical rig that goes to parades, but when you buy the brand new latest & greatest and told the mayor or tax payers that your community cant live without it, how can you take it away from them? It has been argued that mutual aid in general does not provide the level of protection normally. In fact ISO does not recognize or give credit for mutual aid and even automatic aid is only credited at 90% (with multiple drills and sops)because they realize its not as good. Very True. While its a long time ago and liability has changed, I remember a volunteer (who regularly posts here) returning from a parade on the back step of a rig and he almost stepped off to get his hat, they were on 684 at the time. Today that would have resulted in a multi million dollar law suit. Note Its not that he is worth it, just what his wife could get for his body. If people do not know how there own depts function, then we one bshould not bother the chief as he has a lot of work to do....teaching his firefighters how they cover the district when its parade season. If anyone actually believes this, then this is the justification for mandatory in house rostering of crews, since you need to provide service and you never know when an incident will occur, you can schedule the crews to be there when it does happen. They must be very proud of these activities, maybe they should have press releases to let the taxpayers know and then the can be as proud also.

Great Thread, lots of interesting issues. >>Call for everybody........have Control notify every agency that they have a phone number for.<< You will lose control very fast this way. You need to know who is coming and keep everyone else out. Establish strong perimeters and staging. Make sure you have enough law enforcement to do it and they know not to let FD or EMS in that has not been sent from staging. >> Mass EMS mobilization, and hospitals, trauma-center notification. Control is going to be very busy.<< 60 can now do a mass notification with the trunk system and request all recieving facilities update there MCI bed status which we can recieve on rig PC's at scene. >> Call for some air-med transport and establish a triage and landing zone in an open area somewhere nearby; plan for an EMS ferry system for multi-victims to the triage site.<< Generally air medical sucks up more resources than it helps. Concentrate on the basics. Triage is generally not done in an area, but where you find them. Triage may also be an issue if the scene is not safe and EMS is not trained/equipped to operate in the hazard zone (can FD handle this?). Treatment areas need to be set up. Because of the cold, we need to get treatment areas out of the weather, options may include close buildings, large busses (bee line tandams are great for this) (backboarded patients can be placed over the seat backs), or heated tents (as seen in the pics) There are about a dozen of those heated tents in Westchester, most responders may not know that (each squad, each mass decon unit). For ferry system, consider 1) a rescue train (if distance is great, this may be best). 2) Metro north rail capable pick-up trucks. 3) rail rescue platforms (as seen in the pics), FDNY has them. >> You're going to need rail-mounted cranes for stabilization.<< This might work well if you do not have overhead panagraphs, on the New Haven Line, chances are they will not get close. >> Very important to establish NIMS ICS, especially get a staging officer out there to organize all the help coming in, I'd assign a firefighter or LT immediately, no sense in blocking up the area we might need road access to the site. How about a drop off point as close to the scene as possible, where rigs can roll up and stage equipment, then roll out to a parking area? << Once the rigs get into the scene, it will be hard to get them out to a parking area. Stagging is very very critical (look at what happened at Avianca crash). We do not do this well and it must be. Anyone who bypasses it needs to be sent home. If units (like engines)are going to be parked in staging, ambulances need to be in an area they can get out. EMS ICS Managment is a big problem in Westchester, in many places it is very hard to get a crew out,much less crews and supervisors. For this incident we are going to need at least a 1/2 dozen EMS officers who know how to run MCI ops. >> Depending on the time, you might need some heavy lighting systems, plus the generator-lights that we carried, portable 1000 watt lights.<< Plan for it, it may not be dark now, but we will be here for many many hours. There are many training and planning issues in this thread, most have never been addressed. Based on this many communities are going to perform poorly when this happens for real. If you think it can't happen here, I took this pic in Mt. Vernon (and it was not the 1st time this happened at this location.

Thanks Captain