Bnechis

The Bids are being evaluated, an award has not been determined. Why does the price of those rigs have any bearing on this one?

In this case no one appears to be concerned with run numbers, they are concerned with maintaining the current budget level, so they can maintain the current level of service (which is already substandard). So if they add 4 medics, I am assuming they plan to run a 4 platoon system with on duty 24/7. This would means one of the existing FF's would have to be assigned to an ambulance, thus actually reducing the number of available FF's. This does not help fire response, what I beleive they are trying to do is help pay for ff's who will be laid off as the depts buget is reduced. Ok forget the union points. According to the International City/County Managers Association (ICMA) NFD's staffing is atleast 4 below the standard the the city managers believe is the minimum per shift staffing. The Insurance Industry also says this is understaffing. Neither of these organization has anything to do with the unions. In fact ICMA has services to help city managers plan to reduce staffing. It is kind of difficult to to compare a dept. with a daily staffing of 10 to one with a staffing of around 2,500.

Unfortinatly it often is the older rig, but we have found its not an easier life. In our case our front line engines are out of service between 10 and 20%. With 5 frontline engines and 1 spare (#2 died), the spare is inservice about 75% of the time. The biggest problem with keeping rigs (including spares) to long in busy departments is costs. One study (South Metro in CO) determined the best economic model was no more than 8 years in front line & 2 spare. Selling the unit before it hits its 10th year (when the value drops drimatically). The maintenance costs after that start to approach the bond payments for its replacement and you have a less reliable unit.

"And I waked in and sat down and they gave me a piece of paper, said, "Kid, see the phsychiatrist, room604." "And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, Iwanna, I wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood andgore and guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill,Kill,KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL,KILL," and he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping upand down yelling, "KILL, KILL." And the sargent came over, pinned a medalon me, sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."

There are a host of issues here. 1) In a large and busy dept. it is not uncommon for a rig (even a newer one) to be out of service 15-20% of the time. In a city the size of Yonkers, that would mean the squad would have to leave there quarters on the West side, drive across town to get the spare, then unload the primare rig and load the spare, then take the rig to the shop. All of this gets repeated when its done. This can take the company out of service for an hour or more. If the shop has a 2 hour job it means the crew may be out of service almost as long just switching rigs. 2) Our newest "standard" engines have been given additional equipment that we never use to carry (TIC's, gas detectors, FAST, Water rescue, more foam & foam equipment, more EMS equipment, etc.) It is very difficult to switch over to a spare and fit all the new equipment, since they have 1/2 the storage space. Much of the additional equipment gets left on the floor. Now add to that the squad equipment, YFD Squad 11 carries more rescue equipment than many of the large "heavy rescue" box units in Westchester. In Sq2 (NRFD E22) we carry all the equipment of a standard engine plus, Level A & B suits, Hazmat boots, reference materials, multiple gas detectors, radiation detectors, drager tubes, WMD agent detectors, Antidote Kits, 4 additional Hazmat SCBA's with 1 hour packs and 8 additional 1 hour bottles, PAPR's, Hazmat Skeds, 4 Hazmat tool kits, Extra foam and extra absorbant (plus a bunch of other stuff) if the rig goes out of service you need another rig with enough compartments to hold it all. 3) Most larger depts. have 2 different terms: Spare and Reserve. A spare is uniquipped and you switch over when a primary rig is out of service (particularly for long periods). Sometimes they do not even have hose, then that gets switched also. A reserve unit fills in as a spare, but also can be staffed with call back members to beef up the departmet during storms or other major emergencies. Most city's have fewer companies than they should and get away with that by beefing things up as needed. This is based on the city's wanting to base staffing on slow times and not busy times. 4) lastly in any larger department there is a greater chance the rig will be involved in an MVA than in a small village. I suspect Sq 11 response to 3 or 4 times the number of calls as your whole dept. plus its on the street everyday doing training and inspections. Plus driving in Yonkers can get very rough. There is a very good chance that it will get hit or hit something and go out of service for many months. In a busy dept you can not have critical equipment out of service for days or even hours, without a spare they could be out for months. And if the rig was ever distroyed it could take up to 2 years to get it replaced. 5) the finances in a big fleet will equill out as this spare will be used a little lighter than the other spares, it will require less maintenance, they may also be able to keep the front line rig without replacement for an extra year or two, because they have a good spare, and if its included as an "extra" spare, then the rest of the spares will also last a little longer.

There are many studies; The American Insurance Association did the same study in 1975 Seattle FD in 1981 The International City Managers Association in 1967 The IAFF in 1991 Dallas FD in 1984 (with O'Hagan) IAFC in 1992 1977 Dallas with NFPA NIOSH 1991 Nevada Occupational Safety and Health Review Board, 1990 Office of the Fire Marshal of Ontario,(Canada) 1993 Austin FD (Tx) 1993 Providence FD 1994

If the board can not get that kind of an answer from the FD (like with the tower ladder) they should never sign the check.

You read that right. Thats what happens when you only have one bidder and everyone knows it was written for them. Thats why the board thru out the bid. And it still has not been answered, will the new rig fit in the house or will they add $5m to the engine for the station?

Prior to that NYS had HM I and HM II. When the OSHA reg came along, they tried to do the right thing, but missed the boat. Awarness is considered the minimum for EMS & Law Enforcement ((maybe Fire/Police might fall into this catagory)

1910.120(q)(6) Training. Training shall be based on the duties and function to be performed by each responder of an emergency response organization. The skill and knowledge levels required for all new responders, those hired after the effective date of this standard (March 7, 1996), shall be conveyed to them through training before they are permitted to take part in actual emergency operations on an incident....... The standard says emergency operations at an incident, and since by OSHA's definition CO, NAt. Gas, Propane, blood born, fuel, etc. are hazardous materials all calls; fire, odors, MVA's, etc. are by defalt hazmat. 1910.120(q)(6)(ii) First responder operations level. First responders at the operations level are individuals who respond to releases or potential releases of hazardous substances as part of the initial response to the site for the purpose of protecting nearby persons, property, or the environment from the effects of the release. They are trained to respond in a defensive fashion without actually trying to stop the release. Their function is to contain the release from a safe distance, keep it from spreading, and prevent exposures. First responders at the operational level shall have received at least eight hours of training or have had sufficient experience to objectively demonstrate competency in the following areas in addition to those listed for the awareness level and the employer shall so certify:....... NYS sited many FD's in Naussau county back in the mid 1990's for substandard training after they went to HM Awarness level. by the definition: ops is the minimum level for firefighters. And I stayed in a Hyatt

Its required by law for all FF's in NYS to be allowed to respond. It is also required to have an annual recertification. When I was at FLIPS the BC in charge told me it was added to make sure all FDNY officers had it.

30,000 is the minimum size that ISO will consider as a source (cisturn or pond) and it must be rated for all weather.

This is basically what is taught in FLIPS. The fire ground tactics is a prerequsite and is the basis for the civil service testing. The basics should not be taught as officer training since tactics should be part of firefighter training. How can you run if you do not know how to crawl?

FLIPS is mandated in NYS law and is not FDNY specific. It is run at FDNY and career depts from around the state send new officers to it. I know it has changed some (I weht over 10 years ago) and at that time I think about 3 hours was devoted to paperwork and FDNY guys and "upstaters" seperated to go over some of that (we were taught the NFIR reports). The program is not based on FDNY and It was interesting to see how much FDNY officers did not know about what happens outside NYC. My class had 45 FDNY & 15 Upstaters (I live closer to the city than 1/2 the FDNY guys in my class).

In this case I will defend the developer because United Water submitted an affidavid under the DEIS & FEIS that the system did not require any upgrade and the system would see no impact from the development. Then after the building was built United water sent Cappelli a bill for $1m to replace over 1 mile of water main. Cappelli had a legal document saying it was not needed. One City the DEIS/FEIS said they did not need additional personnel. The other documented a need for an additional 45 ffs/off. The 2nd was involved and the City Council was advised in a legal document what was needed and they chose to ignor it. In the 1st city if something ever happens (in any building, not just the developments) there is no legal recourse (since the FD said we are fine) In the other if anything happens anywhere in the city, the lawyers will have documents showing the city decided to take a chance. Actually at least one may go under, since he stopped paying the bills on his future plans in Orange County.

Thanks Thats part of the conclusion, but how many departments actually participate in community planning? Does your community have a master plan that includes the fire department (and its needs),what about the water supply (and not just for firefighting) at some point your development will not be substainable with just well water. Do you have a requirement in zoning for driveways (long ones) that are wide enough for fire trucks? What about pillars? If you do not own a ladder and no tall buildings, does zoning limit the height of buildings (if you have 5 over 35' then ISO says get a truck). When a developer wants to put 40 story buildings in your district do you state (in the DEIS & FEIS) that you do not have the ability to fight this type of fire (equipment &/or manpower) or that it will hurt other areas of fire protection? Fire Departments need to be involved in the planning of the community or play catch-up for at least the next 100 years

Cities & villages are not required to provide water. We do not, even though its been proven to be a money maker for those cities that do. Agreed. While fire districts do not have a legal responsability, they have a moral one, see my response below from this thread.

Yep.

Was the cost what scared them off, or the fact that with what appears to be little planning the dept wanted to replace an engine with a tower ladder. When I say little planning, I base it on the fact that the tower was purchased for a station that it would not fit it. How long did it sit at the dealer before they figured out what to do with it? I wonder what they would think of this $726,000 engine (that the village rejected in December, even thought the FD insisted that they needed it). Whats interesting is the price came down $116,000 once there was compatition. So on a $985,000+ rig they added $15,000, what for? You make it sound like it was there fault you spent so much. If it was for something important like adding a Telma retarder (which will help slow the vehicle and ruduce the cost of maintenace)or an additional year of warrenty or was it for fluff?

So thats $70,000 - $130,000 (depending on which price one is to believe) for 4 seats or $17,000-$32,000 per seat. Buy a van

Nice concept, but I highly doubt thats how this rig will run. The Paris Fire Brigade runs something like that: On a reported structure fire the send 1) Heavy Pump, 1 Light Pump and 1 ladder. Manning is as follows: Heavy Pump: 1 Commissioned Officer (like a Batt Chief), 1 MPO, 2 Sgts (or 1 and a Cpl) each with 2 firefighters Light Pump: 1 MPO, 1 Sgts & 2 firefighters Ladder: 2 firefighter (they are for exterior ladder ops only) This gives them an IC, 2 pump operators, 1 ladder operator (& FF) and 3 interior teams (attack, search, etc.) total of 14 on 3 rigs

I can think of 4 or 5 in the last year and all were substantually less (not including PCFD ENG58) Can you tell us who has spent anything close as I have yet to hear of anyone spending like this on an engine. My point was do you pay the workers comp out of that $100K or does the village pay for that and all the bonds and other items above and beyond the $100K? This is why the new NFPA standards require a total rehab at 15 years and retirement at 25 years (but only if it had the refirb). Add that cost and you will spend 2 - 3 times more

While the budget may only be listed at $100K does that include the millions in bonds on the new fire stations, the million or so on the tower ladder, the insurance (both workers comp and vehicle) plus rigs that are substanstally more than anyone else in the county is paying for and anything else not listed in the budget?

Those vehicles were in contract before there was ever talk of lay-offs. If they fail to take them the manufacture has the right to sue them, so you will be paying either way. Might as well take them. Also in a busy dept. replacing rigs saves money because of the high maintenance costs on rigs that are older than about 7-8 years.

Thats why trucks should be trucks, engines should be engines and quits don't have enoght space to d oeither job well