Jason762

New Jersey Firefighters, Troopers Butt Heads

Deputy Fire Chief Arrested for Not Moving Truck

ROCKYAWAY TOWNSHIP, N.J.-- A deputy fire chief from New Jersey ended up in handcuffs in what boiled down to a power struggle between Rockaway Township's Volunteer Fire Department and state police the night of Nov. 26.

At approximately 8:44 p.m., police received a call of a single vehicle rollover on Route 80, according to New Jersey State Police spokesman Capt. Al Della Fave. He said that as soon as troopers arrived, people inside of the wrecked Nissan Maxima were out and there were no apparent injuries besides a passenger who complained of back pains.

When an ambulance was called from Rockaway Township, Fave says things started to get out of hand. The department sent the ambulance along with two fire trucks. As the department arrived on the scene the right-hand lane was blocked off to protect the emergency workers.

The trooper on the scene, however, ordered the truck to be moved. Rockaway's Fire Chief Joe Mason described what would follow as "a screaming match."

"It's pretty black and white, there's not much of a grey area," he said. "What's important is the safety of our department. Police felt that was not acceptable."

When 53-year-old Deputy Chief Robert Jenkins refused to relocate the truck, he was arrested and charged with disobeying a state trooper and disorderly conduct. He is due back in court Nov. 30.

The truck's driver, Firefighter David Bell, also was charged with disobeying a state trooper.

"There was no extraction necessary and no fire involved. We asked them to move and they didn't comply." Della Fave said. "We never called for fire apparatus; we only called for first-aid,"

Rockaway's Fire Chief Joe Mason said the firefighters were just following protocol. "We run our own fire department ambulances," he said. "When it's a call for a rollover, when send a heavy rescue and an engine. That's something that's not going to change if they call tomorrow."

According to Della Fave, since Route 80 is a state highway, the troopers had jurisdiction of the accident scene. The New Jersey Department of Transportation deferred comment to the state police.

Mason believes that it was a matter of the safety of his firefighters. "It's one of those things where we need a written protocol that (states) if a fire department is called, a lane is allowed to be closed off. When someone gets hit, it's too late."

Della Fave pointed out that the speed of the traffic on the road -- reaching up to speeds of 70 mph -- and a lack of visibility supported the trooper's decision. He said no flares or cones were used to mark the scene. He also noted that the accident scene was close to 30 feet off of the road and that drivers would not have noticed the accident if it weren't for the fire department.

Despite the state police's stance, Mason said his department won't back down from Jenkins' charges. "Naturally we feel that they are not justified, but we will deal with it," he said. "It is just like two kids in a sandbox; they have their side of it and we have ours."

One thing both sides agreed on was how unusual the situation was.

"This is the first time that it's come up; it was a unique situation for all of us," Mason said. "We work with them all the time."

Della Fave, who has been a spokesperson with the department for 13 years, said it is the first time he has seen anything like this. He said following the incident that State Police Lt. Kenneth Villano spoke with Mason about the incident.

"Those two individuals are committed to talking in the future to make sure something like this won't happen again," Della Fave said.

While Mason said it might be premature to set up a meeting with the state police, he does believe an open dialogue will help improve interaction in the future.

"I think a little better communication between the police and the fire department would help," he said. "We are looking forward to working in the future with the New Jersey State Police. We have had a good rapport and hope this was an isolated incident."

It's a shame to see these kind of problems. I worked with this DC at my old job as a DOD firefighter. Good guy and obviously he will stand up for his guys. We've had similar situations up here on I-95 but luckily no one was ever put in cuffs...

Date: Nov 24, 2006

Time:2202 Hrs

Location: 11 Finney La

Frequency: 800 TRS

Units Operating: DC3, E1 (RIT), E2 (2nd Alarm Co.), E3, E5, E6, T1 (2nd Alarm Co), T3, R1, Medic 1, FM 109

Description Of Incident: 2nd Alarm Fire in W/F OMD

Writer: Jason762

22:02-DC3, E3, E5, E6, T3, R1 dispatched to Box 244 for a reported chimney fire

22:04-Dispatch receiving multiple calls of a working fire in a condo complex

22:05-E3, T3 o/s confirming a W/F, multiple occupants fleeing apartments. E1 responding as RIT.

22:10-2 Lines stretched and operating, Truck Co's laddering roof/venting, Rescue Co. evacuating sleeping occupants

22:15-DC3 requests a 2nd Alarm. E2 and T1 responding.

22:36-DC Aide requests Fire Marshal to scene

22:42-Recall fire under control, releasing E1 and E2

23:25-E3, T3 remaining on scene with Fire Marshal, releasing all other units.

So far on this thread there is nothing Career vs. Volley.  Only thing I see is Jason trying to figure out why guys are getting burned out.  He is relating to when he was a volley.

Everytime someone wants to speak from a career perspective does'nt make it career vs volley.

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Thank you ltrob!!! You hit the nail right on the head. Just because I raised a question that has to do with vol. and career FF's doean't mean this is a this guy vs. that guy argument. I know its very easy to jum on that bandwagon but in this case its not true. I am just wondering why so many vollies are feeling burnt out. I work 2 jobs plus OT, take college classes, try to see my wife as often as I can, attend union meetings, and attend a whole lot of training, yet I feel anything but burned out. I don't understand why a person who is "on-duty 24/7" like was stated earlier, but probably only runs a few hundred calls a year (if that), and attend a few meetings and drills would feel burnt out??? If you are tired of dealing with dumb people, maybe you should find another line of work. If there were no dumb people there really wouldn't be much of a need for FF's. You should love what you do, if you view all these requirments as a hassle, then go find something else to do. This may seem like a stretch but these attitudes tie in to such things as LODD's. If people looked at the FD as more of a job and less of a social club and took things like training a little more serious (or actually attended training in the first place), maybe we could reduce the LODD's in the fire service.

Volunteers go 24/7 7 days a week w/o a break

Lets not exaggerate things, ltjay. I'm sure you're VFD is not so busy that it is just non-stop action all day and night. Who's kidding who here...nobody is going non-stop 24/7.

I am kind of confused about Volunteer firefighter burnout. Before I was a paid guy I was a vollie for about 6 years. Now I've been a paid guy for about 10. My confusion comes from wondering what volunteer firefighter burnout is. What are you getting burned out from? Call volume...doubt it. Details at the firehouse that have to get done...doubt it. After living the life of both a vollie and a paid guy I have to say that my guys and I do more in a 24 hour shift (between runs, house details, admin details, training, and any thing else that comes up) than most vollie dept.'s probably do in a week or even a month or more. This being said there really isn't much burnout in the career service. If anything there is frustration from lack of activity. So, why are you getting burned out? Shouldn't you be excited to go on runs? Shouldn't you want to be at the firehouse? I'm not sure what type of firefighter gets burned out in todays day and age, but maybe someone can enlighten me.

p.s. My above statements do not apply to EMS workers as they put up with more crap than amy other emergency workers, and it has been well documented about their burnout.

You read about a police officer (I am not bashing cops!!!!!) who bangs on doors to let people know there is a fire in a building.Rescue or removal?

Thats a removal

A team of firefighters finds a jumper on the roof of an exposure of a building (no longer in immediate danger of the fire) and take him away in a stokes from a 1 story exposure. Rescue or removal?

Why was he taken down in a stokes if it was he was on an exposure building? Why couldn't they use the interior stairs or at worst a ladder? Any which ways its still a removal.

2 firefighters find a person unconscience  in a bedroom of an apt fire and take him to safety. Rescue or removal?

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Now that is a rescue.

Unless I am misinterpreting this sentence, you are saying right here that you only have to be concerned with LEL readings when they get up to the 80+% range...

Therefore you only have to be concerned of an explosive concentration in this instance when your meter reads 100%, or to play it safe 80%.

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What I said was if the guys don't know how to accurately read the meter they're using, they might think it's O.K to be in such an atmosphere because it's well above the explosive range(too rich), not knowing they are actually within the gas' explosive range because that % is a % of the LEL.

And it is never okay to be in an atmosphere that is within or above the expolsive range...

For instance, if your meter reads 5% of Natural Gas, it's not actually 5% NG, it's 5% of NG's LEL of 5% which means the actual concentration of NG is .25% well below the explosive range of NG which is 5% -15%. Therefore you only have to be concerned of an explosive concentration in this instance when your meter reads 100%, or to play it safe 80%.

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While you are right about the fact that on most meters we carry in the fire service the reading on the LEL is a % of the LEL, not the actual % of gas in air, you are completely and dangerously wrong about when it is time to back out. The standard is that at 10% of the LEL inside a building and at 20% outside we vantialte and/or leave the area. Staying inside until you get to the 80-100% range is crazy and irresponsibly dangerous. Do you want to stand in an explosive enviornment? Not me.... This is why FF's get hurt, those that are leading the way, not knowing their job.

The reading you are getting is what the mixture is where you are standing and at where you are holding the meter. It may be at a much higher level only a few feet away from you (possibly up or down not just in front of you, another reason to know the characteristics of the gas you are dealing with, vapor density, LEL to UEL ranges, etc.). That is why the safety factors where built in, to leave at a lower level and stay far away from the danger zone. Also know what gas the meter was calibrated to. Most are not calibrated to methane (many are pentane or another gas) and there are conversion factors that should be used to figure that actual % of LEL. Also utilize your gas companies as mich as possible. Many of them carry gas in air % meters that actually show the % of gas in the air, and they are calibrated to methane, and they are actually calibrated often and properly which I don't know if that can be said for meters in some FD's.

You guys have been right that many people may look at a meter and have no idea what they are looking at, but how many of us really know how to safely use these meters. Educate yourselves before you get hurt.

It is with deepest regret and sorrow to report the line-of-duty death of Captain Joseph Sebastian Pagano, Jr. of IAFF Local 1073 - Middletown, Connecticut. Brother Pagano, 52, died on Friday, November 3, 2006 after going into cardiac arrest while at the station. The viewing will be held on Wednesday, November 8, 2006 from 5:00 to 8:00 p.m. at Biega Funeral Home, 3 Silver Street, Middletown, Connecticut 06457, (860) 346-1055. The funeral will be held on Thursday, November 9, 2006 at 10:00 a.m. at St. Pius X Church, 310 Westfield Street, Middletown, Connecticut 06456, (860) 347-4441. The burial will follow at St. Sebastian Cemetery. In lieu of flowers, memorial contributions may be made to the Justine and Marlise Pagano Educational Fund, c/o MiddConn Municipal Credit Union, 213 Court Street, Suite 101, Middletown, CT 06457.

Last night Capt. Joe Pagano of the Middletown, CT FDsuffered a heart attack after returning from several runs with his company. He was a member of MFD since 1978. Arrangements will follow.

the low flow is designed to give u a Decent stream even with less then 100psi at the tip as most normal TFT nozzels require.

They make TFT's designed to operate at 50psi or 75psi and still give you in the range of 150-180 gpm..

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The problem with these nozzles, and it has been discussed here before a while ago, is that although these TFT automatic nozzles are designed to appear to have an effective, proper stream at low pressures, they are in fact not producing the GPM that is needed to effectively attack a fire. To the eye everything looks fine but you are flowing less GPM than you may think. This is just one of the problems with TFT nozzles, departments should look into using smoothbore nozzles for all hi-rise applications. I'd rather use a nozzle that is designed to be used at 50psi and whose GPM can be easily calculated, rather than one that appears to flow effective streams but does not in fact.

While on this topic, what size hoseline does your Dept. utilize off of a standpipe for its initial attack, whether its in a highrise or not? We switched over to 2-75' lenghts of 2" with smooth bores a couple of yrs. back, finally replacing the 3-50' lenghts of 13/4" with a TFT fog nozzle that use to make up our standpipe paks. FDNY uses nothing less than 21/2" line with straight tips, on all standpipe jobs, whether it be in a highrise or not. Just curious, as to what are other Depts. protocols are and also, what are other Depts. sops. with regards to using elevators to gain access to upper floors whether they're in a highrise or not?

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Stamford FD uses 2-75' lengths of 2" hose with 15/16" tip on all standpipe jobs. As for elevators, if its below the 7th floor we're walking, above 7 floors, taking the elevator until 2 floors below the reported fire floor, with safety stops every 5 floors and always checking the shaft for smoke, water, etc. Also no more than 6 members in the elevator at one time, and preferably leaving one member in the elevator to act as the elevator operator to pick up other crews/equipment. Check how the apartments are lined up 2 floors below and the location of the standpipe hookup on the floor below the hookup (very important in scissor stair buildings). All members need a radio, irons, and SCBA in elevator. Also use FD elevator service when available.

Matt, I guess midnights have been slow...

Any truth to the following rumors regarding SFRD aerial apparatus?

Current T-2, sutphen 75, would be outfitted with a bucket and offered to Belltown to replace TL-45. Current T-4 Mack 109' fire spire would be traded for Glenbrook L-31 to improve SFRD reserve fleet. Both heard from fairly reliable sources, any SFRD members with info?

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That ones a new one to me (not that I'm in the know about all the closed door meetings), but last I heard it was a possibility for old T-2 to go to Glenbrook in exchange for T-31. This would give them a quint which judging by their manpower issues would be a much more fitting apparatus. And as for the fate of T-4...all we can hope for is that it goes to the scrap heap.

x152 would have been there, but he was too busy driving Cheshire's Pierce Quantum rescue.

The pictures of the drill have been posted follow this link:

http://www.stamfordfire.com/Photos/index.cfm

This was an impressive drill and a good job was done by all involved. It was nice to get to use a lot of the new specialty USAR equipment in a realistic setting. Hopefully we'll see more drills along these lines in the future.

City of Stamford CT:

City FD did approx. 117 runs in 24 hours

Combination FD's did around 50 runs in 24 hours

Very busy day and night in the city with calls ranging from wires down, to building collapses, to structure fires. The following day the city FD did about 34 runs.

Besides the FDNY Petzl system what other systems are in use in this area? I use 40 feet of 8mm rope with a mini-rack pre-connected to a Gemtor harness. Basically all that is left is to find an anchor point which can be accomplished by placing a tool (halligan, all metal hook) in the corner of the window and off you go. A simple system that works quickly and reliably, cause when the s--- hits the fan, there is no time to screw around making connections or tying knots.

I believe the Greenwich incident is not a good example because the fire had been going for close to 1 hour and the firefighters were sent in after a missing child. At that point the child had 0 survivability.

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How is that not a good example? It met all the criteria for which your question was asking. Just because the tactics at the fire may have been questionable doesn't mean it wasn't a good example of when having a bail-out system would have possibly been helpful.

Thursday's game (vs. Baltimore) was a good indication of what was to come.................

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X152,

Do you care to revise your post after watching the Yanks take both sides of the doubleheader? Then again what do you expect from a team that was swept by the Royals only a week or so ago...break out the golf clubs boys, there will be no post-season in Beantown...

Thanks for the further explanation. I am familiar with the opticom system, we have it as well, and like you said it works most of the time. For whatever reason I forgot you had stated you use the opticom in your first post. As for the rest I agree with what you said and I wasn't placing judgement on your response methods just wanted clarification. We generally try to push the cars up on the sidewalks (kind of like parting the seas for lack of a better description), rather than push them through the light. Although you can't control what any of these idiots do behind the wheel. Everybody's in a rush to go nowhere...

If we come up on a traffic light (RED) and there are vehicles in front of us and the OPTICOM does not capture it, we are to cut all sirens (electronic and mechanical) off and stop just like everyone else.

We leave the warning lights on, but do not make any "noise" until the light goes green.

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So if I understand this correctly if you are responding to a reported structure fire with people trapped and approach a negative right-of-way intersection you sit there behind God knows how many other cars and wait for the light to turn green? Now I am all for safe driving and not being an idiot behind the wheel of a 30 ton fire apparatus, but this seems a little excessive. Maybe its me but isn't there a big difference between coaxing cars to the side to let us by and coming up behind them at 75 mph thus making them pull out into an intersection. I guess you must not have bad traffic because if we were to shut off our sirens at every red light, it would probably take 20 minutes or more to get to half of our calls. Now I'm not knocking the way anyone else operates, just curious because I've never heard of responding this way.

Anyone know if CT accepts NY or VA EMT-B?

They will probably offer a CPAT as part of their selection process.

No residency requirement is the intruiging part.

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I believe if you are NY state EMT getting reciprocity is not a problem. The application saya you have to have a valid CPAT card at the time of appointment meaning you have to schedule an appointment and take the CPAT and pass it before you are appointed. Many towns/cities in CT don't have a residency requirement or offer points to residents but allow anyone to take the test.

and to answer another question, if there were college credits required they would list that in the "Requirements" field on the application...

Date: August 3, 2006

Time:11:13 Hours

Location: 595 Summer St

Frequency: 800 TRS

Units Operating: DC2, E1, E3, E5, E6, E8 (callback), T3, R1, M3, M4, M901 (supervisor), M91 (special op's unit)

Description Of Incident: Transformer explosion/gas explosion

Writer: Jason762

At 11:13 Hours E5 was sent to investigate smoke and sparks from a transformer. Upon arrival E5 found a construction accident had occured causing an electrical exploision as well as an explosion from a gas main leak.

11:21 Hours- Power shut down to a large portion of downtown Stamford. Multiple calls for people stuck in elevators throughout the city ensued.

11:45 Hours- A full box assignment was dispatched. Many local high-rise businesses and residences were evacuated due to high levels of natural gas found.

12:30 Hours-Callback crews were assembled to man one engine company and a second rescue company.

13:30 Hours-Medic Special operations rehab unit on scene for firefighter rehab.

14:21 Hours-Relief crew sent to scene. Crews stood by until all buildings were monitored and safe levels were found. Power company would remain on scene into the night to make repairs.

15:40 Hours-Last FD unit cleared the scene.

It's hard for me to believe that younger members who posted some of their ridiculous ideas of how the fire service should be, really feel this way. When I was a vollie, new to the fire service I couldn't wait for drill night. I never found training to be boring, or felt that I was being over-trained. It was great to be introduced to all kinds of different knowledge and information. And my feeling for training continues to this day, its the one thing you can always fall back on when the s*** hits the fan. If you don't have that knowledge base then God help you the day you get jammed up. Or maybe the shiny trophy you won will give you the answer you need.

Maybe the problem in some of these dept.'s is the way this information is being presented. If your instructors are sub-par in their knowledge or ability to present the information in an interesting manner (such as relating book information to real life stories/experiences) than the experience can be painful for all involved. Training should not be boring for the members. Yes, there are some topics (bloodborne pathogens for example) that are mandatory yearly classes and aren't the most exciting, but they may also save your life or keep you from contracting a disease. Point is, if you find training boring maybe this whole fire service thing isn't for you. Perhaps you should find an interest in a more "exciting" field where you don't need to actually know what you're doing.

How about take pride in lowering your response times, increasing and diversifying your training, meeting all NFPA and OSHA standards, having certified training requirements for officers, drivers, and chiefs, ensuring you have full crews, making sure all you FFs have AVET, Survival, and FF 1 as a minimum, encouraging members to take as MUCH training as possible, practicing essential firefighting skills regularly, having your members take First Aid, CPR, and AED traing, and/or instituting a physical fitness requirement? 

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But those things don't involve shiny plastic trophies and beer. Oh yeah and getting to ride on the hosebed of the engine..

To paid department members, how many parades does your department participate in a year, what type of apparatus do you send, what sort of coverage do you have for your department when you go to parades

We attend our own St Patty's Day, Memorial Day, Thanksgiving Day, and probably one or two others. We only send 1 engine company and any off-duty members that would like to attend. These aren't the typical volly parades, just march the route and at the end, off you, go back in service. Other than that, none.