Jason762

I see you are at it again x152, spewing your Yankee hatred around. Just because it will be another 84 yearts until the Red Sox win another title is no reson to be upset...

Date: 3/19/2006 Time: 1821 hours Location: 562 Atlantic Street, XStreet Manhattan Street Frequency: 800 mHz Trunked (Operations and Fireground) Units Operating: E-2, E-1, E-6, T-2, R-1, DC-1, FM-106; SEMS Medic #1, Medic 901 (Supervisor); SPD. Description Of Incident: Fully involved two-car garage. Cause is under investigation. Building is located in a block of vacant buildings to be demolished this week to make room for the Transitway Project. Writer: SFRD49

ALS, thank you for having some common sense and an open mind. People on this website constantly speak of professionalism and equality between career and vols, but then in complete contradiction to this, posts like that by DFFD in this thread and posts like the recently deleted 10 things about being a FF... are detrimental and harming to your service. Yes, most of you do not agree with what was said, but it only takes one bad comment to make us all look foolish. The bottom line is all of us need to follow the same standards...I can see that you all can talk the talk, but what we need is for you to be able to walk the walk. Until attitudes like those previously stated are abolished you can never progress. There is only one set of standards out there, not one for vol., one for career, one for combination, etc. Follow the standards or go home, end of story.

I don't know of any FD's using Class A foam reguraly(in this area). If any one is let me know how it is working out, for us, it is not a consideration at this time. I have heard they are having great success with it in Europe but I have not had the time to do any research on it. Who's using it in this area?

DFFD, so what ever happened to holding paid and vol's to the same standard??? I have heard over and over again on this website that we are all the same, but by your statement vol FF's can do what they want. Grow a beard...sure FF1...ah, who needs it, we are volunteers. Why don't you stop hiding behind the word volunteer, and agree to the same standards as career FF's. Once again folks, this is a job, not a hobby.

Stranger, you may start to see more cats in trees on the west side...they'll be hiding from all the bullets flying near your quarters.

This is true, and on top of the fact that the stairwell turns into a chimney, the parade of panicked civilians will make it quite difficult to bring someone UP the stairs to the roof. We all would like to seperate stairwells into an attack stairwell and an evacuation stairwell, but when the s--t hits the fan, and people panic its not going to happen. Just stick with the basics. Attack the fire, rescue those that can be rescued, and protect in place as many as you safely can. If they are remote from the fire, and proper ventilation and fire attack take place, most people can stay put in a fire resistive or non-combustible OMD. If people need to be removed the best method is via interior fire protected stairs, then the fire escape if its in good condition (which most are not), then via aerial ladder or ground ladder. Oh and DOWN is probably a better idea than UP in terms of direction of travel for victim removal.

Goalie, Very well stated. It seems a lot of FF's out there have not taken the time to educate themselves about the hierarchy of rescue priority. Remember everyone, fire floor, floor above, top floor, then work your way down from the top floor. Many people that need the greatest help are those that CAN NOT be seen or heard. The person that is screaming at the window can at least scream and yell. What about the unconscious person close to the fire apartment. Why would you write off this building? Nothing was said about there being an overwhelming amount of fire. This is a relatively bread and butter type fire. Yes there are many tasks that need to be accomplished simultaneously, so a second alarm is in order depending on your first alarm compliment of people, but there is no need to write off this building. I hope some of you are not in command positions in your respective FD's. As for the failure of the initial attack, no specifics were given on why it failed so remedying this is not possible w/o those specifics. Can it be fixed with a second line, a larger line, or did water supply fail for some reason. Need more details...

DC2T, How did you come up with this number? Using the formula GPM=29.7xsq root NPxDiameter of the orifice squared you get around 185 GPM from a 15/16 tip at 50 psi. At that flow you lose approx 27 psi per 100 feet (friction loss)leaving about 46 psi for the tip. Close enough to the 50 psi needed at the tip. Now say you were able to get 240 GPM from a 15/16 tip, you certainly couldn't do it with a pump pressure of 100 psi. At 240 GPM you lose approx 46 psi per 100 fet of 2" hose leaving approx 8 psi for the nozzle based on your statement of flowing 240 gpm at 100 psi PDP through 200' of 2". Not sure how you got this?????

I'm not sure if we are on the same page here. Are you saying you can always tell when there is a kink if you are the MPO or when you are on the inside. As an MPO I would have to agree with you, yes you should be able to tell, but on the inside I have to say no, you would not be able to tell unless it was such a severe kink it cut your water supply completely or close to it. Otherwise you would still have a line that felt hard, had a good pattern. and appeared to be flowng adequate GPM based on the whole design behind automatic nozzles.

CFD, Here is one of the main problems with the TFT, you have no idea when on the nozzle if you have an effective fire stream or not. The stream and pattern appear to be good, but in reality the nozzle is not flowing enough GPM's. The GPM's are what puts out the fire not the pressure. This problem has been documented by many big city FD's and has led them to no longer use the TFT. Many of their FF's thought they were flowing the GPM's that the nozzle is designed for but in reality they were flowing way less and many times it was of no fault of the pump operator. A kink in the hose will severely reduce your GPM (up to 30% at a 90 degree bend I believe)and with the TFT you will have no idea about this loss of GPM. With a smooth bore you will know when something is going wrong. Also I would like to hear how you get more GPM with less reaction force out of a TFT than a smooth bore

What in the world where those guys thinking about. There was fire to the floor and they crawl in???? Those aren't fire entry suits we wear. Is there any write up on what happened or why they did what they did, I looked and couldn't find anything on FFclosecalls. From here it just looks like stupidity.

2 people can handle a 2" line, BUT there are several things to be aware of: -they will take a bit of a beating on the line -with only 2 people there is no one to chase kinks, which can be extremely detrimental to an effective flow rate. -with only 2 people there is no one on the line or adjacent to it that can watch your back i.e look what's going on around, not letting the fire get behind you, etc. -there will be no one to halp advance the line around corners, up stairs, etc. Of the few things I've listed, you must encounter these problems anyway with only 2 people on a line regardless of hose size. Why don't you have more people on a line? How about teaming up companies to put the first line in operation. First line placement is one of the most important things on the fireground. This needs to take priority over almost any other action, except the obvious (recue needs, exposure protection, etc.).

go to incidentpage.net price is about $8/month I think plus the cost of the pager airtime.

So if the boat is occupied by the owners who may be asleep, just let it go? Some people do live on their boats. A primary search or at least some sort of attempt to find out if anyone is on board has to be done. We don't just send off a boat that is on fire w/o first checking things out, right?

Stamford EMS operates 4 paramedic level transport ambulance from 0630-1830 and then drops down to 3 paramedic transport ambulance and one paramedic fly car from 1830-0630. They also always have 1 supervisor on-duty. As for type of ambulance, they have switched over from the van style ambulances to all full box type ambulances. Thats as much as I know about types of ambulances. They also have a web site www.stamfordems.org.

I agree with what was already stated, there are pro's and con's to both. I have had the opportunity to work with both types of rigs (our old rescue, which is now the reserve rescue, is a walk thru type, and our current rig is the non walk-thru type) and I have to say because of our needs in our dept. the walk thru style is better. Yes you get more storage space in sq feet, but a lot of this space is unusable (of course this could be because of poor design).The biggest problem we have is that there is not enough storage space for all of our equipment. The way it is set up right now is all of our everyday stuff is on the frontline rig and the technical rescue equipment is kept on the reserve. Anyway not to digress, but it depends what the dept plans to use it for. Another reason we liked the walk thru more was the divers can get dressed enroute to the call. There is a design out there where all members sit in the front cab of the rig, and behind the front cab there is a bench type seat and dressing area for divers/rehab area. This design combines the best of both worlds, plenty of storage space and still a place to dress. Have your apparatus committee sit down and figure out what the new rig would be used for before making a purchase. A little planning goes a long way.

How about instead of relying on as few resources as possible you call as many depts. as needed until adequate manpower is on the scene. The fact of the matter is removing a downed FF with only 2 guys or for that matter 6 is a nearly impossible task. Also I read the same report on the fire in Brooklyn as you mentioned and probably more detrimental to the rescue operation was the lack of coordination between teams. Yes we all want to run in and help when a mayday is transmitted but don't lose focus on the purpose of the RIT. Other op's are supposed to continue while the dedicated team effects the rescue. Coordination is key, manpower is key.

In my experience an urgent message is transmitted when a threat is looming or soon to take place. Examples are you signs of a possible structural collapse about to take place, fire conditions deteriorating, etc. A mayday would be used for an actual emergency in progress, low or out of air, the need to activate the RIT, lost or disoriented, FF down, cut off by fire extension, etc. It shoudl be stressed to never be afraid to call an urgent or mayday message. Many FF's lives may have been saved if they called a mayday earlier. Its not some macho BS to try and tough it out or handle the situation yourself. We are all there to help eachother out, don't be afraid to ask for it.

Well blkcloud to respond to your statement, no thank God, in real life I have never had to drag an unconscious FF, but I do have extensive training in RIT operations. Probably not nearly as much as you seem to have but maybe someday I'll get there. Now to answer this question about what building can we use 12 FF's in? How about any building that experiences a floor collapse into sending the downed FF into the basement which would require several FF's to initiate patient care. Several more FF's to assist in possibly gaining access to the FF, several more to rig a lifting system to raise the downed FF from the basement if you cant remove him from a seperate exit. And several more FF's to shuttle equipment. Well, looks like we are getting close to 12. And as I stated earlier, this is not just my opinion, this is stated in several books, most noteably John Norman's Fire Officers Handbook of Tactics, which is written by a man that saw more fire then you or I ever will. If you haven't read it I recommend you do. Obviously you can't get 12 guys on top of one FF but there is a lot of support work that needs to be done and if its to be done in a timely fashion you need manpower. Its not always as simple as picking up a downed FF and walking out the building.

6 member fast team will be capable of handling whatever the task is??????? Are you serious??? I'm not sure if you've ever tried moving an unconscious FF in full turnout gear either in training or in real life but 6 members will not cut it. Now add in the possibility of entanglement, entrapment, structural collapse, below grade rescue, etc. Also what if the FF is out of or low on air? Do you have procedures/equipment for that? these are all questions that need answering. I recommend you read John Norman's book "Fire Officer's Handbook of Tactics" to get a better idea of how many FF's are really needed. I don't have the book in front of me right now but I believe he states in a real FF down situation you will need at least 12 FF's. Now is this number possible, probably not, not even in most career depts. But to say that a 6 member team will be able to handle any situation is incorrect.

We have an SOG regarding this topic. It states following a fire, SCBA shall be worn until the atmosphere has been metered and is within acceptable limits. These limits are defined as O2 levels above 19.5% and CO below 50 ppm. If metering shows acceptable levels, SCBA can be removed, if not SCBA shall remain in place. It also states metering devices shall remain in the fire area during overhaul. In real life does this happen? What do you think...

Just so everyone does not think I am just a ranter/basher here are my suggestions: -recruit those that actually want to be FF's -discourage those that are joining: for the cheap beer/place to hang out/because my buddies did/they have a big TV/etc. -TRAIN/TRAIN/TRAIN AND THEN TRAIN SOME MORE -always encourage members to stay active and pursue education within and from outside your dept. and/or state. There are many new and different ideas out there. The way we do it may not be the best/only way. -Stay in the books...there is so much knowledge to be gained from so many different sources. -Know your equipment inside and out. -Have a mentoring program so senior members can train newer members and stay active and current themselves. -Do not tolerate drinking/drugs/stupidity on the fireground. Remove anyone under the influence at once. -Learn from your own and others mistakes. -Critique fires and major incidents and use it to learn, not criticize. -Have an officers training program. -Stress proffesionalism and public relations. We get enough bad press, we don't need more. -When in uniform or representing your dept. act appropriately. FYI-this goes for anyone vol or career. OK thats enough for now.

With life safety and of that, primarily OUR LIFE SAFETY, being our number 1 priority at any incident that is taught from day one of FF training, perhaps this Chief should sit thru a refresher class on basics in firefighting or better yet, removed from his post. This comment is completely irresponsible and ridiculous. Like everyone has said, a building can be rebuilt, but you can't replace an injured/killed FF. I'm certainly glad I'm not under his command.

From Irons...And yes Brother, we are being baffled by some of the best in the business here, Im sure all these posters have done it all, crawled down many a hallway in their day ....YEAH RIGHT. Well before you start making accusations like that maybe you should do a little research. I'm sure you've crawled down plenty more hallways than myself in your day, but I may have been down 1 or 2. But then again I'm not sure I'd trust anyone that refers to our job as the need "to preserve life and property from the ravages of the Red Devil", a quote from your post on Dec. 18, 2005. Probably wearing the complete Gall's catalog outfit right now too, right? Anyway, I didn't want to get personal, but I did feel the need to reply as I am surrounded by some of the greatest FF's ever on this site.