Jason762

Find me an agency that meets all applicable NFPA standards, start on the east coast and work your way west, you won't find one...There is no dept. around that can meet them all, wheteher the reason be money, manpower, equipment, etc. We can all do our best to try and meet the most important ones, but in the real world it is just not a possibility. Obviously there are some standards (ex. 1403) that must be adheared to at all times, but others (ex. 1500) are so extensive that they can never be fully met.

No state is an NFPA state, although NFPA standards typically do exceed OSHA regulations. NFPA puts out consensus standards that jurisdictions can chose to adopt or not to adopt. They can pick and choose what standards they will follow and which they will not, BUT if they chose to not meet a standard and a person gets hurt and the court finds that the NFPA standard is what a reasonable person would do, then there will be liability issues. For instance NFPA 1403 is the live fire training standard. If a dept. chooses to ignore this stanard and conduct live fire training and a FF gets hurt during the evolution, in court the standard will be brought up and the parts the dept. did not follow will be brought up. Then if the court finds that the NFPA standard is what a reasonable person would have done, the dept/IC can be found negligent. Also an NFPA standard can be adopted into a local ordinance if a municipality chooses to do so. This then takes the standard and makes it law. We as "the fire service" should do as much as possible the meet or exceed as many NFPA standards as possible, they are there for our protection whether it be manpower issues, health and safety, basic FF standards, and the list goes on and on.

One more point, just because your dept. doesn't use "Jaws"is no excuse not to have a basic understanding of how they work (i.e. they are powered by hydraulics, not pneumatics). I think these tools are covered in FFI and in the IFSTA Essentials book, thus making them a piece of equipment that all FF's meeting the 1001 standard should have a basic idea of how they work. Maybe it's me, but I though we were all supposed to be on a level playing field...

ECLEMENTE, You're kidding me right???? This has to be a joke, no person with 300+ posts and as many quotes, sayings, and pictures on their emtbravo profile would think that hydraulic rescue tools were run by air compressors!!! Before we all dress up to play fireman, and talk a big game, shouldn't we all know our equipment and our job. This is the type of attitude that really aggitates me of so many volunteers. They like to play the game and act like firemen, but when it comes down to doing the job, what do they know!?!? Now before everyone jumps on me I know, most of you are not like this, but it only takes one ridiculous comment like that to make us all look bad. Do your homework, learn your equipment, and think before you speak! And by the way, there are also plenty of systems where you can run more than one tool of the same power plant...LEARN YOUR JOB!!!

Go to the following websites to find info/training dates and locations (I'm not sure which agencies are recognized in NY state, I know Powerphone and Priority Dispatch are accepted in CT): http://www.apcointl.org/ www.powerphone.com http://www.prioritydispatch.net/

I agree with you 100%. Maybe I wasn't getting my point across clearly. The PD reference was meant for vols. who drive their personal vehicles at high speeds, not apparatus operators. The whole point of my posts being, if you agree with the tactics these people in MD are doing you should re-evaluate your belonging in the fire service. They are unsafe and unprofesional and should be called out for the irresponsible idiots that they are.

I wasn't going to post again because I'm not looking to get into a tit for tat argument but when the report of a fire comes in and the adrenaline starts rushing, and the tunnel vision starts setting in, and all you want to do is get to that fire, THAT is the time when you need to stop, take a deep breath, and relax. It is not the time to put the pedal to the metal and start driving more aggressively. This is the reason and the mentality that is the leading cause of why so many firefighters are killed every year in MVA's involving fire apparatus and vol's responding in their personal vehicles. Most of us are not police officers who have training in operating vehicles at high speeds. Slow down and take your time, the fire will still be there when you arrive.

Most Dept.'s I consider "great" dept.'s are not accused of sabotaging other FD's gear and equipment. They may be aggressive on the fireground but if you participate in unsafe and unproffesional acts such as those that were named, the term "great dept." goes right out the window. Who cares how many calls they run. Thats no excuse for acting like a-holes, in fact it is a reason to act MORE safely and profesionally. Also I hope its not my family that gets in your way when you're responding to "the big one" since you said you drive more aggresively to calls. Be careful, the first injury you cause because of your aggressive driving may be the last time you act that way. Well I guess everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but when emotions run high and common sense takes a back seat to pride these things can definetely happen. Don't live in a dream world where we all live and work together happily. These things DO happen and will continue to until we change our mentallity.

I am all for competition and company pride, but there comes a time when you have to step back and know that safety is our first priority. I enjoy beating other companies into fires, saying my company is better than yours, etc, but fist fights at fires???, sabotaging other FF's equipment??? What are these guys thinking? Those types of actions are completely unprofeesional and uncalled for. Now I know these are all just allegations and no one can prove it did or did not happen, but we all know what takes place in the firehouse, and how little things can spiral out of control at times. Someone needs to get control of the bad apples down there and tone down the over aggressive nature that has become the way of life before someone gets seriously hurt or killed. I blame the leadership of the dept. for not getting a handle on this earlier. Whether they didn't know what was going on (which I doubt) or were even encouraging these attitudes, they should be held accountable. You are supposed to lead by example and obviously they were not.

Date: April 22, 2006 Time: 01:50 Hrs Location: Atlantic St/ Bank St Frequency: 800 TRS Units Operating: All available PD units, State Police Major Crme Squad, State police Helicopter, Medic1, Enigne 6 Description Of Incident: Stamford PD involved in shooting Writer: Jason762 01:50 Hrs-Calls received for shots fired in area of Atlantic St and Bank St in Downtown Stamford PD involved in shootout with one person. Person who was shooting at PD was shot by the PD and transported to Stamford Hospital by Medic 1 and Engine 6. State Police Helicopter used to clear all rooftops in area. FD remained on scene with light trailer to assist in investigation and blood removal.

Just a point of reference: NFPA makes standards, OSHA makes regulations, they are two seperate and distinct things. many people interchange the words regulations and standards, but until an NFPA standard is adopted by an AHJ it is just that, a standard that can be adheared to or not. Unless of course a case goes to court and then it can be sold to a jury that the NFPA standard is what reasonable person would do and that person in violation of the standard can be held liable, but anyway I digress.

Does NY State run an NFPA 1521 certification class? We have one in CT and I would think if there were an investigation OSHA would want to see a certified safety officer, not just some guys that took an in-house class.

Pretty much all the methods to gaining access to car fires have already been named so I won't waste time re-naming them. Instead I will offer a piece of advice from something I have personally seen happen. At a routine car fire a probie was told to open the hood to a car. He attempted to do so using a halligan bar and attempted to pry open the hood near the locking mechanism. He was met with a lot of resistance but continued to pry. Now this was a young, in shape, strong, former military man. Not some fat slob, or weak little guy. Well long story short, 9 months later and he is still out of work with back problems and the doctors (yes doctors as in multiple) can't seem to figure out how to fix him up. Not a good way to start you career, this guy had only a few months on the job. Now my point in all this is, it is only a CAR FIRE. Who cares how we get into it, how much damage we cause, as long as WE stay safe. The car is done, insurance will take care of it. We have to stay safe, this kids career may be over, because of a stupid car fire. We carry lots of tools on our rigs, lets use them, why not use your partner saw??? There is no need to bust your a@$ to open a hood or trunk. Most of these car fires are arson jobs anyway, so take care of yourself and your partners.

Does your dept. require them to be certified to NFPA 1521 level? We require a safety officer at every working fire, haz-mat incident, and technical rescue and under normal circumstances they will be 1521 certified.

What is everyone's feelings on driving the wrong way down a divided highway? There are plenty of cases where the FD or EMS was told a highway was closed down and proceeded down the road the wrong way only to be met by traffic coming right at them. I personally feel it is a dangerous manouver that should only be taken under extreme cases (i.e. not for a car fire), and only when it is CONFIRMED that all traffic has ceased movement. Also do all your FD's close down the lane of the incident and an additional lane of traffic? Some PO's get very upset about this procedure, but it is for our safety.

Stamford uses the following responses to I-95: MVA Northbound: Available medic unit (Medic 1 is first due), Engine 3, and Rescue 1 MVA Soutbound: Available medic unit (Medic 2 is first due), Engine 6, and Rescue 1 Car fire: 2 Engine Companies MVA w/ fire:2 Engine Co.'s, Rescue 1, and available medic unit We try to keep our truck co.'s off the highway due to the major amount of highway congestion and the potential for them to be involved in an MVA themselves.

There are many different types of foam. Your best bet is to read IFSTA Essentials (fire streams chapter) or IFSTA Fire Streams book to get complete information. Also John Norman's Fire Officer Handbook of Tactics has quite a bit of foam information (and a lot of high-ex foam info). The basics that are still used for the most part are Aqueous Film Forming Foam (AFFF) and Film Forming Flouroprotein (FFFP). These have different properies and different beneftits and drawbacks, thus making them applicable to use in different situations. IMHO AFFF-AR is probably the best all around foam. AR stands for alcohol resitant. We run with the newer 1%-3% foam (1% for hydrocarbon fires and 3% for polar solvent fires). This allows us to use lesser amounts of foam at a fire which is a big deal since most of us don't carry nearly enough foam to handle large scale incidents. Off the top of my head I believe our foam tank size is in the area of 50 gallons, possibly smaller, I'm sure x152 will post the exact size (I'm too tired to look it up right now). Hope this helps.

I disagree with the above statement, I'd like to know if I'm talking to someone who has actually been in a fire or two or just some kid who read a book. Years of service, rank held or previously held, vol or career, are all helpful when having a debate or discussion. Which FD you work/volunteer for, name, address, and phone number, I can understand if some people may not want to give that info out. Just my ideas.

Maybe I shouldn't get involved in this thread because I believe you are just talking about VFD's in Westchester (with which I have no experience), but I do take exception to the statement of "How many actual emergencies does the average FD respond to that require their intervention to mitigate threats to life?" The FD I work for responds to many actual emergencies everyday. We run as first responders to any life-threatening EMS call in the city as well as our fair share of fires and rescues. Maybe we are not an "average FD" as you stated but you seem to be downplaying the importance of the FD in emergency response. And I'm not sure what you meant by "How many people were pulled from a fire, rescued from a collapse ,or extricated from a collision?". Did you mean how many today, last week, or ever? Plenty of peoples lives have been saved by actions taken by FD's. DO NOT downplay the importance of the FD. We are all a vital service to the community. It is also untrue that "In EMS every time you are called it is becase there is a percieved or actual threat to someone's life". I can't tell you how many times I have seen the wasted resources of EMS having to respond to a bloody nose or to pick up another drunk or a broken toe, etc. I am not downplaying the importance of EMS at all, but every call you go on is not the end all, be all, of emergency response. Lets face it we are all important agencies and response time is key in all facets of emergency response, FD, PD, and EMS. If the system isn't working then lets work together and find one that does.

Date: 04-3-06 Time: 1300hrs Location: 735 Canal St. -Building 15 X Pacific St/Henry St. Frequency: 154.130/800 TRS Units Operating: E-1, E-2, E-3, E-4, E-5, E-6, E-7 (Springdale), E-8, E-9; T-1, T-2, T-3, T-45 (Belltown); R1 (Using R-2); DC-4; EMS Medic 1, 3; 901 (SEMS Supervisor) Unit 91 (Rehab and Comm.); Stamford Police. ** Description Of Incident: Fully involved former Yale & Towne property, a 1 and 2-story warehouse occupied by (5) commercial properties: Boss Hoss Motorcycles, Haller Piano, E.J. Kassery & Co. Polishing, Stamford Antiques Center, Inc. Writer: Jason762, 242steve, tbendick (O/S), Truck4 (O/S) 1305hrs- E-1, E-4; T-1, T-2 responding to 735 Canal St for the report of a chemical fire. 1308hrs- E-1 O/S reports a working fire on Pacific St. side of complex. E-2 and R-1 cleared up from another box and are responding. 1st Alarm: E-1, E-4, E-2; T-1, T-2; R-1 1313hrs- E-1 requests a second alarm, reporting the building is fully involved. E5 2nd Alarm: E-5; T-3. Exposure 1- 2-story commercial with a 15-foot alley and a 2nd floor foot bridge. Exposure 2- Parking Lot (Pacific St. side) Exposure 3- 1-story commercial with a 20-foot alley Exposure 4- Parking Lot (Canal St. side) 1314hrs- E-7, E-32 (Glenbrook); T-45 (Belltown) relocating to Stamford Fire HQ 1323hrs- DC-4 requests a 3rd alarm. Off-duty callbacks in progress. Master stream operations underway. Exposure problem on exposure 1 side. Buildings are connected by an enclosed pedestrian bridge at the 2nd floor. 3rd Alarm: E-3; T-45 (Belltown). 1325hrs-DC-4 reports exterior op's only with all members accounted for. Very heavy fire conditions with (2) ladder pipes in operation on Pacific St. side (Exposure 2 side) and (1) deck gun in operation (Engine 2) in front. T-3 directed into the rear of the building from Canal St. to set up with E-5. 1330hrs- T-45 to set up on Canal St. side of the building. Turn of River and Belltown requested to cover their stations. 1340hrs- DC-4 requests a 4th alarm. Recall of off-duty manpower underway. Callapse of the interior and outer wall. 4th Alarm: E-7 1346hrs- E-63 (Turn of River) relocating to Stamford Station #3 (West Side). 1352hrs- Medic 91 (Rehab unit) responding. Medic 3 and Medic 1 already O/S. 1400hrs- Recall manpower to go in service with Engine 8 and Engine 9. Engine 7 laying in from Canal St. 1430hrs- Command requests a 5th alarm. Rpts co's having water pressure problems, contacting water company for assistance. E-8 req. to set up a drafting operation from the canal, through O & G Industries on Canal St. All available PD units responding to 7 Market St for evacuation of the area. 5th Alarm: E-8, E-9 1435hrs- Additional recall manpower to staff E-10. 1437hrs- CMD transmitting 6th Alarm. (3) ladder pipes and (1) Tower Ladder in operation with multiple handlines. No longer an exposure problem on Exposure 1 side. 1500hrs- Drafting operations underway with suppy lines into complex off Canal St. from Engine 8 and Engine 9. 1530hrs- Building has burned to the ground from the Pacific St. side to the Canal St. side (Antiques dealer). Still have (3) ladder pipes and (1) Tower Ladder in operation. Evacuated residents and media at Pacific X Henry. 1600hrs- Fire is darkening down, prolonged op's. **Station Coverage Station 1 (Main St) -E32, T31 (Glenbrook), E10 (SFRD Called-back Manpower) Station 2 (South End) -T20 (Noroton Heights), E51 (Greenwich) Station 3 (West Side) -E63 (Turn OF River), E8 (Greenwich) Station 5 (Woodside) -E602 (Turn OF River)

Here is how we do it and I believe most other career FD's in CT are close to the same process: The applicants must first have a valid CPAT card, then they are allowed to sit for the written exam. After they receive their rankings, the top (insert number here) are interviewed by the fire commission and FD top brass. After the interview process a conditional offer of emploment is given and the applicant goes through his/her medical screenings. At some point a background check is run. After the medical the new appointee, enters the fire academy.

OK, so I am going to agree with you on some points but disagree on others. First off I agree that in shape healthy FF's are key for not just FAST but any firefighting op's. Also I agree that most real life FAST op's turn into a cluster, this is sad but true. Also yes the trucks and equip. won't save a life but plentiful, competant, FF's might. With that said I disagree with not haveing any "gadgets". Some of these "gadgets" such as a pre-rigged hauling system, stokes basket, SCBA changeover/replenshing unit, will save time and possibly assist in saving a life. If FF's are trained in the proper use of this equipment, it can be very helpful. Also proactive FAST op's such as cutting off steel security bars, opening up means of egress, and throwing ladders early can also save a life. As for dragging a FF out, it is easier said than done. I'm sure you have done it in training as have I but that is normally under ideal conditions. Try it in high heat, structural collapse, or below grade situations. Talk to some guys that have performed these op's in real life, it doesn't go well. The trapped FF is in the position he's in because things are going very badly, you can't just waltz in, pick him up, and off you go. You make some good points, if we continue to train, critique past incidents and improve equipment maybe we can improve our chances of saving one of our own.

We have the Holmatro battery unit that was spoken of earlier on one of our engine companies and I can personally say I don't care for it. It is slow, underpowered, and unreliable. We have had problems with it when using it in the rain and unless battery maintenance is kept up the battery life is poor (like any other battery powered tool). We also do not have the problems of worrying about cars being deep into the woods and the associated portability issues of the standard extrication tools.

A basic size up should consist of the unit number that is arriving, the height of buidling (anything over about 6 stories can be reffered to as multi-story or high rise), type of construction (or closest educated guess based on similar buildings or pre-plans), type of occupancy (OMD, SFD, commercial, mercantile, mixed, etc.), and fire conditions found on arrival. Also any special or strange occurences can be relayed. There is no need to ramble on and on about every detai you see. Make mental notes of all the other details, COAL WAS WEALTH is not meant to be read over the radio. Most incoming companies should have a basic picture from this short size up, and should have a basic idea of what type of buildings are found in their districts and bordering districts. Keep it short and simple but give the pertinent details.