firemoose827

Very good points here as well.  I was basing my response on the fact that I live in a split level home, and my stairs are open to the lower level.  The garage is located right next to the stairs and even if the lower level were not entirely involved, it would still be impinging on the stairs and weakening them significantly.  I remember when I took the Building Construction course, the instructor stated it well; You need to know the building construction and fire behavior in order to get ahead of the fire.  If I were the first arriving officer I would look for a pass door into the lower level, on my house there is one next to the garage doors and one in back of the house as well, but a quick 360 would find that.  I would have sent the line through that door to attack the fire in the garage, clearly the room of origin as you stated.  If I knew for a fact that all the occupants were accounted for, then the attack goes through the basement door and I would see how conditions change before going through the front door on those stairs to check for extension.
Good points.  Just remember, there are a hundred tactics to use and a thousand tools to help us achieve them based on the departments equipment, initial response, conditions on arrival and response area.

Very good points here as well.  I was basing my response on the fact that I live in a split level home, and my stairs are open to the lower level.  The garage is located right next to the stairs and even if the lower level were not entirely involved, it would still be impinging on the stairs and weakening them significantly.  I remember when I took the Building Construction course, the instructor stated it well; You need to know the building construction and fire behavior in order to get ahead of the fire.  If I were the first arriving officer I would look for a pass door into the lower level, on my house there is one next to the garage doors and one in back of the house as well, but a quick 360 would find that.  I would have sent the line through that door to attack the fire in the garage, clearly the room of origin as you stated.  If I knew for a fact that all the occupants were accounted for, then the attack goes through the basement door and I would see how conditions change before going through the front door on those stairs to check for extension.
Good points.  Just remember, there are a hundred tactics to use and a thousand tools to help us achieve them based on the departments equipment, initial response, conditions on arrival and response area.

Just a friendly bump to remind people to "Like" posts. Why? Read the posts above.

I gave you a like, Jim, because it's definitely something that's gone to the wayside. A lot of members won't reply to posts, and then they get to the point where they read and just move on. It's like looking at Facebook all day....eventually you just see a few posts and move on. But sometimes there's a great topic and some awesome information that comes across the threads, and no one acknowledges that they were there, that they read anything! I'm just as guilty of this, as sometimes I'm just catching up on things or just reading a few threads before I have to run out the door.
But, you're right. We should be acknowledging each other a little more with that tiny blue button in the lower left corner.

I notice fewer & fewer people using the "Like This" button, now of course everyone is not going to "Like" everything but consider the contribution the person made to the topic.
As an example if a person creates an "Incident Alert" and they really take the time to put some details in the story please consider giving them some credit. I have seen some people who no longer post them because it appears no one cares.
If people post some photos of an incident and you like them let them know by hitting that "Like" button.
Good conversation started or comments you agree with in a topic give them some credit hit the button.
Just my opinion
Jim

I disagree with the conclusion that "the whole lower level is well involved" based on the fire showing from the garage and that the handline should have gone thru the garage first.  If you look at the beginning of the first video, just before and after that engine arrives, there is fire burning around the garage doors, but there is no fire at the front door and no visible fire and limited smoke from the downstairs window to the right.  The whole lower level is clearly not what I'd consider to be "well involved".
 
To me, based on that assessment, the area of origin is more than likely the garage and actual fire does not appear to spread much yet.  Smoke yes, fire not so much.  Conditions on the upper floor seem like they could still be survivable for any occupants (not sure what the occupancy information they had was).  Looking at the videos a few times, it kind of looked like the fire spread to the front door area may have been an exterior spread from the garage rather than the interior burning thru.  While the garage certainly needs addressed, getting thru the garage doors is likely going to take a few minutes to do anything other than flow water from the driveway.
 
As such, my first line would be hitting the visible fire from the garage and then attempting to make entry thru the front door in attempt to cut off the fire spread and protect the stairs for a quick search of the bedrooms over the garage.  As manpower would allow, other personnel would simultaneously get to work on removal of the garage doors while the 2nd line supports that work (Ideally, you create an opening large enough to flow water thru in the one door to hold the fire in check some while working on removal of the other door.).
 
Given how choppy the video editing is, it's hard to get a good sense of the timing of the obvious fire spread that occurs.  So, it's hard to tell for sure if conditions would allow for sustained interior operations, but it might be long enough to at least make a quick search.
 
 

This has been a fascinating thread. I've watched the video 4 or 5 times. Many different good points were made. It proves that there is no one perfect way to attack a fire. Here's my idea, which I thought of the first time I saw the video.
 
I would order an 1 3/4 inch stretched to the garage door. I would then order one of the upper panels on the garage door pulled down, probably a halligan & a pike pole would do the trick. I would then direct the hoseline into that opening for 30 seconds to a minute. In the confined space of the garage the fire should get knocked down quickly with the steam generated. I am a firm believer that you need to knock down the main body of fire which is generating the most heat and the most BTU's. The other advantage to this tactic is that the steam will follow the flow pattern of the smoke and hopefully will help stop the hidden fire spread. I wouldn't be too worried about steam generated affecting any victims, because either they got out of the house or are unconscious on a bed or the floor. Any steam that settles to the floor level will be somewhat cooled.
 
After the quick application of water into the garage, I'd wait a minute or two to see what was happening with the fire and smoke. I wouldn't commit anyone yet, but I'd order the hose stretched to the front door and prepare for entry, I would order 2 ladders set up for secondary means of egress, and I'd assign someone to the back of the house to give me a report on what they see.
 
Assuming the heavy fire in the garage was darkened down and the smoke emitting from the house began turning lighter in color, I would then order the line into the front door for fire control & extinguishment while searches and ventilation went on. If things seemed to be going well, I'd then order the garage doors removed to complete fire extinguishment in the garage. 
 
 

I think an important aspect to remember here is it is a split level home.  The amount of fire showing from the garage indicates to me that the whole lower level is well involved, that handline should have went in through the garage, not the stairs which had heavy fire conditions directly underneath them.  I live in a split level, and my stairs are open to the lower level, so any fire involvement would weaken those stairs pretty significantly.  
I believe a quick attack through the garage would have knocked down the fire quickly enough to control it.

I think an important aspect to remember here is it is a split level home.  The amount of fire showing from the garage indicates to me that the whole lower level is well involved, that handline should have went in through the garage, not the stairs which had heavy fire conditions directly underneath them.  I live in a split level, and my stairs are open to the lower level, so any fire involvement would weaken those stairs pretty significantly.  
I believe a quick attack through the garage would have knocked down the fire quickly enough to control it.

I've been pretty silent on this issue for awhile, but this is getting pretty out of hand.  Just a a disclaimer, I am a Firefighter at a 100% volunteer house. Since our company made the decision to go 100% volunteer 2 1/2 years ago, we have been staffed with volunteers only 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, averaging about 6 men on duty at a time. So nobody can claim that I drink any IAFF Kool-Aid... I'm simply going to make my point on the basis of public safety only.
 
Port Chester's decision to lay off the eight career Firefighters was just plain stupid. By PC's own admission, Port Chester has only 150 active, interior-qualified volunteers (though I've heard the actual number may be half that, but I'll take them at face value) to staff 7 companies. Dividing those evenly, we're looking at around 21 volunteers per company. I'd assume most of these people have day jobs, and to my knowledge PC volunteers do not have live-in members who provide daytime staffing, so realistically, how many guys get on the road during the day for a call? How can anyone argue that response times will NOT go up?  It's just simple math, folks. In most places, the volunteer model will not provide the same level of protection that a combination model will.
 
If the accusation that the Chief ordered his men to damage the house is true, the Chief (and any volunteers who followed that obviously illegal order) should be removed, and criminal charges should be considered. "Firefighters" who pull that kind of crap have no business wearing the uniform. People like that are the reason volunteers are treated like second-rate Firefighters in so much of the country.
 
The PCFD Volunteers need to make a decision regarding their leadership. I really hope they have some Line Officers who are considering running against the Chiefs and fixing this mess. It's not about career or volunteer, it's about the service you provide to the public.

 
"FD7807", I think you missed some of the questions.
 
  1) How would eliminating career firefighters NOT have an affect on public safety ?
 
  2) How does a group of union firefighters make this sound so risky and I assume you feel it shouldn't be ?
 
 Your latest response however is exactly the kind of response I would expect. A little self gratification by telling us you work 60 hours a week. Do you get paid for that time ? I would just guess that 20 of those hours are rated at time and a half.  I would hope you have enough to buy yourself that fresh new blue light. Yet you still make 100 FD calls and 100 training hours. I'm guessing again, that is in one year. Did you ever wonder how many FD calls the average career firefighter makes in one year ? Or did you ever think of the number of training hours those career firefighters spend in one year ? The same kind of career firefighters that you believe has no impact on the publics safety if taken away.
 
  "FD7807", I'm not talking about watching Chicago Fire on demand or Belly Bumps. What I am talking about is the reality of todays fire service. The one that so many of us tend to depend on.
 
 One more question from one of those "Keyboard Firefighters" if I may. Is it safe for us to assume that you NEVER took any exam for a career firefighter ? You never had any interest in doing that job at all. You are very happy as it is, working your 60 hours a week and doing your 100 FD calls and 100 training hours. Only you would know the real answer to that.
 
  But I bet you didn't know this. That as a little hobby of mine I spent time helping young volunteer firefighters that wanted to become career firefighters. And I wasn't the only career firefighter doing it. There was an entire group of us all from career departments in Connecticut. We helped them with the written, the oral etc. and because those young guys really pushed themselves and worked hard, most got on a career fire dept somewhere. Today they thank us. But "THEY" were the ones that really did it. And I must say that I think those career depts. got the best of the best.
 
Sorry for getting off track here, but I just thought it was a pretty good story to tell. And by the way, they were ALL UNION FIREFIGHTERS and they did it all for FREE. No charge at all.

Thank you, I am now logged on to my original membership.  Thanks.

Replied to your PM. Sorry for the delay.

Barry that's more like a hostage situation

Happy retirement. One of the good memories I have is the Christmas eve ride along with you a few years ago. I appreciated the opportunity.

Well guys after 43 years as a Port Chester Firefighter [ 18 years very active volunteer working at DPW then getting the dream job getting paid to do what I love to do this is my last day. It didn't end the way I wanted it too but away I go . I was fortunate to catch the war years when we went out every day for a job worked side by side with many dept.'s and made a lot of life long friends on mutual aid. I saw a lot of death and sorrow [ Gulliver's 24 DOA Stouffer's 26 DOA 9/11 world trade center ] and saved a few along the way but my greatest call was closing a large window [ life savers building ] for a 84 year old lady who was freezing because her window was open and she needed help. The next day she baked a apple pie for me and my partner. So I say good bye to it all and hope that I left a small mark somewhere. To my 2 sons that are following or trying to follow in my foot step's keep up the good work in this most rewarding profession . Good luck to the guy's that are left on my job and hope that thing's get better for you and the people we were sworn to protect.
Angelo Sposta [ Retired Local #1971 ]

Sort of like the old kitchen table quote. Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. They can go on TV and try to spin this any which way they please. The facts are indisputable. A gang member from Baltimore shot and killed his girlfriend ( most likely because she was going to out him on his plan ) and headed to NYC to " put wings on pigs today ". I can see the cover of the Times tomorrow. Ismaaiyl Brinsley was a good kid who was only weeks away from attending community college to get his life in order. He was active in his community ( selling crack to the community ) and a role model ( to the kids they hire to sell the crack ). His mother Ms Not his last name and father Mr not his last name ( because he a was being raised by his Aunt ) can't understand what went wrong in his life and can't believe those cops chased their son down the subway and shot him ( he would never kill himself ). Lets blame everyone in society for our problems and not look in the mirror and hold ourselves accountable. WHAT A TRAGEDY IN ALL ASPECTS OF THIS STORY. THANK YOU PRESIDENT OBAMA, MAYOR DEBLASIO, AL SHARPTON ( I refuse to use Rev in front of his name ) JESSE JACKSON AND ALL OF THE HATE SPEWING RACIST LEADERS IN THIS COUNTRY!!!!

At some point when you finalize the SOP for your Department, could you post it as an example/reference? We have a Day Crew Monday - Friday 6 AM-6PM, and some of them have taken the Tactical Medic training, and some more may as time goes on, so at least they are gaining some experience on that side and would definitely jump right in to manage the situation if one happens. Warm zone operations need to be prepared to receive/retrieve possible PD first responder victims as well as other responders and civilians, so it is always good to have a plan ready for most possibilities. I am reading what I can on it and hope will properly do what needs to be done if called on. Unfortunately, not enough EMS people took advantage of the in-house Tourniquet/Quik Clot bandaging class and the one held at the hospital, both of which had good hands-on practice, so if anything happens during the volunteer staffing time, it could be hit-or-miss as to the crew and their/our experience with that part. Our Chief tries to be proactive - just has to get the rest, or more of us, in line.
P.S. Sage may not be EMS, but with his training, if he was in town that day, I would absolutely want him with us.

I respect the hell out of our brother and sister police officers and I have no issue with any of them attempting to make a rescue if the opportunity presents itself. But I do have one issue, and I can monday morning quarterback this particular incident I am about to discuss because it happened in my district and I was first IC, then operations for the incident.
My issue is this; we were requested to respond to a residence for "Excellerant spilled in the residence" (exactly how dispatch gave it to us). When I got on the radio and stated I was enroute I asked for more information, they simply repeated the original, stating that there was some type of excellerant spilled in the residence, nothing further. So I wrote it off to being a fuel oil tank leaking in the basement or maybe someone accidentally spilled some gas in the garage or something......BOY was I wrong.
I pulled up to the scene in our first due engine/tanker to a scene loaded with state troopers. I get out and approach the one trooper and he tells me there is a woman inside doused in gasoline and threatening to light herself if they went in to get her. I FLIPPED out, and told the trooper we should all evacuate to a safe distance based on the fact the house was FILLED with gas fumes and was explosive (if the LEL was right) but we were taking no chances.
This trooper failed to give us all of the information when we were dispatched, and we should have been staging on the road until the trooper negotiator talked her out or worse...They allowed us to drive right up to the scene and park next to the house in a circular driveway and said nothing to us. My panties are in a bunch as well and I will also not get over it. And this is odd for my area because we have a great working relationship with all of the LE agencies in the county and have always worked well together. Why did they fail to give us appropriate notice and give us all of the information, even if it was over the cell phone? We could have all been killed, blown away.

OK - So what about the Guardian Angel ice sculpture? I have seen that image on apparatus. The angel is a religious symbol. Anyway the story said that the department bought the truck as a demo, so it already had the mural on it. If they paid to have the mural removed, someone would find fault with that. It is becoming a sad commentary on the state of our society where a perceived religious image can cause such a controversy, however someone can blast music full of expletives, talking about beating women and killing cops in a public area where there are families and children and that is considered acceptable. IMO - bottom line, I don't care what religion you are, what race you are, what sex you are, what sexual orientation you are, as long as you have my back when it starts getting hairy because I will still have yours.

I'm not PC nor am I religious. But the words "separation of church and state" can be found nowhere in the Constitution. The First Amendment was intended to keep government out of religion, not religion out of government. Jefferson, Madison, Fanklin, et. al. would be horrified to see how today's radical atheists, along with legislating judges; have subverted the meaning of the First Amendment.
They say that there are no atheists in foxholes. Emergency responders are constantly in "foxholes."

Moose: if you look in the Montgomery Co. study, they found when it came to interior operations the radio strap under the coat (with radio outside) had greater signal strength. This doesn't account for standing upright and outside, but worn properly, the radio and it's antenna should be outside the coat at the waist line and its hard to imagine that when an antenna is oriented vertically the 12-24" between the waist and chest would have a significant impact on signal strength. The difference on the interior personnel is that the radio strap allows the radio to self-orient the antenna vertical, whereas the radio pocket places the antenna in a horizontal and reportedly less desirable position for signal strength. This is why members must fully understand anything before implementing the idea. Proper adjustment is necessary to ensure the benefits are realized.

Send that one to firefighter close calls moose. Gotta be careful these days. From what I'm gathering in your post she seems like she will fit into the FD well.

It's not always just about looking good. Retired BC John Salka wrote a great article about polishing the brass, how as a probie it was an important task to be performed regularly. Not only did it look good, helping with company pride, but it also indirectly helped familiarize the probie with exactly where everything was on the rig, and what it was used for.