firemoose827

Very good points here as well. I was basing my response on the fact that I live in a split level home, and my stairs are open to the lower level. The garage is located right next to the stairs and even if the lower level were not entirely involved, it would still be impinging on the stairs and weakening them significantly. I remember when I took the Building Construction course, the instructor stated it well; You need to know the building construction and fire behavior in order to get ahead of the fire. If I were the first arriving officer I would look for a pass door into the lower level, on my house there is one next to the garage doors and one in back of the house as well, but a quick 360 would find that. I would have sent the line through that door to attack the fire in the garage, clearly the room of origin as you stated. If I knew for a fact that all the occupants were accounted for, then the attack goes through the basement door and I would see how conditions change before going through the front door on those stairs to check for extension. Good points. Just remember, there are a hundred tactics to use and a thousand tools to help us achieve them based on the departments equipment, initial response, conditions on arrival and response area.

I think an important aspect to remember here is it is a split level home. The amount of fire showing from the garage indicates to me that the whole lower level is well involved, that handline should have went in through the garage, not the stairs which had heavy fire conditions directly underneath them. I live in a split level, and my stairs are open to the lower level, so any fire involvement would weaken those stairs pretty significantly. I believe a quick attack through the garage would have knocked down the fire quickly enough to control it.

Sorry to hear about this Rob, I will send prayers your way daily. Keep us posted.

Every decent fire prevention program will always target any trouble areas in their district, the real challenge is being able to catch these trouble areas, and making the people USE the detectors. Like someone mentioned, you hear the low battery beeps everywhere and that's because they refuse to replace the battery until its too late. They would rather spend the money on beer and other things than a few batteries and its sad. You can lead a horse to water but unfortunately you cant force them to drink it.

Thank you, I am now logged on to my original membership. Thanks.

Happy retirement. One of the good memories I have is the Christmas eve ride along with you a few years ago. I appreciated the opportunity.

I'm glad you said this. I know of a guy with a bad hip, can't even walk right let alone crawl, and he was allowed as interior...recently he failed his physical and was labeled an exterior firefighter only. What did they do? Why, make him lieutenant of course.

Sueg, I will gladly post them when they are approved and accepted. They are done now, but just in draft and have not been reviewed by the officers, commissioners and membership yet. It will be interesting to see the different aspects of different SOP's from different response areas and populations. Like in my area, we are about 3.9 square miles of territory with about 3,000 people (2010 Census). Ours as they stand now before being changed and altered and then approved are about 2 and a half pages. I bet there could be some areas with larger populations and bigger call volumes that probably have triple the amount of pages. Does anyone have an SOP already written and enforced?

How many departments out there have SOP or SOG's written for either active shooter, or domestic violence incidents? I ask seriously, because our county is in the process of developing a training for these type of incidents and our department was the testing agency for the draft class written by our past chief now county deputy fire coordinator and SFI. It was a great class and it discussed having written policies for these incidents. After the class my chief approached me and asked if I would be willing to write an SOP for our department. I have a draft written and would be interested to see other SOP's that might exist to compare. Thanks in advance.

I agree. Picking up a portable pond and putting it away or picking up thousands of feet of 5 inch hose....hmmmm.... We do a lot of tanker shuttle work, we have no water distribution system at all in my town so therefore we have no hydrants. We have about 4 dry-hydrants located in different areas of our town and other drafting sites we use with good results. We usually call for tankers fast and furious, and when we get 4 or 5 tankers rolling we can usually keep up a good fire flow, un-interrupted. We also use 5" hose sometimes if there is a pond or good size stream on the property, but when it comes time to pick it up all of the mutual aid manpower has disappeared...amazingly enough....and no one is there to help...

I respect the hell out of our brother and sister police officers and I have no issue with any of them attempting to make a rescue if the opportunity presents itself. But I do have one issue, and I can monday morning quarterback this particular incident I am about to discuss because it happened in my district and I was first IC, then operations for the incident. My issue is this; we were requested to respond to a residence for "Excellerant spilled in the residence" (exactly how dispatch gave it to us). When I got on the radio and stated I was enroute I asked for more information, they simply repeated the original, stating that there was some type of excellerant spilled in the residence, nothing further. So I wrote it off to being a fuel oil tank leaking in the basement or maybe someone accidentally spilled some gas in the garage or something......BOY was I wrong. I pulled up to the scene in our first due engine/tanker to a scene loaded with state troopers. I get out and approach the one trooper and he tells me there is a woman inside doused in gasoline and threatening to light herself if they went in to get her. I FLIPPED out, and told the trooper we should all evacuate to a safe distance based on the fact the house was FILLED with gas fumes and was explosive (if the LEL was right) but we were taking no chances. This trooper failed to give us all of the information when we were dispatched, and we should have been staging on the road until the trooper negotiator talked her out or worse...They allowed us to drive right up to the scene and park next to the house in a circular driveway and said nothing to us. My panties are in a bunch as well and I will also not get over it. And this is odd for my area because we have a great working relationship with all of the LE agencies in the county and have always worked well together. Why did they fail to give us appropriate notice and give us all of the information, even if it was over the cell phone? We could have all been killed, blown away.

Wow. I found that wearing the radio on the strap under the coat takes away some of the strength of the signal. But then again I am in cow country with a lot of comms problems. Some times I am hoding my portable up in the air while talking, with one leg extended, and a halligan in the other hand...only works some times. We wear them in the radio pocket all the time with the mic clipped to the collar tab.

Rest in Peace, thoughts and prayers to all involved.

I can relate to this. Had a big fire in our mutual aid departments district a week ago, and while we were responding in the back of our rescue truck getting our gear on, one of the probies who just finished her FF1 class got her air pack on and then turned her back to me and said out loud "Turn me on". I smiled and said "Hey sure, but arent you married?" It was one of those moments you realised what you were saying...as you were saying it...and wished you could take it back...but fortunately she laughed and joked back with me and the others laughed too. I was thankful she didnt scream sexual harrassment or cry to the chief about it. But thats what we are supposed to do in the fire service, joke around with each other and break balls, it is how you know someone isnt mad at you. Like someone else said its when you are not getting your balls busted you should be worried. I agree though.

I myself have gone through and are still dealing with issues from the past calls. I did the wrong thing and held it inside, now I am paying for it. I was thinking about how to reach out to others so they dont do the same thing I did. This is a perfect idea for us, as a support to those that need to talk. I am open to talk to people who need to, just contact me. There is also a web site I used to belong to and forgot the whole name, but it was counselors, FD Chaplains and Salvation Army personnel that were reaching out to first responders as an avenue to vent and talk about things they see on calls. I believe it was "Emergency and Disaster Responders" or something similar. I will look it up and have it for those that want to check it out. I feel we need to talk about stuff with others that have gone through it, its better than trying to explain it to someone with no experience and still get any help...when they have no clue its hard to help. Good idea.

Quotes from NYSAFC Reference Guide for each organization. Fire District above, and Fire Protection District Below...

Sore subject with me brother, can I please vent a little to all of you?? We had our "popularity contest" (elections) last Monday night. I have been serving for the past three years; 2 as Captain and one as assist chief which I held proudly. This past year, our two captains finaly finished their FF1 training, one even took the FF2 as well (thats right folks we had 2 captains serving without basic training. They based their qualifications on being able to work all equipment and knowing the department...) This year for nominations one of the two Captains and another member were nominated over me for 1st assistant, I was nominated for nothing. The other current Captain was nom for 2nd asst. Both current Captains have no officers training and very little if any experience as interior firefighters. I was beat out by someone fresh out of FF1 with no experience all because I was making a push to change things, focus more on safety and upgrading equipment and the department obviously didnt like that so they voted me out. That bothers me, and the more I make a stink about it the more they get in my face and tell me its done so live with it. Another more experienced member 35 years in the service made inquiries into their training records and they have next to nothing besides FF1 and 2 yet our SOP's require FF1 with 5 years in the department, EVOC, Haz-Mat Ops, FBAA/Principles, and at least 2-3 officers courses like NIMS 700, ICS 100, 200 etc etc. They have none of these. Who can I contact that would get the best results to fix this issue? FASNY? OFPC (or do they even handle stuff like this) local government? State government? It realy sucks too since we just moved into our first house, in this district so I cant move to another area with a better department... Sorry for the rant, just realy bothers me to no end...this backwoods redneck volunteer we-dont-have-to-follow-the-rules BS thats going to kill someone if not changed....help.

This is exactly what concerns me with this new assist chief...hes very inexperienced and has no Haz-Mat, AVET or rescue training so if he rolls to an MVA MCI incident with multiple injuries, a few fatalities, and multiple people yelling for him to do something...I dont see him making the right decisions and that could hurt our department, the people we serve and even hurt him in the long run. We cover a dangerous section of State Route 20, with two lane sections and hills and turns...we have a fatal a year on this road and we do extricate quite more than I would like to. Yet now we have officers, of whom only one or two actually have the AVET to make life or death decisions regarding extrication. Fires...I dont feel like they will be able to make those decisions for fires either, even though he has Level 2 firefighter now, he still has not gone out with that training and applied it with officers and senior firefighers and gained real time experience at real fires and MVA's and rescue calls...he wont be able to do it. And I am worried about him too, not just the people. If he makes bad decisions and ends up killing someone, especially one of our own, he will have to live with it the rest of his life and he wont be the same firefighter he could have been with the right experience in the right time frame... But, he was around a lot, showed up to drills and worknights, was fee during the week day a lot to run rigs for inspections and maintenance so he buttered up to the chief. His mother was our chief for a few years as well so that helped him too. So he got voted in and other more experienced and trained people did not...The system is beyond broken and beyond repair, it needs a total overhaul.

The Point System seems to be a mixed feeling from most of you and I was wondering about that myself. The department I was in on Long Island had the point system and it worked well. You got points for calls, drills, meetings, fundraisers, state training classes and or seminars, and yu needed to get like 250 points in the fiscal year to be considered a "Member in Good Standing". If you met this, had all of the essential training, the time served in the department and qualification on all equipment you were placed in a roster of available candidates to be nominated as Lieutenant. You were voted on for Lieutenant and then did 2 years, moved up to 1st Lieutenant for 2 years, then Captain for 2 years (in two companies; Engine and Ladder) then each Captain was eligible to run for department assistant chief. The loser became an "Ex-Captain" which held as much weight and seniority as captain on fire scenes, and you were automatically entered into the asst chief race every year. You then served 2 years as each assistant, then 2 as chief, then your out...you cant run for office again for atleast 5 years and even then you have to get nominated. Training was taken seriously, qualifications and experience were respected in the firehouse and on the fire scene, if there were no chief or line officers on scene the "Ex-Captains" were IC's and respected, as well as "Ex-Chiefs". Brothers respected brothers, the right person with the right qualifications were chosen for the office no questions asked...then I moved upstate... Its night and day difference between the two areas. I wish I could institute the point system here but they treat it like the plague and avoid it at all costs. Stay safe.

The one thing about this requirement is its an older one from the days of Essentials of Firemenship. Our SOP's need to be updated. First off, this wasnt a case of "two equals" who ran against each other an I lost fair and square. I have 25 years, Level II FF and Haz-Mat Tech and a bunch of other stuff that I refresh every 3-5 years. I work hard around the firehouse and always do the work myself instead of make others do it. If there is a work detail I am right in the mix working instead of sitting in the chiefs office "doing paperwork". I work hard to make the others safe, and happy. I got an engine donated to our department just to have them turn it down, now we are dealing with a crappy engine. I got a grant for the department which got us our first TIC and a better 4-gas meter. I ran and worked several fund raisers and have more in the works with minimal help. This guy has been in the dept for about 8 years but was not active due to health reasons. He recently got his health in check and took FF1 while serving as captain. Mind you; he has no experience as an interior firefighter other than the live burns at the training tower for FF1 class. The department feels he would be a better chief because his mother was a chief a few years ago. So...its all about who you know in my department and not about dedication to the department, training and experience. There are no excuses being made on my end and I am simply venting to my peers when I say I am leaving the deparment. I am staying, and I will make a stink this year at meetings to request that the SOP's get updated and new officers requirements get written by our fire commissioners. I will work to make things better. Guess a firefighter cant vent to his "family" or his "brothers" anymore. To all of you that offered advice and comments thank you, I have taken it all and will use it. Not only that but the support you showed, whether for or against me, empowers me to do what needs to be done and I thank you all. Thanks again and stay safe.

I would LOVE to see testing requirements for officer positions in volunteer departments ON TOP OF certain other requirements like age requirements, years service as at least FF1 level, officers training requirements like fire officer 1 or 2 AND ICS courses 100, 200, 300, 400, 700, and 800. Other training requirements should be mandatory as well such as AVET, Haz-Mat (at leat 1st responder level), rescue tech basic, Incident Safety Officer, FAST and Firefighter Survival, Pump Ops, Ladder Ops, FBAA and Principles of Investigation among a few, but that would just serve to piss off more cry babies that would complain about the training hours needed and time away from home and family...BUT, if there were a huge structure fire where you spend a day or two away from home that is never a problem...just the training hours...

Oh and there's more... This department I am in is one of the only departments I know of that allow ladies auxilliary and squad only people to vote for fire officers....I have been in 4 departments, all of the other 3 had only firefighters allowed to vote on department business. Ladies had their own meetings, as well as the rescue squad because there were people who only wanted to be on the squad and not the fire department so they had their own business meetings. This dept allows ALL of them to vote for officers, and any department business such as purchases of equipment. That is where my comment above regarding voting on someone because they wear their hat better or are more handsome than the other came from... Im seriously thinking of making a move to my 5th department, but it all relies on whether or not my nearest MA department will accept me as a transfer...one can only hope...

Sorry to Mark for hi-jacking his thread on elections in the area. I split the topic and created a new one so we can continue the discussion without taking away from the original intent. Thanks and sorry again Mark. http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/49837-elections-and-officers-requirements/#entry286296

I agree with you. I have been in the fire service for 25 years now and have been a level 2 firefighter for about 15 years. I am a Haz-Mat Tech Basic, National and State certified fire investigator, and I have a training file about an inch thick or more...yet a guy fresh out of FF1 gets 1st asst chief... I take pride in the fire service and try to uphold the traditions and laws, but its hard when you are one of the few that do that still. I remember when a FF fresh out of basic had to wait to be addressed before they could speak at meetings and such, or when I as a Junior Firefighter had to stand at attention when the chief walked into the room. When senior firefighters spoke, everyone else shut their yaps and listened or got slapped upside the head. When an officer gave an order at a fire scene it was carried out regardless of your training or experience...you did it (unless it was blatently dangerous). Today...these young members get FF1 and start to get big heads and big ideas and visions of glamour and fame and they run their mouths at drills, calls and meetings, disrespect senior members and officers....I even had a guy argue with me in front of the home owner while pumping out their basement...ARGUE with me?!?!?! One of the senior guys/fire commissioners yelled at him and said "a senior fire officer has given an order and you will follow it!!!" Its getting dangerous...in my area there are MULTIPLE chiefs under the age of 25...But if those of us that can make changes all left the department, who will be left to make the necessary changes and fight for the tax payers and people that call 911? So I guess thats why I am staying, maybe lay low for a few months, then start to poke into things that will anger people...LOL

As an EX Officer...(yup, lost my population contest last monday night and I am a black hat again), I look at it like this; as I deploy the teams to do certain jobs, whether its stretch a line, vent the roof, do a search or whatever, I look to see that they do it correctly. Did they strectch the line the right path and the right size hose? Did they vent appropriate for the size of fire (Pop a few windows for small contained fires or place the right sized hole in the right location on the roof)? When extricating someone did they stabilize the vehicle right? Did they assess for dangers before beginning? Did they protect the patient from further harm? Did they use all PPE and use the tools safely? Its different for each officer, but I agree with the above comment; there was a time when chief was a respected term, they ran their fireground like it was supposed to be run and dished out punishment when and where it was due without worrying if it would "offend"someone and make them quit the department or file law suits against them...I saw a fire chief from a mutual aid department once that I respected well enough before this incident and a hell of a lot more after-take a guy that was putting up a ladder upside down and backwords and start ripping into him right there in front of his department and ours. The guy learned a lesson that day and he never did it again. We need leaders who will do whats right for the department and the community who rely on us to help them. Not a leader that will pamper their members to earn their "votes" come time for the population contest (Elections). Bottom line; a "Good Job" is one where the tactics used were appropriate, the teams acted with safety in mind, the incident was not allowed to grow any more and affect any more people, and there was no injuries to anyone, and all equipment and members made it back to the station in one piece. Good Job. Be Safe out there.