firemoose827

I have heard of the term "Fire Patrol" before, and have heard of this type of unit used in the city before, do they still use them? I remember reading a book about FDNY and reading about the "Fire Patrol" guys that do stuff like salvage work and assisting at scenes with filling bottles, is this accurate? If so, what about a title like this used for volunteer departments for exterior "helpers", and have "Fire Patrol" or some other tltle on their gear? Maybe even issue them jump suits and work gloves and construction helmets instead of turnouts, so while they are putting ladders up, moving hose around for MPO's or setting up portable tanks, picking up hose, or even doing some salvage work like boarding up windows and doors after the call they are both properly identified and protected for the work they are doing. My area is a nightmare for mutual aid. I have responded to the firehouse before (in my old dept) for a mutual aid structure fire, and as I am pulling into the station the rescue truck is responding. So I think to myself they have a full crew...wrong. They end up getting asked on the radio by the IC how many interiors they have and the driver says "One, with 3 explorers and 2 fire police.........." Our chief ended up ripping them a new southern region hole and it was mandated thereafter to have a crew of no less than 5 interior qualified firefighters when responding the rescue to a mutual aid fire. I have seen engines with seating for 5 leave the station with a driver and one firefighter with other firefighters just arriving at the station, instead of waiting they leave...why? Because they are so excited to get to the fire they just go...if anyone wants to know the reason why career guys dont call us for mutual aid there is a prime example, and I think they are 110% correct and support them completely. Instead of using common sense, some of us volunteers let the adrenaline take over and they dont think before reacting. In my department now, its the same rule; when we are called for manpower mutual aid to a working fire, our rescue is not to leave without at least 4 interior firefighters in the back. Otherwise, our engine/tanker, and engine are 2 seaters, so they are required to have the driver and at least one member to assist the operator for mutual aid calls, and for our own calls the engine needs an interior firefighter on board. I see the issue with the career guys calling for mutual aid from other career departments farther away and agree; they are leaving certain departments on their borders alone so they still have someone to call if another fire or major incident should happen...it should be a no brainer and I would actually see it as a complement to the department that they trust us to respond to other fires while they are working the first. You need to think about the big picture. These city departments usually have a lot of calls, if they were to use up all of the surrounding departments for one call, than the initial responding unit to the secondary call would have a big response time which could mean the difference between saving a life or not, or saving the house as well. We have had this discussion before, and I made a comment about having a career department get together with their neighboring volunteer department for training purposes, so the career chief knows what the volunteer department has as far as trained interior firefighters, and the firefighters all get to work together and know the strengths and weaknesses of each department. But a valid response was made in regard to the career department having to use OT in order to have all members come in for the drill with the volunteer department, and another about insurance coverage. I understand that now, but still feel that maybe the chief from the career department and his on-duty crew could meet with them one night and discuss things, and maybe get a feel for what the volunteer department has to offer? I feel that would be better than just simply giving up on the volunteer departments help alltogether. Just my thoughts and opinions though. I understand completely the need for trained backup and see why a career brother/sister would be weary about having an unknown volunteer crawling down behind him...will they have his back? Will they know what he will do to attack the fire and know best how to support him? Probably not. I have argued the lack of training in the volunteer side for years now and agree completely that we need a state mandate to increase our requirements for training standards. Until then, I will just continue to train as much as I can. Stay Safe.

Thank you Sage, I am going to attempt to set up a meeting, but trying to set up a meeting and actually getting people to attend and participate is another whole story! lol I was thinking of alarms, second alarm, third alarm etc, bu it my area its tough to do with fire districts and village fire departments. We could pre-plan for a 2nd alarm consisting of tankers and manpower from the next 2 closest available departments, and a 3rd bringing the same resources from the next two departments I guess. Might confuse and confound at first but everything new around me always does at first, but when they get used to it things settle down. (Until the next guy stirs the pot)

My county has the County Fire Coordinators who respond to any fire involving mutual aid. As everyone knows its the responsibility of these coordinators to "coordinate" mutual aid, fill in empty fire stations for coverage, and get whatever resources the IC is calling for to the scene, so the IC does not need to worry about it. But...I feel that the issue with who do you call for mutual aid extends to every sector, not just like you mentioned between a volunteer and paid department. I will usually go to the station if I hear a neighboring department get toned for a major fire, whether its a structure or brush, and I will start the tanker, get gear ready, and wait for the call...that usually never comes...Why? Because they call for the department that has more of their "Buddies" in it, or think our department does not have what they need. I feel there is a need to pre-plan the mutual aid you would need and let the coordinators, or even the dispatchers (if you set it up ahead of time with call cards or mutual aid tickets, whatever your county uses) call the closest, appropriate department to assist you. Too many IC's in my area call for the departments they "want" instead of the closest department, and it makes no sense. I have been to county training classes and overheard people talking during breaks, and saying some pretty nasty things about their neighboring department and that they would never call them for mutual aid. Im disgusted. Im a fairly new officer, with only about 4-5 years as line officer for 3 different departments (fire) and 5 years experience as line officer and captain for an EMS agency. When I respond to a call and find that I am first officer on scene and I am unsure about who would be closest, I generally ask for "The nearest available unit" to respond mutual aid. With the CAD systems today, that have the GIS capability and mileage from department to department its fairly easy for a dispatcher to find the closest department. Otherwise, I try to know my district and know who would be closer, and who would have the most direct route to the scene because there is one factor you need to think about in areas like mine, and thats how many mountains do they have to drive over, how many seasonal roads that might be closed or open, and what the roads are like between them and the scene. There are lots of winding curving steep hilly roads in my area and driving tankers over them is a nightmare. One department may be closer, but they would have to drive over rough hilly roads to get there whereas the next closest department may have a clear drive down a main road with just a few minutes extra drive time. In these cases, I ask for both to respond. There was a major main street fire in the district just to the south of us, a 10 minute drive from our station to the fire, and I sat at the station and watched them call every department around us, and they never called us. They called 2 departments that were 20-25 minutes away and never called us. We had 5 interior firefighters plus drivers for both our tanker and our engine but they never called...untill the end of the fire when they needed help to pick up hose. Think that was a slap in the face? I agree, mutual aid needs to be set up in advance and agreed upon by chief officers and county officials like the coordinators. I am thinking about setting up a meeting with the area fire chiefs and the coordinators to set something up for our department, if anyone has advice or ideas shoot them out, I would appreciate it.

Good job 129k. House saved? If so great stop too.

I Couldnt have worded it any better and felt the same way, so I salute this post and agree whole heartedly. Rest In Peace to the brother I never had the honor of meeting. I did just that and will hope to see everyone else do the same. Thoughts and prayers to his family and friends, I hope they find peace and comfort in their time of need.

Seth, Sorry to hear about your medical and personal issues brother. I sincerely hope they have fixed whatever you are suffering from and have no further issues. If there is anything I can do to help you or the site let me know, Im sure I can help being a past moderator. Good luck on finding a new job and a place to live, and I hope you are joined by your family soon. Keep us posted. Moose

Excellent articles, thank you for sharing. I have a drill scheduled for ventilation and coordinated attack coming up soon at my FD and this info along with any new findings from the FDNY tests will help make it more informative. I also have a friendly argument with an assistant chief who is adamantly against straight stream nozzles and prefers fog nozzles. I agree but I always play devils advocate and stir him up every time the discussion happens at our station .

Do you offer financing??? Thats a great camera, If I could afford it I would buy it, but sadly I am married...

Where I work, there was a house fire that killed 4 people in a Developmental Disability home, and the fire was caused by a cigarette put out in the mulch bed alongside the house, and it spread into the house up the siding and into the soffit just like this fire. It ran the whole attic before finally being noticed but by the time the staff could do anything the ceiling collapsed on some people. Today, we are pushing for heat detectors to be installed in all attic spaces and the installation of NFPA 13 "R" style residential sprinkler systems. We are also pushing for all fire alarm systems to be addressable to a central station monitoring agency. We use the Life Safety Code often as well. I hope that eventually contractors will see the light and think more about safety, and homeowners as well, the costs of installing a sprinkler system is nothing compared to saving the life of a family member and saving your home as well...

Yes, the CO's and inspections are handled by Codes Enforcement Officials through the local Village/Town/City building departments. NYS has just recently had its pilot training course offered at the Fire Academy for Level I Fire Inspector which was offered to a special group of members from both OFPC and OPWDD Fire Safety Representatives. As far as fire investigations, yes, the fire chief is responsible to determine the cause of every fire, in some instances with the assistance of the local county fire investigation teams. My counties is all volunteer, and have a mixed membership of county firefighters, sherrifs officers and state troopers all trained as NYS Level One Fire Investigators (Some have higher qualifications including our county deputy fire marshal who happens to be my assistant chief). We use the State Trooper Labarotory for any evidence analysis that needs to be done.

Correct me if I am wrong, and this is a sincere question for all and not a jab at 50-65; If you provide medical aid to patients, are'nt you required to be a certified BLSFR agency with a medical director? It sounds to me like you guys are providing aid to patients, so you should all be at least a basic EMT, and be required to be a certified response agency for legal reasons. Thanks in advance for all your input. I have always relied on friends that work in the local ER as nurses, or ER Technicians. If they go to other hospitals we rarely find out anything about their condition unless we ask a nurse or doc during another call when we get tot he ED. Most will tell us basic info so we know, but you will get the strict people who refuse to give out info, which is understandable in todays litigious society all suing each other. But most understand that we are just caring first responders who want to know if our patients made it or not.

The other point here that I feel should be made is that a lot of the membership comes from outside of Westchester County, so naming it "Westchester Emergency Services" would fail to include the members as a group and just make reference to those that are from there. I feel this site has gone farther than alot of us think, and we are growing daily. I also agree, EMTBravo is the name that brought Seth and the originals this far, might as well keep it that way. I agree with most of what you posted here efdcapt115 and feel it was very well put and professional. Your posts definitely reflect your expereince and knowledge in the fire service and its posts like yours from respected MOS like you that I look forward to reading every day, thank you and I hope you keep it up for those of us that want to learn. Stay Safe.

If someone wants to expand on their idea they are allowed to, thats why we are in america, you are free to do what you want (within the law). If you guys dont like it, and you are perfectly entitled to your opinions, than you can always leave. Yet here you are, posting on every topic that is made on the forums, complaining about the posts and the members... Guys...If you like the pictures and the IA's than stick with them, go and have your wet dreams while looking at pictures of fires and trucks, and dont post in the forums. (And I sincerely hope you are reading this post in 'Firehouse Kitchen Table Mode' and not taking it seriously because I respect the both of you and look forward to your posts.) Honestly, this is what upsets me the most...going on to Bravo quick during my lunch break only to see countless bashes about the site, from the SAME people, who are obviously unhappy about the changes to the site and the way things are moderated here. I want to read quality posts that enlighten, expand your mind and leave you thinking about things, or make you want to join the discussion in a positive way. But with all of these posts about the site, the owner, the moderators, and how its run...it feels like a dam junior high cafeteria instead of the firehouse kitchen table. Stick with what you like about the site the most and let the rest of us do the same and quit complaining... (see the smiley faces gang? This was meant to be in fun and make you all hopefully see what you are doing so we can get back to what the site is here for...thank you...have a good day...anyone watch the Ranger/Devils game the other night? )

Its funny you guys mention this. We just purchased a new Scott Eagle Attack TIC, and the salesman came out last Monday night to give us our training on the unit. We found out that our portable radios cause interference with this unit, it makes the screen freeze in some instances, and in others it goes fuzzy...BIG issue. The portables were about a foot away from the units when this happened. Is this a Scott Brand issue I wonder? We keep ours in the radio pocket on the turnout coats, and we also have the mic clip attachment above the pocket to keep the mic from falling and dangling. My biggest thing is the entanglement issue, I used to use the leather radio case with strap and just clipped the mic to the strap near my shoulder and this would always fall off and get caught on things. Heres an idea for you air pack manufacturing people, start thinking of an integrated radio pocket on the straps of the air packs with mic pockets as well to protect the radio from damage and still be able to use easily enough. (Just make sure I get a percentage of the profits when you get rich from my idea!! )

Good luck to your son during his service!

I would love to see a change and would work with any group collectively to start the ball rolling. I for one am tired of the argument between agencies...agencies who are supposed to be focused on the same thing, the person calling for help. Speaking fo myself, I do not, nor have I ever looked upon the career brothers/sisters with disdain. I look UP to them for advice and knowledge. I definitely do not look at the PD with any disdain either, in fact, its a known fact that when they show up to violent scenes with violent patients threatening the lives of our EMS crew I am the first one to hide behind them and then proceed to kiss their feet...(hey, they have the guns, not me!) Each one of us are an important link in the emergency services chain and need to band together to be effective; any one part of that chain becomes broken or separate and you get nothing. At work, I cooperate with the State OFPC and work with them in the field. We trained together and formed some tight bonds, as a result we work together and get the job done, we share info with each other and offer assistance which makes it easier to do our jobs, protecting the Developmentaly Disabled who can not speak for themselves and rely on others to protect them. We screw up and some defensless person(s) perish. I often wonder the same thing; why can we not band together in emergency services as we have banded together at my job?? Why can we not see the overall picture and try to achieve the same goals instead of trying to improve our images and standing over the others? Kinda feels like junior high all over again but instead of the Jocks, Nerds, and Punks you have Firefighters, EMS, and law enforcement all bullying each other... Im ready for change. Great thread and hopefully it doesnt get bumped out of importance by a thread dedicated to "whats in your turnouts?" or "what kind of light bar do you use?"

Great idea and I hope it helps them out. This is similar to our day time mutual aid plan with the 3 mutual aid departments that border us, we are toned out simultaneously for all fire calls in our district from the hours of 6AM-6PM, and the first unit on scene handles the call. The first officer on scene is IC regardless if they are from our mutual aid dept or not. We are getting equipment on scene faster this way WITH enough manpower to handle the call as well, and no ones ego gets in the way.

Agreed that not all situations will call for the equipment to assist with the lift and movement of the patient, but I am sure a respected officer like you knows the emergency scene is a constantly dynamic thing, always changing and new techniques are being created everyday to do the routine things. A simple thing like a scoop stretcher can be invaluable for the 300 pound man lying on the bathroom floor with little room to maneuver, allowing the crew to get the scoop under him and use the handles to lift him up and then carry him back to bed, as opposed to trying to lift him with other means. But then again a simple thing like a blanket can help out with a large person as well, depending on the situation at hand. I feel (In my area) that with all three agencies responding to some of the calls we have, you get that mixed variety of experience and styles and tools and techniques that can easily be used in most situations. In my old department, we had the village PD respond with us to all calls in the village, fire or EMS, so they can secure a scene, offer assistance with patients, control any crowds, or be an extra pair of hands. But most of the EMS crews were smaller, older people who couldnt lift, and with only one, possibly two village PD officers you would still need the extra help from FD for lift assists. The FD that covers my grandparents house are excellent, my grandparents are always falling and require help back up into their chairs, so their chief responds to the scene with the EMS crew and helps them lift, every time they get called there, and being that I live 20 minutes away from them that makes me feel good to know they do things like that. I guess that should be what matters though, and not who is helping or how they are doing it. Ironically, my FD had a lift assist last night with our EMS crew at 3AM, my back is sore today, but we had a large crew show up to help, had to turn a few away at the door.

I would agree, and add the fire department for the extra hands. EMS will not only evaluate for injuries, they also have more specialised patient transport equipment on the rig such as a scoop stretcher, stair chair, REEVES stretchers and all of that, and have more training in moving patients with the least possibility of further injuring them or the rescuers. Up by me it is generally the EMS crews that call for the lift assist from the FD and PD because a lot of the EMS vollies around here are either older, or have bad backs, and cant lift without help, so they call FD, the PD usually respond with the EMS crews for scene safety and to help out anyway. But again, its a simple fact of, after the patient is cleared medically by EMS and is given the ok to be moved, it all boils down to who has the strongest backs and who gets there the fastest, right?

That was an awesome playoffs in '94, I hope they do it again this year. I have not been able to watch a lot of hockey the past few years and remember turning on a game in the middle of the season and thinking to myself..."I have no idea who any of these guys are!!" The only one I was familiar with was Lundquist, but I hope the Rangers make it.

I agree, and the other thing is a lot of the DPW workers are volunteer firefighters, maybe not for the town/village they work in but for others, and are just trying to offer help if needed. The difference being they are "Offering" help and not freelancing, or forcing themselves on you. When I worked for the DPW for my previous Village I worked with another firefighter from our neighboring town and we would ride to some of the calls in my district together, and he would offer his help every time to my chief. Sometimes the chief would accept and have him run a pump or act as accountability officer, other times he would gratefully decline. I realy dont think its a big deal if people (trained people with experience) want to offer their help to other fire departments, EMS agencies or whatever. If more people were like that our population of "A" Holes would be smaller and maybe we would have less violence, racism, and hate????

I know him personally efdcapt115 and was joking around with him, hence the "LOL" i placed at the end of the reply, but I guess he doesnt know what "LOL" means... You can joke with some but not with others sadly. Laugh Out Loud.............It helps you feel better.

That was perhaps the most detailed, insightful response to a discussion I have seen on this forum in a long time, and I enjoyed reading it and learned a lot from it. This is why I am a member of these forums, to read excellent content like this. Kudos. (ran out of "likes" for the day otherwise I would have given you one, but will hit you up tomorrow!)

Well said, I would push the like button on this reply until my finger fell off but you are only allowed one per answer, well said and kudos to you sir. We are ALL family in this line of work.

I think its just a simple matter of everyone helping to achieve the same goal...helping someone in need, whats wrong with that? I believe your example is a bit far fetched and over dramatic, an electrician performing open heart surgery is no where near accurate enough to explain two state troopers answering a call of help from a local volunteer fire chief whom they probably know from working together in the field anyway and were all too happy to help. These guys held a hand line, outside the building, away from the heat and smoke, and allowed other trained firefighters to do the more important work in the hot zone such as overhaul, salvage, and final extinguishment. I think we are all over reacting a little here... Not for nothing, but in your previous post you were supporting the help offered you by the local PD when short handed, and now you are against it? Which side of the fence are you on here? LOL I agree with these comments, we are all here for the same reasons, helping others in their time of need. If I was working a large fire and operating exterior lines for hours and was asked by a local cop or state trooper if I needed help holding the line I would gratefully accept their help and guide them as to what they could do to help. On the flip side, If I saw a PD Officer getting attacked by a group of people, I would grab the nearest hard object and start swinging, or do WHATEVER I could to help them. I did just that one evening when working my FT EMS gig years ago. Our station is within minutes of the local SUNY campus, one evening we were jsut sitting down for dinner when the scanner came alive with a screaming SUNY cop saying he was being chased by a mob of college students through the quad and was calling for all available help from village PD and State Troopers. My partner and I jumped into our rig and started for the campus, lights and sirens blaring in hopes that the sirens would alert the students and make them run. When we arrived on scene, the SUNY cop was being held down and maced with his own mace by a group of 5 students. They saw us and ran away, giving us time to pull up next to the cop and pull him into our ambulance and drove away to safety before the kids realized it was only an EMS rig and tried to come and finish what they started. We flushed his eyes and took him to the local ER for evaluation. What would have happened to this guy if we didnt show up? What if we just simply said "To hell with that, our pizza will get cold."???? Does any of the law enforcement gang here think we did wrong and wish to tell us to do our jobs and let them do theirs or did we do the right thing?? We work together, we have to, no one else will help.