antiquefirelt

Absolutely!!

I think the key is to not be in the position that another unit will not be coming in to block you're bus. As I said we made a conscious decision that our crew was worth keeping around so we send an engine on every wreck. If they're not right behind the bus the ambulance blacks the scene and renders aid while using the ambulance as the buffer. Along comes the engine to block behind the bus to provide safety when loading. It's simple math, figure out what you'll need, get it on automatic dispatch cancel it enroute if you're all set. But why start out behind the 8 ball?

We ALWAYS get an engine to close traffic if our personnel are in the roadway at all. It is an automatic dispatch of the engine with EMS to the accident. Only if the EMS crew determines there is no road hazard will the engine be cancelled. Our EMS unit almost always arrives first and as the Engine is right behind (90%) the pull past and let the engine block the scene from the incoming direct while the ambulance front blocks teh other side. If the engine is delayed or in another town we cover the unit blocks the incoming direction by stopping short but is then blocked by an engine to ensure safety when loading the paitient. When we extended our EMS coverage into other towns we've demanded that they end an engine to every wreck or its a deal breaker. This is for the safety of our crew and the victims. Look at the number of responders stuck or 3+ car pile-ups which are usually ongoing events not simultaneous accidents.

I had to watch far enough to get his name as I could have sworn he was the Fire Chief in the next town over from us! Thank god it wasn't or I'd have to get a bunch of jokes and go pay him a visit. Damn that was funny.

Your statement is pretty much in conflict with everything being taught about responder safety. Any vehicle is a better buffer than none. My ambulances are much more disposable than the crews in them and if they are the only thing to act as a buffer then throw them away! A firetruck is certainly batter for the sheer mass that it presents minimizes the chance that it will be pushed into the original accident. Cop cars are not adequate buffers on roads with posted speed limits over a school zone (15 mph) as they get pushed around very easily.

Actually that was not a flashover or not conclusively anyway. Or at least you can not determine this from outside the structure. The fact that alot of superheated rich smoke ignites outside is often indicative that the fuel/air mixture has become just right. A flashover is when all surfaces and materials reach their ignition point "simultaneaously" and ignite. In this video we can only see the smoke and roof structure actaully burning. Striking advanced alarms on arrival is generally not a great idea, sucessive sure, but kumping alarms creates confusion and can cause the IC to be overwhelmed with incoming units requiring direction. Though I agree in theory and would rapidly and sucessively have raised this fire to a third alarm given our response guidelines.

OK I'll ask again: WHAT DO YOU LEARN? What can you say with with any assurance about flashover? 1. Can you say you know and have seen all the indicators? 2. Can you say at what point you would order your crew to bail? 3. Can you say how much penciling or water bursts you'll need to alleviate an impending flashover? I've seen a backdraft happen in a toaster oven, but I wouldn't say that its help me at all in the last 20 years of firefighting. Pretty impressive though and makes a good story.

Whoops! Sorry I missed that part! In that case: TOUGH SH*T!! To do anything else but immediately evacuate should be criminal. That's a great way to trash all the years of Fire Prevention and exit drills taught to the kids. We had a similar cold day alarm in December at a local elementary school, but they fully evaucuated and moved to a separated but adjoining school for shelter. We told the School that they had done exactly the right thing and that we were committed to responding and finding the cause as fast as possible to allow the kids back in.

NFPA 101 allows for schools to defer the required number of exit drills in inclement weather. If you need one per month you can conduct two a month in warmer months to prevent requiring the drill during poor conditions. Just like anything else you have to look at the greater good, the safety of the kids must come first. How cold was it? I know I'd be pissed if my kids were made to stay outside for a drill last week when the temp here never got above 10 F without the wind. Sure in a true emergency you have to suck it up, but how many of you huys cancel or modify your drill schedules for snow, rain or extereme hot or cold weather?

I must agree that the have radio must talk issue has become a huge factor. Everyone who is given a radio suddenly has a hieghtened level of self-importance. As for Chief's responding out of town: It is a trust issue as ALS pointed out. Our mistrust is ot with our personnel but rather some of the M/A chief's that insist on putting water in the vent hole, opposing hose streams, no EMS while crews are inside, and a general lack of true fireground experience. Are we perfect? Hell No!! but I know my personnel's limitations and would rather be the one to tell a chief he's crazy in some tactful manner than one of my Capts telling him to get bent we're not going up there if your going to deck gun the place. As IZZY stated our Chief's go to M/A fires to liasion with the IC or other sector officers and provide asssitance. Often we just stand back and watch. The Lt or Capt. will run the crew unless the A/C was the initial responding co. officer. Sadly being the only career dept. in the area we have ruffled feathers with some of the other depts. They think that because our guys are career they automatically think their better. This may have been the case a few years ago, but our guys now know to shut up no matter what, lest we not be invited to the dance again!! As for RIT assignments: A Chief Officer should be present.First a true utilization of the RIT may be the most dangerous situation the crew has ever faced. Secondly, the dept. who has the members trapped will be faced with many emotional firefighters who are worried about their brothers so maintaining a fully composed staff will be difficult. A fresh chief with some command presence can be a big help.

This is a problem in our area too. Everyone wants to go to the fire and the chief officer's have less rules to live by. Our department will gererally send 2 of 4 chiefs on the M/A job. One is generally the C of D who interfaces with the IC and the second is generally used as a sector officer in the area our company(ies) are operating. The second chief is generally the duty officer of the day and it is his choice to respond or send a Lt. with the Company. Two of the A/C's always go, I go if the C of D is not iimmediately enroute or is out of town. We are the only career dept. in our area so we like to have senior officers interfacing with the volunteer chief's to help smooth any ripples. Most of the vol. chiefs wouldn't ask a Lt. for help tactically but will call another chief over upon arrival.

I have to ask: You took Flashover training: WHAT DID YOU LEARN? Not my question originally but it's stuck with me since this training has been offered.

The only thing that might look unethical would be to bill for services when an insurance company is involved then not bill if the homeowner doesn't have insurance? This is the issue with many smaller towns that bill out of town residents but not residents. Of course this is a clear Medicare violation but not clear with other billable services. Our dept. is just beginning to bill other services for ALS responses and EMS mutual aid. This is in response to many services not being adequately funded to maintain paramedics or enough crew to staff a rig. At least one of the services is wholly volunteer and does not bill at all. They will be forced to start billing becuase they cannot afford to pay us $200 a whack for paramedic responses. Of course they have not had the funds to send their people to paramedic school or to retain paramedics in the their town either. Its not a good feeling for us, but our taxpayers cannot subsidize EMS throughout our county.

I'm pretty certain "Bill the Spiller" is Federally mandated, if you choose not too, you're losing money. The issue would be who has the right to bill. If you recieve all your equipment, consumables and payroll from the State, then they probably have to send the bill vs. the local dept. that is funded locally. Our Haz-Mat team bills the spiller for every run regardless of where it happens. If we respond, we bill, even outside our municipal boundries. As for ALS/BLS and insurance billing: If your service bills Medicare then all the rules are already made for you: what can be billed for, proper documentation, maximum amounts allowed (by region) for ALS, BLS and loaded miles. Medicare also makes you meet the federal ethics or fair business practices rules. For example it says that you may not purchase any items from anyone who works for your service or who's family works for your service. All employees must be screened to ensure they are not on the Fed's list of bad people, such as those who have defaulted on a student loan. Their is a database that all employee's and potential employees names must be checked with. If you have or hire someone on this list, you can lose all Medicare funds you were paid during their employment. And Medicare doesn't screw around, they immeidately pull all your funds and make you prove to them you're in the right before restoring any! It is for these reasons our municpal EMS dept. contracts out billing as there are too many rules to stay abreast of and the consequence of failing to do it right can shut you down.

Ask a Canadian how they like their Healthcare system. Sure you get basic healthcare for free. Basic is the key word. Many people wait for years for surgerys and procedures that most Amaericans would have done in a month using basic insurance coverage. We do have basic healthcare for everyone, how many homeless people do you refuse to take to the hospital? How many people are tossed out in the street without "basic" care? Is our system broke? Yes, we do need reform, but this has nothing to do with billing for EMS services. Do you understand that WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT? We are the ones who are paying for all public services. For every dollar raised in revenue, that is one less dollar we are taxed for. Pretty basic government. ← It is the job of our government or any government to provide for the saftey of their citizens....if they can or can not pay that should not be the issue............it should be free much the government that we pay for....and yes the taxes we pay are for the government to help us not the government itself sorry for the rant im just a tad ticked off ← Again we are the government, so it is us that can or cannot afford any and all services. Now, a fairer tax system (flat tax) and some healthcare reform and some reasonable scrutiny of goevernment spending and we may be able to offer better services for less or equal money. But I won't hold my breath.

So if these dept's didn't bill the taxpayers would pay twice as much or more for the same level of service. It comes down to simple mathmatics: It takes $XXX.XX to run an EMS service. The municipality provides $XX.XX for that service, and billing returns $XXX.XX to the municipal coffers. The billing money normally must go into the municipalities general fund or a dedicated revenue fund for the EMS service which inturn offsets the amount of taxes needed next year to run the service. I have yet to hear of a municipality making a profit on EMS. If they are they are asking too much of their taxpayers. As was mentioned earlier our system of taxation uses the tax and fee method to fund tons of major things: Roads and Bridges: why have tolls? we pay for these in taxes. Water/Sewer services: again billed for usage and also tax supported Law Enforcement: large tax burden to municiplaity and also revenues from fines and fees for "extra" service. Why can't I get a cop for a private detail for free? Municipal Administration Staff: Taxed for and then fees are collected to offset salaries and paperwork. Landfill/Dump/Transfer Station: Tax supported, fees for pay as you throw or pick-up service. Hell, you pay three or four times for recycleable items!! EMS: tax supported, insurance/pt. billed for services rendered. As a taxpayer I would rateher see more user fees. Why should I pay for services that I don't use? If I live on the outskirts of town and pay the tax tax rate, do I get the same response time from Fire, EMS and PD? Does my road get plowed as often as intown streets? In the end if tax dollars are the only thin that pay for municipal services we will have a socialist system reduced to the level of care we can afford to give the citizenry as a whole. As noted above how about all the renters who don't pay taxes? Raise the apartment building taxes and let landlords raise rent? Better find a bigger homeless shelter!

OK I guess I'm not clear how you guys do it in Westchester but, do you or the service bill insurance companies for the EMS provided? We run full ALS EMS in our area and are paid through the municipal budget (Fire/EMS dept.). We do not get donations (of an size) all equipment, salaries and costs are paid by the taxpayers. We bill the patient's insurance for any transports. By Medicare rules, any service that bill Medicare must bill every pateint transported utilizing their fee schedule which is basically set up just like the one detailed above. The maximum billing fees are based on a scale that fits a geographical area and the socio-economic factors for the region. Our max rates for example are like $300 for BLS and $450 for an ALS run, plus loaded miles. So according to Medicare we cannot fail to bill our residents and then bill anyone else (a common violation for many communities). The other issue is that you must bill the patient regardless of insurance status. The only thing that saves less fortuneate residents in our service area, is that the bills are written off after 12 months and do not go to collections. Without this billing system our taxpayers would pay 66% more in taxes toward EMS (roughly $700K/yr)

I would think this unit would be nearing completion as I saw the chassis in Ephrata back in Oct. Our unit was 3 months from the time the chassis was there to the unit arriving at the station. I think it ought to be pretty sharp as its the same "dark plum" color as their Rescue 17.

This is a constant struggle in our combination department. It always seems like two sets of rules. No answers here.

I'm with you on this one. ALS should be onscene if members are working in a truly IDLH environment. The types of injuries and medical issues that hapen at working fires oftern dictate the need for ALS. Smoke Inhalation, cardiac arrest, and major trauma are all very real possiblilites at every working structure fire. That being said, we run EMS in our area so every call requiring members to put on SCBA gets a ALS bus. The 1st bus runs staffed 24/7. On medical runs two personnel ride out, on fire calls one ALS member drives and the other rides the engine or truck depending on the days staffing. We in fact decided to send an ambulance with our mutual aid assignments to those towns who do not get and ALS ambo on working fires. This assures our crew that they'll have the best possible chance of survival in the event of an serious injury or medical issue.

double post sorry!

I'm not sure I'd agree with this statment. 1. It assumes a perfect world where everyone follows ICS/NIMS just as its written. 2. Even done correctly, when a chief arrives and is briefed he/she can and often will assume command. They do not wait for it to be relinquished or transferred. Maybe this is just a terminology conflict, but make no mistake if I'm taking command for whatever reason, I do just that. It is not a reflection of how the current IC is doing yet part of the formal transfer process that takes place. Relinquishing command has sort of a negative connotation and transferring command is generally to an equal or lower ranking officer. But, if for whatever reason it may be, if I or the Chief assumes command on the air, consider the transfer of authority and respnsibility complete regardless of the wording.

It not about working a side job. Its about your side job taking away another Union job. For example: I'm a union firefighter who complains that volunteers cost union jobs in the firehouse. But oin my days off I work for a local electrician but am not a union electrician. You can't have it both ways. If your IAFF and going to complain about vollies in combo depts or anywhere then you'd better take an unskilled decond job and let the union brothers have their primary one in the trades. Or don't b*tch. Being from a combo department that relies on POC personnel, I've been at jobs nearly begging for anyone to show up that could take a few windows to keep the heat off us. I really didn't care if tehy had an IAFF sticker on their helmet or not.

Good points Preemo. 1. I have no issue with being told to slow down a response. As a fire officer I look for valid reasons to shut down lights and sirens. Sorry to some of the adrenaline junkies out there but the slow approach is much safer for us and the public Plus I don't give much credit to guys who get off on driving hot runs. We do not cancel our first due responses once enroute, we'll slow up go with traffic and the first due will verify EMS or FD is not needed. 2. If we can get out of the roadway and ensure that we can safely reboard the apparatus or get into the back of the bus, then we don't close the road or lane. 3. Often we're dispatched late to an MVA because the dispatch took it as no injuries and 20 min. later the victim now complains of neck pain or such. These runs are non-emergency for us, and most often do not get a blocking engine. The EMS crew is mandated to ensure a safe area to evaluate the victim or call for the blocking engine. Again only for the late call MVA's. 4. The fire officer on the blocking engine at any MVA meets with the PD officer in charge of the law units and discusses opening lanes or traffic patterns when there is any question of opening traffic. A little open cooperation goes a long way. We have had very few (same shift, same A/C) incidents where the PD and FD officers did not agree on safe lane openings. Though it has been made very clear to all that the safety of our personnel and the victims comes before anything else. 5. Our biggest problem with PD and traffic is when we're operating at a fire or rescue operation the PD officers want to be as close as posible too, so they leave their posts allowing reporters and onlookers to get in to the scene. Many time the PD will watch as firefighters remove reporters from the immediate area.

JCESU: here goes: I couldn't agree more ont he misuse of fire apparatus. We have some depts. around us that roll the same to a MVA as a structure fire and createe a huge traffic issue needlessly. It takes a decent set of SOG's , quality leadership and well defined missions to work together well. But, how do you safely extricate people from new cars without cutting the battery? Can't you properly document this by asking the crew who did the extrication? Our AI officers usually don't get near the vehicles until the patients are gone, as they use the extrication time to secure the scene, and find uninjured witnesses. Of course we don't have many officers available so a few are quite busy, and our EMS units only have one hospital to transport to unless the victim is flown out from the scene. No need for the FD at some scenes but when cutting? So you have no or very limited extinguishing capabilitites at the scene? While we don't stretch a line every time the jaws operate we always have personnel available and ready to if need be. What kicks in the need for the FD? As for police having scene control because it is an investigation: this makes no sense to me. Isn't ensure the safety of the victims the first priority. I think the public would not be happy to know that the legal system is more concerned with finding who's at fault then providing the best care for victims. Of course I'd love it if the PD said they were in charge of accidents here, we could take up much sooner. Anytime someone else wants to take the responsibilty for everyone's safety at a scene, they can have it. I'll just take care of my crew and myself! But I certainly can see some validity in your issues and given the ESU, EMS and FD system you folks run with, it makes ours looks pretty simple.