antiquefirelt

The Metz doesn't claim to be a true Tower Ladder. In fact they only claim to be an NFPA stick with a bucket attachment. And the waterway is within the rails of the fly section of the ladder, nit below like most American trucks with prepiped sticks. So if you are planning on using the Metz to ascend the roof with a saw and hook, you might find it much more difficult given the narrow width. If you intend to bring a victim out, which must be their forte given they market the crap out of the speed to make a window upon arrival, you'll find it very narrow for guiding down a conscious victim. Possible? Sure and defineately better than nothing. Like I said, how easy is it to convince the average person to climb down a stick, nevermind a narrow one that the handrails provide virtually no visual barrier. Yes, you can use the basket, but you'll only get one firefighter and maybe two fully cooperable victims in the basket at once. I don't quite understand your point that all aerials are meant for emergency escape procedures? I would agree that is the only real reason for the ladder on a tower apparatus, but what about straight sticks, which is what the Metz really is? I understand the next generation Metz for the US will be wider and provide taller handrails and a better way of descending the ladder to the ground. I do beleive they have a niche to fill, but like was mentioned above, you must have done all the research first.

As ALS said, we treat every AFA as if it was a true fire with regard to what gets sent, how we dress and our attitude. The difference is Hot or Cold. We made a sincere attempt to send only the first due engine hot, but unfortuneately for us, when all units leave the same house at the same time, the three following units responding cold, made the traffic situation more confusing. We had to go back to all hot. But we are currently re-evaluating this with thought toward sending the first due engine hot and waiting 1 min for the rest of the units to respond cold. This again for AFA's with no other info. Most of the time we get the call stating burned popcorn, kid pulled the box, workers forgot to cover the detector and then immeidately reduce our hot response to cold. In the end we could respond cold to 80% of our alarms and the travel time would be less than one minute more given most of our district lies within 4 miles of the station and the furthest point has only 8 controlled intersections.

I believe the the Metz fills a need here in the US, but it's fairly specific. If you have a community that has rural roads that require being closed during spring months, or dirt roads that are not conducive to tandem axles then the Metz maybe a perfect alternative. There is some sacrifice though with compartment space and functionality of the aerial. The bucket on the end is barely big enough to two firefighters and hampers what they can do from it. The aerial itself is very narrow and if you add the waterway that is inside on the ladder it is even trickier to climb, never mind bring a victim down. The handrails are short making it even harder to climb for those with fear of heights, meaning victims are less likely to climb down as readily. The all electronic set-up system will keep you out of trouble, but if you don't know the proper slopes and angles it may prevent you from going where you need. The speed of set-up and flight to the window to me doesn't offset the poor climbability, poor master stream set up compared to true towers and the difficulty in removing a victim just from the turntable down. But if you need a 100 aerial on a chassis the size of a pumper, its really one of the only options.

OK here's a few answers from my experience: 1. Water temp: You'll never know the difference enough for this to be a factor at all. Conclusion: It's a non-issue. 2. Clockwise vs. counterclockwise: As the story goes water swirls in a clockwise direction north of the equator and counter clockwise south of the equator. They say you can see this when you watch any toilet flush or drain a sink? The basic thought being if this is the natural direction then the stream will travel further when directed in the appropriate direction for your location in relation to the equator. Again, I'd bet no one can prove any actual data showing the differences to be measurable. Conclusion: Sometimes no pattern is the best, straight stream to the seat. Other times a swirling pattern maybe required to cool the space, don't sweat the direction or pattern, but think more about how much water and how it's working. Does it drive you to the floor (very hot overhead- major steam conversion- think about backing up?) does it come down in full drops that are not too hot?(not bad overhead) Can you hear or feel the stream hitting the ceiling? (how high is the ceiling? Is there a drop ceiling?) What does the fire do? (darken down-laugh at you-instant zero visibility) 3. Mist vs. fog vs. straight stream: One of the biggest debates in the modern fire service. Mist and fog converts to steam, which is not great if you or a victim is in the space. Straight stream has better reach and penetration with less steam. Both have their applications. I recommend reading the late Andy Fredricks articels "Little Drops of Water" from Fire Engineering and Dave Fornell's Stream Management Handbook. Both provide great insight into fire stream theory. Conclusion: For me it's straight stream: Right is right, left for lobster!

I beleive this truck is a new addition vs. replacing an engine or tanker so if it is out of service their no worse off than before it was built. The bumper rolls are the best preconnect innovation I've seen to date period. They consist of 4 donut rolls (fold the hose in half, roll from the middle to the outer couplings). The donuts sit side by side and the one closest connect to the discharge port. The male connects to the next rolls female, and so on until the last male connect to the nozzle. You now have 200 ft. preconnected with three loops formed where they couple together. To deploy you grab the nozzle and the three loops and walk away. They unroll as you walk and when your 25 ft. from the bumper all 200 ft. is on the ground. As you continue to walk the first loop gets tight and you drop it continuing with the remaining 100 ft. same this with the next loop, until your left with the nozzle. If you come to the door at just 25 ft. all the hose ois on the ground "S" shaped layout with the nozzle toward the fire. To reload: drop 4 new donut lays into the well and connect them up. Anyone having a basic hose class can load and deploy this line and it takes up very little room. BTW if you need a longer line, you can remove the nozzle and connect it to thesecond well's hose for 400' or any variation there of. Need only 50'? Disconnect the knob and put it on the first donut's male. Now you have a trashline with no extra discharge or well.

I'll see what I can do. I know the guy who really spent the time to design the truck and will be taking a closer look next Tuesday with any luck. But, that being said, the compartments area no different than any compartment rear of the wheel well. I believe they have a second "skin" rather than the single wheelwell peice. In fact I beleive the outer 2-3 inches where the chrome fenderette attach is also removeable so you can change the fenderette when it gets crinkled without replacing the whole inside of the well.

Just to clear up on the bumper. From Firehouse forums, the designer of the truck notes that the bumper specced was a fixed steel C-channel with no moving parts. Crimson's R+D asked if they could do something movable and Hubbardstown reluctantly agreed with the express condition that all the tools and preconnects had to work easily with the bumper in the fixed position. He notes that if the bumper is ever damaged or stops working you'll see the steel one replacing it. I didn't take this that they were unhappy, but rather didn't see the need for the "fluff". Oh, and the bumper was on the house (Crimson).

My father was at one time a logger so I am fairly comfortable with a chainsaw in my hands. Our department carries two dedicated for cutting trees. This means regular carbide chains, not vent chains. Being up in the woods many of our firefighters are quite handy with a saw, other are not at all. More and more we see the need to train people on proper starting, safety and cutting. BTW:Vent chains do not throw wet wood at all and are terrible for cutting trees.

The pump is a rear mount pedestal type, with the panel on the drivers side in the rear compartment. This keeps the operator away from any discharges and intakes. Sources report the FD doesn't intend on really utilizing the tilt bumper much as it was not planned for and really needed, just an add-in from Crimson. While the Hubbardstown truck seems to put all the eggs in one basket, they know their staffing and are realistic about what they can do. So unlike some, they chose not to send 4+- guys in two or three apparatus, opting to initially send one well equipped engine. Spend a little time talking to them about the concept and you'll see it was well planned and thought out. Slayer 61: The aerial was a Rosenbauer/Metz Raptor. [attachmentid=2981] [attachmentid=2982] [attachmentid=2983] [attachmentid=2984] [attachmentid=2985] [attachmentid=2986] [attachmentid=2987] [attachmentid=2988] [attachmentid=2989]

While everyone might not like every aspect of the Hubbardston "Beast" it is filled with innovative ideas. I believe you'll find Crimson asked to "play" with the front bumper and the lifting unit was the final product they received (not necessarily designed by the Dept.) Here's a short list of some of the innovations or "newer" ideas I saw: *well laid out rear mount pump panel (including CAFs) *donut style bumper loads (easily loaded and pulled) *best use of real estate -air bags in wheel well area (7 bags plus PW extinguisher) - multiple bottles in the same area ahead of the wheel wells (4 bottles) - oil dry hopper in area behind rear wheel - 3 extinguishers ahead of drivers side rear duals - tools mounted by seating positions (including hook on the officers seat) - hoseload under the rear bench seats (connected???) * preconnected "squirrel tail suction" for that monster pump! * side directionals area angled out so other motorists can see them when they're coming up along side * safety camera system switches to side views with turn signal actuation * Officers 911 seat has seatbelt that starts on your left and clips in at the right so you don't fight to find the receiver against the doghouse (maybe a standard option now) * bumper rolls of 2.5" and 1.75" in rear compartment for easy deployment. This truck is due to be lettered and striped on Tuesday. Full Battenburg pattern! Definitely a real eye catcher!! I've got some pics of some of the ideas they used, I'll try to post them later.

Good point! We found that change orders come easy at the factory for tons of things. After spending 18-24 months of speccing we found we still didn't know everything on the market. These changes can be very costly and if not done at specific intervals the change order charge regardless of change adds big bucks. Ex: to change a pair of side boat dock style lights would have added $900 for a $125 job due to missing the correct deadline for changes. In the end we saved money on change orders as we cut many things out once we saw trucks on the production line. BTW FFD55 what did you buy for a tower?

For those who just spec a Peirce (or any other single manufacturer) you are not spending the taxpayer dollars wisely. If you can spec what your dept. needs, and keep the specs generic enough that 3 or 4 companies will bid, you'll find that Peirce will cost alot more than most others. Are they nice? Yes. Are they better built than many? Yes. Are they better built than any other? No. There are some great builders and some crappy ones. Peirce is outpricing itself because of the whackers who think their the only decent trucks on the market. With hundreds of depts who just spec and buy Peirce the price will continue to grow. On our tower bid they were over $100k more than three others and nearly equal to Aerialscope to which they are far from equal! Hell the owner of the Peirce dealer told us we had to want a Peirce because it was a Peirce! What a joke! IMO the Peirce badge is the most expensive of all "bells and whistles". Show me Peirce bought on low bid and I'll show you a spec that only they could meet. Design the truck/engine/rescue to meet your community. Then compare it to a stock truck or a big city bid spec, if your close enough to either, you might save some dough tacking on to an order and keeping changes to a minimum. If not continue below. Go an look at apparatus similar to what you've "designed". Who does what well. What works, what would people change? Ask about the dealers, who gives good service? Write specs that meet your needs. Have them proof read to ensure there are not manufacturer specific items, or keep these to a minimum and allow others to meet or exceed with an option that must be explained. Remember you should want numerous bids, this keeps the price down. Do not leave gray areas. If turning radius is important make them tell you the turning radius in the same manner. Go to bid with manufacturers who can build and service the apparatus in an efficient manner. Take the time to review the bids, line for line. Choose the one that closest meets you spec at the best price. Document why others failed to meet critical points. Heavily weigh who can service the apparatus the best. Everyone has issues, its timely service without a hassle that ensures your happiness. Award the bid, enjoy your new truck. When the auditor comes to question your process you'll have no issues. And the taxpayers will appreciate your looking out for their wallets. Low bid does not mean low quality, it means you must do your homework and write quality specs.

One engine, one ambulance to all car fires w/o exposures. Car fires with exposures get one engine, one truck, one ambulance. We run the EMS here, so the ambo goes to almost every call. Also, this fits our thoughts that anytime a firefighter must wear SCBA, there should be an ambulance on scene.

ALF is as sole source as Peirce, Seagrave and E-One. How did you get Spartan in there? Crimson fire apparatus is owned by Spartan Motors. LTI is owned by ALF and all LTI aerials are built at ALF's plant in Ephrata PA. Now if you spec hybrid Spartan/ALF aerial you're the problem not them. By your statement only E-One built most aerials that aren't disasters. And E-One does have a great aerial history with no catastrophic failures. Most of the biggies have bought up previous aerial companies and used their ladders to badge as their own. BTW who builds transmissions and motors for your preferred apparatus builder?

I believe our dept. has evolved in the last 5 years to be pretty open to anyone who is interested. The hardest part is that we still are crude, rude and fairly abrasive behind closed doors. Now we understand we can't hide behind the "its a firehouse what do you expect" argument. That being said, we've had four career firefighter/EMS people who are female. At least two of them can be as crude as an man I know. We area in a fairly ethnically devoid area so unless you figure in my part Sicilian bloodline we have no minority firefighters. I agree with BFD182 that targeting certain populations is wrong. There are plenty of capable people who want to be firefighters and cops, we do not need to try and convince more people to try with promise of money and benefits. We do not recruit any members unless it word of mouth friend to friend. But I/we don't care what you are, if you want to be a firefighter and are motivated and have a strong work ethic and ready are to learn, we'll take you. At least two of our females are as tough as most of their counterparts and have the drive to do the job. I won't say there aren't issues and the females tend to be way more vindictive and bitter when they think they've been wronged. All in all diversity has been tougher on the people with rank than the troops. It's tough keeping the jokes appropriate for the audience and dealing with some of the issues that arise. All the firefighters have to do is talk like their mom is in the room.

I beleiev Rosenbauer claims to be the largest fire apparatus manufacturer in the world. As previously said, they're big in Europe and beyond. They've bought up a few manufacturers in the US like Central States and others. We own a pre-Rosenbauer Central Mistake. Man what a POS!! More problems than imaginable. The worst and most relevant here, was finding the rear SCBA seats tearing out of the floor of the HME cab. We went to Rosenbauer and told them about the seats as well as significant body rust that was attributed to primer being put on damp/wet metal. They asked the Chief if these were the only issue with the Cetral truck and said that there was nothing they would do, end of story. Thankfully with some of my online complaing a salesman from HME called and said they may be interested in making the HME issues right. Low and behold HME came through, even though they now produce a whole engine in competetion with Rosenbauer. In the long run, we'll not let a Rosenbauer salesman step foot in the station again. We'd give away this one we have!

Here's a link to the NIOSH report on the ladder bail fatality: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face9925.html He was not a RIT instructor, it was not an escape class and the ladder was set to ascend (75 degrees) and attack the fire through the window, not for escape. The ladder was into the window 9". Ladder bails are dangerous, but I am a firm beleiver that they are a valid option that you should have done in training before you find yourself bailing out like you saw in some video! Better yet is for a dept. to drill on it, then spend alot of time training on how not to get put in the position to need to bail.

I guess we're missing something here then. The ladder was not up until the firefighter was hanging from the window. Therefore it was placed correctly in the bail position. I was a little doubtful a few posts back when you said shorten the ladder up, now I'm very doubtful. Too steep and you will have a much harder time controlling the desent. And turning around on the ladder at the climbing angle is much harder. We teach when ladder are thown for entry you put them at climbing angles, but ladders thrown to windows for secondary egress are put up at shallower angles to facilitate a safer escape. I have a hard time seeing these guys get criticized over the technique chosen when fire was licking their tails. Maybe things shouldn't have got to this point, but these guys are safe and doing calls again on the same tour! EGH!! The first guy was coming out without the ladder so sitting around mulling which escape option was best didn't seem to be a factor for them. Thankfully someone was ready nearby to move the ladder to them. I wouldn;t for one minute criticize coming all the way down headfirst, his butt was burning and he knows his partner is behind him! And the window drop is nice when you're the only one around but the few guys I've talked to or read about who have been in simialr situations say they were bailing out headfirst and didn't care if there was a laddder, roof or anything to catch them! It hurts that much! Let's be realistic, unless you're in the sh*t with those guys you don't criticize how they saved their own bacon! And in the perfect world that would have had the ladder ready in the perfect position (low and long) the firefighters wouldn't have needed to bail. They would have come out the way they went in. If you want to critque the incident lets work on how the brothers got into that predicament in the first place. Lastly, I'll try to find the true story on the Capt. who broke his neck. From what I remember his bailout was imprompto onto a ladder that was set at theclimbing angle and his exit was too fast and he couldn't grab the rungs with his hands or feet. But it was not a sanctioned training exercise.

AMERICA @&%$ YEAH!!!! Couldn't agree more. I'll watch Michael Moore's movies when their made free rather than to line his pockets. If their so important then they shouldn't make a profit. Though I'll admit the insurance thing is a good topic to investigate. I might have to put on a wig and mask some night and go see it.

My crew had the same discussion here today and also came up with the heavey reliance on the TIC as a possible issue. Certainly if she was in a glass enclosed shower (as many civilians worry about burning) then the TIC would give a false read on the glass. But not to make excuses for them, but we haven't got the full story here either. How many actaully went on the first search? the chief says "crews" but did every firefighter bail out and charge up the stairs? Or did a crew pull a line to protect the stairs? How large is the total third floor? Is it multiple apartments that required forcible entry? How many were in the intial two apparatus? It cetainly doesn't help for the interim Chief to immediately go on an offensive investigation, but he should know more than us, and it might be warranted.

Our dispatchers are as described by Jonesy. Typical EMS call: Rockland EMS respond to 118 Park St. for a 78 year old female who fell last night and is now complaining of hip pain. Conscious and breathing. (repeat). I love the "conscoius and breathing statement because they say it everytime sometimes even when its a cardiac arrest call!! Though today they sent the ambo to a male who had been struck in the head in an inductrail boat shop and left out anything about consciousness! Oh, and this is for a fulltime Fire/EMS dept. that gets the unedited version over the PA inhouse making the page out little more than scanner chatter. We have pleaded with them to leave out the all but the primary medical issue but with very minimal medical training they are afraid they'll leave out something pertinent.

If you're going to follow any rule, follow the "first line through the front door at PD's everytime" Rule. Unburned to burned is old and was developed when we used 1.5" lines on fog with inadequate flows to "push" the fire from the building. Now we attack using a flow set to overcome the BTU's and put the fire out at the seat. We use straight stream or better yet smoothbores to ensure that we DO NOT PUSH the fire! As SQ47 said Unburned to burned is not a bad tactic, but it should only be used when all other things are eqaul, which is just about....wait for it...0% of the time. If you have any thought of possible victims (which you always should) then the front door allows you to get the line between the stairs or other primary means of egress and the fire. Stretching to the rear takes longer and most often leaves the open stairs unprotected. And you're quite right: Freelancing is unacceptable and dangerous.

Excellant reminder for those who still don't care enough about themselves, their brothers, their families or the public to just put the F*&$ing thing on and stop making lame excuses.

I have to tell you, I think some of you are way off on the amount of fire inside the attic. There is little to no velocity of the smoke or flame, coupled with light colored smoke. I'd say the bulk of the fire was on the outside. Some extension? Highly likely. Heavy fire? I don't beleive it. Of course none of us would be so foolish to base any tactical decision on just one view, I hope. I'd certainly rather work this and any roof from the bucket rather than putting guys on the roof. On trusses, in another life, I've worked on and installed low-pitched lightweight wood roof trusses. So the pitch is no indicator of truss or rafters. But this type of housing is real common in my area. They have been predominantly built with rafters but lately everything is trusses, especially where there's no attic space to contend with. Any whoever said "trench cut", you might want to rethink that. Most trenches take much longer than one single family dwelling will allow for. In the end, I'd want my interior crew telling me the conditions and opening up to get some water in the attic. Then if it was really needed I'd send the crews on that roof, with absolute knowledge of the fire conditions in the attic. I'm pretty sure the Jakes in Saugus aren't stupid, they get plenty of work and do a good job.

I also hate teh "Expedite" or other radio speak meant to get any unit to floor it! Our personnel are taught to drive two ways: 1. Non-emergency: Drive with the flow of traffic. 2. Emergency: drive as fast as safely possible using full audible and visual warning devices and using due regard. If the rig is already travelling "emergecny status" then then that's it! No more! We're given her all she's got Captain! If the rig is responding "non-emergency", they'll kick it up to "emergency". But, it is known when the rig goes enroute how their travelling because they put themselves enroute "emergency status" or "non-emergency status" as part of the radio transmission. Our personnel will always switch to "non-emergency" if they recive a report from a trained party at the scene or reports of no injuries at MVA's. This is due to the high risk situation caused by driving lights and sirens. And with mostly short runs 1-2 miles max in mild traffic the response times only drift up slightly.