antiquefirelt

In going with what Moggie posted above, our FD looked into CAFS for our last engine purchase. In researching CAFS I had the opportunity to speak with the Capt. in charge of the fleet for a very large career FD that uses CAFS. His advice was actually pretty instrumental in our not getting CAFS. His feeling was that they had great success with CAFS, but that a FD must really have complete buy-in, so that all shifts would use the CAFS vs. some picking an choosing. Basically new tools, tactics and equipment is only as good as the users, and when a large obstacle such as the one Montgomery Co. has, comes into play, you suddenly have significant operational issues. I'm convinced that if you cannot mandate the training, standardization of tactics and employment of said equipment, you'll not find success with this or likely any tool/tactic that imposes a significant change.

The Minitor IV's will take narrowband frequencies, at least in the 15X range, we've been using them here on narrow band for a few years and the receive end of things is not an issue. Even the 3's can be utilized I've been told as some FD's in our area have been using them as well, though I do not believe we've had a PL on the freq, so that might be the issue with 3's.

While I'd agree that college coursework can help in these areas, the individual really makes the difference. I think we probably all know some people with degrees that cannot think their way out of a room with an open door, while knowing others without degrees who could figure the way out of a room without doors. Those attributes can be tested for thus why exclude applicants from trying to promote? If the college degree provides others with better testing skills and critical thinking they should do better, right? Have we not seen what happens when we fail to find the right balance between education and actual skills? When a better educated officer has proven themselves to be "battle tested" the confidence of both their superiors and subordinates is realized. Under-educated officers may fail to attain the proper confidence of their bosses, while under experienced officers will have a more difficult time gaining the confidence of those under them. Either can be a manager, to be a leader often takes both. As a part of raising the collective bar and being recognized as a profession vs. a job, I can see the degree being a useful thing, but in the end is it because we want people to see us as better on paper or wanting to actually be better?

As I've said before, I do not think a degree, as a requirement, is necessary. Does a degree give the holder a better chance at success? Probably in the long run, the answer is yes. But a significant portion of this job is task oriented and much of it comes to strong people doing tough work. If you think the degree is necessary, why not test for what it is you're really looking for? As an officer you do need a broader skill set and knowledge base, but don't for a minute think there aren't tons of great officer out there without a sheepskin. Again, if the degree provides a leg up in testing and assessment, so be it, as long as it doesn't give points just for possession. A proper assessment system tests personnel for the attributes your organization finds necessary to do the particular job. A company officers role is different from a chief. Task oriented with leadership qualities and the ability to teach are maybe more important that public speaking in most FD's. While in some FD's the Chief maybe more of department manager and City Hall person, still others rely on the COD to actually run day to day business and respond to routine incidents. We have maybe a 50/50 mix of personnel with or without degrees, and I really can't see any one of them having a lead on another due to the degree. While some have better study skills (not all though) some lack life experience and any work in a private field, which tends to help motivate people. As hard as it seems, one can go back to school and learn a trick or two later in life. If I had my way, we'd suggest classes to personnel that would help them I the long run. A course load full of elective BS doesn't do much. A large part of the fire science degree programs don't offer as much insight as an ambitious firefighters first 5 years of OJT and fire service training opportunities. Of course some schools offer far better programs and instructors than others, adding yet another level of question to the issue.

This might be a good example of being a trained emergency vehicle operator vs. an experience one. As you nicely pointed out, just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right. An operator should be able to fathom that even on a long bridge such as the TZ (up North anyway)the speed gain would likely barely be noticeable yet the risk would be far greater given the average motorist may have no clue what they should do.

Best to just do the evolution. Pump set ups vary enough and are sometimes "optimized" sometimes downgraded, that the actual numbers are probably less standard than one might think. It's a good chance to explain why FL on the intake side at draft may be a significant factor vs. the same small number on the discharge side or from a positive water source?

This is the real story. Sure one could infer that pointing out a childs room makes them more vulnerable to a child predator, but parents still put up "My Little Pony" curtains which is pretty well a sign of a child's or Engine guys' room! All joking aside, don't we look for clues as to which rooms are bedrooms and hopefully notice telltale signs when they're present? The stickers quickly became a false indicator which is worse than none at all. Use what you know about buildings and people and you'll find your accuracy will be surprisingly good. Even those who think they don't know much often are actually do know things once they've been pointed out. Little size-up clues are often the kind of classroom/field trip/cognitive lessons that can easily remain with a person over the years, unlike many subjects that go stale if not used or drilled on regularly.

Much as I hate the Yankee's I cannot bring myself to hate Jeter. He's an outstanding ball player without being an arrogant tool. Quite an accomplishment, congrats. Now go Red Sox!

I agree with I . If more FD's could same the same of their supervision, motivation and quality training of their personnel this wouldn't even be a topic. The age numbers don't add up to the same answer every time. Why not make FD driver eligibility based on the insurance standard of 25 yoa? What makes 21 the magic number? We tend to pick some of these numbers out of thin air vs. really looking at what the number does for us. Like other prerequisites in most fields they serve as broad brush qualifiers when the real question here is "are you going to be a safe driver?" We all know plenty of unsafe drivers who are over 25 and some of us know many 18 year olds that have safely driven emergency vehicles. I am a strong proponent of a quality driver training program that requires every student to take a cognitive course and pass an exam, a pass/fail obstacle course and then road time under direct supervision until the instructor feels you're qualified to operate. This should be followed by annual re-certification. What I do not believe in is making everyone get a CDL and then thinking they magically are now safer drivers. CDL training is great to help people understand the dynamics of driving larger apparatus better, but merely in the cognitive sense. The road time is far too limited and doesn't account for emergency driving. The fact that drivers with CDL's are statistically safer is based on their total driving experience not their training class. . Add in thousands of new CDL's where the driver's only operate fire apparatus once in awhile and the overall safety statistics will drop. I think CDL's cannot hurt, but I don't think they'll help much more than cut down the number of drivers of apparatus, which may have some moderate effect on overall driver safety.

I'm not really thinking of this as a fire service issue. I'm looking at the basic fundamental flaw that we in the U.S. state that 18 years of age is old enough to train, arm and send a person to war, yet withhold other privileges or eligibility requirements based on the perception of "maturity level". My choice to use the word "right" was unintentionally inappropriate. Our legal system also holds those attaining the age of 18 fully accountable for their criminal actions based on what we expect they know or should know. And to be clear, I agree with the 18 yoa being acceptable for military service and the death penalty, so it's the perception that it can not be used to as part or a list of eligibility factors for driving emergency apparatus that I feel is wrong. I agree that it is individual specific and the FD needs to have a system in place that ensures it's drivers (of any age) are qualified to a standard to strives for safe operation.Your driver training program and policies should reveal the true issue of maturity.

While I completely understand the issue, I have a hard time sending 18 year olds off to war but withholding any other right for a more mature age. You can be trusted with all sorts of weaponry, but cannot be trusted to drink alcohol or drive big trucks? Now, should all FD"s be required to have a comprehensive driving program that ensures drivers of any age are mature enough and possess the proper attitude? Of course. It's just a basic fundamental flaw in the US's attitude toward men and women of military service age, that I see.

To add to BNECHIS's answer, here is the NFPA 1901 reference: 15.9.3.2 At least 50 percent of the rear-facing vertical surfaces, visible from the rear of the apparatus, excluding any pump panel areas not covered by a door, shall be equipped with retroreflective striping in a chevron pattern sloping downward and away from the centerline of the vehicle at an angle of 45 degrees. 15.9.3.2.1 Each stripe in the chevron shall be a single color alternating between red and either yellow, fluorescent yellow, or fluorescent yellow-green. 15.9.3.2.2 Each stripe shall be 6 in. (150 mm) in width. The way this reads, it appears that you may be able to cover 100% of the rear facing surfaces with the chevron, then use standard decal for one color, and the retro-reflective for the other to get your 50% total coverage? It appears the intent is that all the striping be reflective, but I think a good argument may be made for the half and half.

Did anyone else end up bidding? I'd be interested to see a MM tower ladder from any other builder that met the FDNY spec.

Exactly the same here in Maine. We always feel like by the time the new protocols come out the changes are late and there are a host of new one they should have put in. But, t'is the sign of any good bureaucracy. Thankfully they're modifying our medical control model and it appears that the regional docs will be given more latitude (if they'll accept any perceived or real increased liability) with regard to keeping up with best practices. Or so I'm told, I sit on the periphery of the EMS admin portion of our job.

@ Goose: I just had a quick discussion on the topic with our QA Paramedic who noted her impression of the hypoxic drive issue was the longer term administration of high flow oxygen. In the cases regarding chest pain, I'm just wishing that the protocol be updated sooner to reflect current best practices so as proactive EMS personnel are not forced to choose between doing what is thought to be right or what is written in the little book that cover ye arse.

Oddly enough, when pulse oximetry first hit the field within 6 months special notices were sent out cautioning EMS to not use the technology to ignore signs, symptoms and the related protocols. Now, and very rightfully it would seem, the protocols need to be amended to put more faith in the technology and administering oxygen based on the "proven" need. I know for a fact that, here, EMS providers have been cited for protocol violations in the past for failing to provide high flow O's to chest pain patients while the oximeter read over 95%. The learning curves need to find their way into protocol, when the other side of the house (admin, legal) continually notes that the best way to limit liability is to strictly follow the approved protocols. One must be able to be confident that the machine is accurate. This doesn't mean proving by some algorithmic test it works before every shift, but making sure that when it's on the patient it's got a pulse match and the reading makes sense for what you're seeing.

Has NY State adopted NFPA 1? This and specific state law in Maine allows the Fire Chief to conducted warrantless searches for dangerous building conditions to ensure the safety of the citizens. The first line of this law is: "The building official, the fire inspector and the municipal fire officers of any city or town may at all reasonable hours, for the purpose of examination, enter into and upon all buildings and premises within their jurisdiction." There is also a law addressing "Refusing admission to a building official." Another addresses the State Fire Marshal's and Public Safety inspectors ability to enter and inspect "whenever they determine it necessary" for the purpose of enforcing codes/laws/ordinances adopted by the Commissioner of Pubic Safety. Again, these are Maine laws, not NY. Though I'd be surprised if NY didn't have some similar language protecting building officials and fire inspectors.

The Rockland County guys have an article on the same topic in this months Fire Engineering. Some interesting points and good advice from them and others they asked on tactics.

As I think I've said before, our most recent truck committee struggled to make the hosebed as low as possible and given other constraints: minimum tank size, overall engine length and the hoseloads to be carried we were forced to choose which were the priorities. In the end, we asked ourselves what each obstacle accomplished. The water tank size allows us more time before the water supply must be completed, a major issue with parts of our first due with no hydrants. The overall length was pretty much set by the apparatus bay floor areas where the engine could be positioned. The hoseloads are determined by what we felt were necessary amounts of LDH, a 2.5" bed for fire attack and a 3" line with a mini-monitor that doubles as a alley stretch. The last factor was to ask "what does a low hosebed do for us"? We found that it isn't the bottom of the hosebed that matters, but the top of the finished load we carry. A single stack of 5" LDH could be right on the frame rails and still end up far too high. The wider and longer the bed the less height needed. In the end we found we couldn't have our cake and eat it too, so we decided to allow the top of the load to be higher, but mounted all the ends (nozzles/gun) outside the bed where you can reach them from the ground under more stressed fireground conditions. . A few short pieces of webbing properly placed allows one firefighter to pull any of the loads free of the bed from the ground as well. The sacrifice is when it comes to reloading, which as BNECHIS noted likely requires fall protection by the letter of the law, but to us was the most controllable time where we could guarantee the appropriate number of firefighters, working safely, utilizing proper technique and in a slower controlled setting.

Our times start when the 911 line "rings" at the PSAP. Even before it's answered a clock time stamps the call. This ensures every part of using the emergency service system is part of the actual response time. To the person making the report or awaiting fire/EMS/LE services they've now put in their request and they start their clock. Any "start time" after their clock starts means little to them. They know they told someone they need help, now they're waiting for help to arrive. We have many local FD's and EMS services that want to use other times: Tone times, tone acknowledged times, station alerting times, you name it, anything that takes dispatch (something not in their direct control) out of the time clock. This is "easier" then demanding decent service from dispatch I guess, and of course their numbers look better. Our guys take some crap from other departments for being on the road before the tones drop, but when we explain our clock starts at the very first time stamp, they shut up quickly. On the other end it is not as easy to measure the best time. The best case would be for the time to stop when either the appropriate level of service was on scene and ready to begin actual mitigation (patient care, active criminal interdiction or fire attack. Of course most of the country cannot agree on what is the appropriate level to begin work, so we fall back on the first arriving mitigation unit. For fire calls in my FD this is an engine company or ambulance on EMS calls. The problem for us is that in our NFIRs reporting system if anyone arrives ahead of the appropriate unit, if their times are documented, that's what goes into the response time formula. So a first arriving chief stops the clock or an engine company arriving before a delayed ambulance.

No harm done, just explaining some of the decisions and factors that affected them. While this one went better than expected there are always a few things that could be done better, though I doubt we could've had a better end result.As for melting lettering and decals: This one caused the following: Someone ended up not being able to sit down for a month :angry: after order a line into the aerial directly off a hydrant back in 2004.

"Aside from the can, I would like to make just a couple of comments on TL placenemt. . I don't like it when guys look at one picture and commence to nit-pick it to the finest detail so please take my comments as general points and not throwing stones at the picture. Not being able to but one side of the rig there may be many reasons for him to position his rig here. He positioned his turntable at a corner of the bldg. Good move...he has doubled hid scrub area and can get to Sides B and C. A little too close to the building. Collapse, radiant heat are 2 factors, But standing off by 25 to 30 ft allows you to move your boom more effectively. Again, the operator may not have ahd this luxury and had to take what was dealt him." I'll take my lumps, no doubt we always learn something from every job. The tower ended up in what the Chief thought was the only position given the power lines fronting side #1. The position it took was kinda the only other shot. In general we weren't pleased given the real exposure was on the far side of the fire building, but given the rapid knockdown it ended up being perfect. Leaving my seat I'd anticipated losing the top floor given the age of the building and my general characterization of the tenants and area. Low and behold the building had intact lather and plaster walls, closed solid core doors, a fairly accessible common hallway and an truly empty attic. The proximity of the tower to the building did get early attention as the radiant heat was pretty decent. A handline was stretched to cool ex.4 and kill the porch fire itself. In the end the bucket did go up to work the extension in the gable trim, but with a little luck on our side we didn't need any more than handlines. My crew had actually set up the tower to shoot the alley between side 4 and exposure 4 about four years ago after a nearby 3 a.m. fire alarm run. Given the power lines running along the building side of the street we wanted to see if we could place the turntable close enough to make the alley and found we could get to the second floor windows, but not the roof. Of course the leeway to make the alley was pretty small. "And one more comment: plese don't refer to that responder as the "new Coast Guard kid" any more. He's a Coast Guardsman and stopped being a kid at about the second week of boot camp. I know you meant it as a compliment, but came out the wrong way. Thanks." Good point, you're right I certainly didn't meet if offensively. We've been very fortunate to have two excellent volunteer members from the USCG as members of our call division, and it sound like this new Coast Guardsman from Elmont may come join while he's stationed in town here. In all we've had a great relationship with the base and boats from the CG. But, young men they are, just like we all were once. Last summer after an early morning run as we sat in our dayroom watching the tube, I heard voices out back and watched two males exit a car leaving the female driver waiting in our back parking lot. They weren't really too quiet and a couple of us went out back to see what they were up to, and at first couldn't find them, until we looked up the 80 ft.Verizon cell tower attached to our building. There they were, two CG guys climbing the tower with a video camera. They came right down on command and instead of running off stood right there and manned up and apologized up and down and were very respectful and decent, especially as drunk as they were. We ensured the female driver was sober and sent them off. Luckily it was one of those "no harm no foul, you'd better smarten up before you get hurt" moments.

IIRC, a few years ago BNECHIS posted some ideas, thoughts or actual pictures of applying the chevrons with one of the colors being retro-reflective and the other standard colored decal. I remember the it being pretty convincing, so I'm guessing a picture must have been included. I can say that the first three apparatus we had chevroned red/white in 3" stripes and new ambulance with the standard red/yellow chevron were all done with the standard "flat" retro reflective decal and all show up with little shape at night. Still highly visible, but the chevrons blend. The last engine with the "quartz" style red/yellow chevron is incredibly visible and the contrast is huge such that the chevrons are distinct day or night. So on top of being done correctly to gain the proper subconscious attention of the driver, the striping may need to be a specific material or alternating color and material to ensure the best visibility.

Same question here? If it's about the lettering, then I'd agree it's a marketing issue. And many ambulance have striping on the inside of the rear doors too. As for the chevron direction while the doors are open? That's a real stretch of a silly argument.

As a follow up to the above pictures, here are some of the "after pictures". Interior after the fire Area of origin in the kitchen 2-3 corner view after the fire 1-4 corner view after the fire