LayTheLine

I forgot about this topic as well... over 2 years ago. Here is an opinion about your question of why EMS would be more open to consolidating and not fire. I may not have this right but here is my understanding. Ambulance services are allowed to bill for their services and collect Medicaid & Medicare payments as well as from private insurance companies. So there is money to be saved if you can consolidate the number of rigs in service and the amount of manpower on-duty. Example: Towns A,B,C,D each have their own ambulance service. Each town maintains 3 ambulances. Each town has 2 on-duty members with 2 back-up members for a 2nd ambulance call. If the personnel are paid, including the back-up crews when activated, it can increase your costs. Plus maintaining 3 ambulances both mechanically and outfitted with gear can be expensive. If you consolidated those 4 town ambulance services into 1, then perhaps you maintain only 8 ambulances (4 on-duty & 4 back-up). When a 2nd call or 3rd call came in, another on-duty ambulance would take it and hence not have to pay off-duty members to respond. If it's an MCI, then of course you'd put all 8 ambulances on the road and call in off-duty members. Fire departments don't charge for their services and can be a burden to a community's budget. It sounds good on paper to consolidate, but then you may have to spread out personnel to cover all the stations. Maybe Town A & B have 6 per shift, Town C has 3 per shift, & Town D has 1 per shift. Now, if all the towns are going to share the tax burden through a fire district you'd have to figure that people will want a certain level of coverage throughout. Perhaps the solution would be to spread out the 16 personnel equally to 4 per station. This would then necessitate a shift-commander for the newly created fire district. That isn't a bad thing, but if it's a combination career/volunteer department the remaining volunteers may lose interest as the responses are changed and the career staff ends up handling the majority of the calls by sending a piece from two stations (1 engine each) to a vehicle fire. The same with automatic alarms. Soon the volunteers would dwindle to the point of being an ineffective back-up force and the district needs to increase the on-duty staff (hire) to handle the call volume. There is something to be said for self-government where voters keep control of their own destiny. Conversely, to not be open to sharing equipment and responses doesn't help anyone. In the end there are many issues to be considered.

No worries. I had no idea you did it manually. Thought it was a cut & paste thing. I am a numbers guy and I work part-time as a copy editor. All good stuff, thanks for posting it.

I look forward to this list every year. To see the workload & breakdown the stats can keep me busy for hours!! Couple things I picked up on: 1) It shows Squad 18 as having responded to 120 runs all year. I am wondering if they mean Squad 8 and the stats for that company in December when it opened and then accidentally skipped over Squad 18. ??? 2) Engine 62 in the North Bronx sees a lot of work. From listing to the radio and reading the rundowns, it sounds like Division 7 (North Bronx) had a very busy year. It seems there were many "All-Hands or greater" within 1 mile of the Westchester County border. The Bronx in general seems to get their fair share of work. 3) I was surprised to see that Battalion 43 in Brooklyn, only responded to 18 "All-Hands or greater". I would have guessed more than that just based on the numbers for the surrounding Battalions (42, 33, 58). They are far below the 2nd slowest Battalion (47) which had 44 "All-Hands or greater". 4) You've got to love the City Island (Bronx) pieces that turn a wheel maybe once a day at best. But if they weren't there, along with what would be long-runs for any other unit going in first-due, you could lose 1/2 of City Island with one fire! It's a small area but the fire load is compacted pretty tight and you need to protect it. 5) Battalion 50 in Queens was the busiest with 200 "All-Hands or Greater" and they are always up there which makes sense because they are so centrally located and if they aren't the first chief in they are the 10-75 chief for many abutting Battalions. That's my VERY UNOFFICIAL first glance impressions.

Very good information GBFD111. But to clarify, which department would be covering your insurance? The last sentence isn't clear to me. Thanks

I've never heard of it called mutual aid membership, but times do change. I had to read the question twice. What I have always heard it referred to is dual membership status. It was very lax when it started back in the day, but I suppose with legal ramifications so prevalent that policies and procedures need to be in place. I'll be interested to see some of the responses.

I agree, NO

I would agree that the word squad may designate anything, anywhere. I would say that the word is the most commonly used word in the fire service with multiple, multiple definitions.

As an add on to "bad box" comment. Last month FDNY put another squad into service. It's Squad 8 on Staten Island. It's in the quarters of E154. E154 was disbanded when Squad 8 went into service. FDNY now has a total of 8 squads. As eluded to in most of these responses, FDNY squads are enhanced engine companies. They run with an engine and carry a full-assortment of extrication and rescue equipment. Each squad has a 2nd Piece called a Haz-Mat Tech unit. Whenever there is Haz-Mat call anywhere in the city, a squad (with their second piece), Haz-Mat Company 1, and the Haz-Mat Battalion are assigned. Manning on the FDNY squads is 6 (1 officer & 5 firefighters).

Hopefully, Alan, AFS1970 can answer this question: This is not intended to open old wounds about the merger of the fire departments in the City of Stamford. What I am interested in is what is the current organization of the department(s)? Staffed stations, location of career engines & ladders, manning per piece, response of volunteers in supplement of career staff? Does the career department respond to every call with some type of response from Long Island Sound up to the New York State border as well as East to West boundaries? I'm just curious about the current status of what the City runs, not the past or future plans. Thanks, LayTheLine

Very unique piece of apparatus. My question is: with a pair of front axles so close together, I assume that it must be a twin-steer axle. If not, the turning radius must be horrible. To top it off it's a cab-forward so I would think learning to drive it and to really get a feel for it must take some practice. Any thoughts?

Best of luck to the NFD. Happy to see the politicians are speaking up. If my math is correct, that's 25% of the staff on the floor! I'd assume they'd keep 3 at the sub-station and then drop to 3 on the HQ engine, 2 on the ladder, plus the Assistant Chief. Totally unacceptable. Before looking it up, I figured a city of 28K in 5 square miles would be running 3 or 4 engines and would have about 17 or 18 per shift. How are they going to cover a CITY with 9 guys?

Very helpful AFS1970. I'll have to save this thread. Thanks!!

Thanks guys, just what I was looking for. A lot easier when listening to the scanner.

I'm a little confused about two things, can anyone please clarify? 1) The E response says closest Haz-Mat, Fire Marshall, etc. Would this include fire departments that send an engine or rescue first due because they don't have an ambulance? Or is a fire department that runs EMS with no ambulance considered part of the BLS response? Example: Croton Falls Fire responds to EMS calls and North Salem VAC transports. Does Croton Falls only go on E codes, or are they considered part of the BLS response and go on all B,C, D, & E calls? 2) The C response confuses me. Why would you respond a BLS ambulance emergency and ALS non-emergency? My thinking is that most ambulances are BLS and the ALS comes in a fly-car. So if the call was in Armonk, why would the ambulance respond emergency but the ALS vehicle is coming non-emergency from Northern Westchester Hospital? It would seem to me that Armonk BLS ambulance could beat the ALS fly-car by 20 minutes if they were going emergency and the ALS was coming non-emergency. I guess my question is what types of calls fall into this category? Thanks for any feedback!

FireMedic049 - Question for you: I'm guessing that with 21 FT personnel, that there are 4 groups of 5 and the chief. The PT personnel are assigned to one of 4 groups which would be 3 PT per group. So if the FT staff is on-duty that would give you a minimum of 5 and if 3 PT staff are on-duty that would bring you up to 8. Of course it could vary anywhere between 5 and 8. Am I correct? Also, is there a minimum number of FT personnel that must be on-duty? Example: 3 must be FT and 2 can be PT to make up the minimum of 5. Just curious how all that works.

I am not in Westchester County, however, where I am the following is the norm: 1) Most departments have minimal on-duty staff. Some have vollies to supplement but not all have vollies. 2) Every department has recalls. Members use either their personal cell phones to receive the request OR have a Minitor pager. 3) There is no requirement to come back for duty. Some members use recall as their 2nd job and come in a lot, others don't come in at all and may have their own business such as plumber or carpenter. 4) Many departments have no residency requirements and they work 24 on/ 24 off / 24 on / 5 days off. This leads to members living 45 minutes away in a different county and they are not even in a position for recall. 5) Most departments have a recall hierarchy. Example: If Group 1 is on-duty, then Group 2 may be the primary recall group. The first request goes to them. If no one calls in within 2 minutes, then Group 3 is the secondary recall group. They get paged out and if no one calls in within 2 minutes, then a recall for all groups is sent out. Usually these requests go out for a certain number of members. Example: 3 needed for station coverage and the first 3 to call in get the coverage. 6) Structure fire calls go to full-department recalls immediately and then it's a "you all come." Anybody and everybody can respond. 7) One disadvantage to the whole system is that there may be 2 or 3 calls for station coverage during the day and people are quick to jump on that. They get their hours in and then they turn off their phone/pager at night. Recalls for manpower after midnight and this includes structure fires will usually get very minimal recall. There was a nursing home fire (contained to one room) at 3 AM and a 2nd Alarm was struck. Only 2 off-duty members came in to help out. This department did not have vollies. Mutual Aid was used almost exclusively. 8) My only complaint is that many of the department members don't want more people hired because that would cut into their recalls. The more people on-duty, the less need for recalls. But then they cherry-pick their calls and you may have 10 off-duty members show up for a 2 pm fire and only 2 members show up to a 2 am fire. Unfortunately it's all about them and their bottom line. There seems to be less and less commitment to coming in when "the poop is hitting the fan." As for me, if a 2nd Alarm is struck, I feel a moral obligation to get up and respond no matter what time of day or night. It's the system that's been set up and some effort should be given in responding "for the good of the community." They seem to want it both ways, "If it's convenient for me and I'm short on funds I'll go. If it's not convenient then I won't go." In my area it's only a matter of time before the public becomes dissatisfied with the response to some pretty serious calls and manpower per shift will have to be increased. 9) Departments in my area are staffed with anywhere from 3 on-duty to 12-on duty. The smaller departments will recall 3 for coverage once units are committed (car fire, MVA, etc.). The larger departments won't recall until available manpower falls below a certain number, 6 as an example. 10) Vollies only used for full-department recalls, not for station coverage and not to fill open shifts.

I noticed the same thing about the air packs being left exposed to the crew compartment. I must have watched it 3 or 4 times and was thinking that there must be roll-down doors which they had raised for the video. I froze the video at 2:43 and it doesn't look like there any doors. If there are no roll-down doors then I think it would be more dangerous as the average gung-ho firefighter might unbuckle his/her seatbelt, stretch-over and reach in to get the air pack in an effort to get ready to fight the fire. Very curious.... Overall I think they did a great job in designing the truck.

This is a short 3-minute video which I think is very educational. I've read and heard both sides of the argument about getting inside a fire and pushing the fire from the unburned side to the burned side. I've read and heard about transitional fire attack and the SLICE-RS concept about putting water on the fire as soon as you can and "reset" the fire; even if it's from the outside. Both arguments seem to have merit and it is very situational dependent. But watch this video and what happens when the firefighter puts water on the fire from inside the bus. The smoke, heat and steam obviously get pushed down to floor level or in this case even to ground level. It's a great video for really seeing the products of combustion being pushed. So I pose the question for discussion: Is it better to knock down the fire from any angle to reset it and cool the BTU's even though you may be pushing products of combustion on to trapped occupants, or is it better to take the extra time to get the hoseline in position by, for example going around to the backdoor, forcing entry and pushing the fire right out the living room picture window?

I have a friend who is a school bus driver and school bus driver instructor - that's what got me started with this thread. antiquefirelt - As a point of interest, the back emergency door can be opened from outside. But you bring up a good point of how to manage everything when it's one adult and especially 30 grade school kids!! This is the biggest challenge for bus drivers and from what my friend tells me, a lot more time is spent in their training on walking through how to evacuate a bus full of grade school kids, although they still go over evacuation for middle school & high school in training. I've attached two videos, each about 5 minutes long. The first one is a video that she shows to new candidate drivers as an introduction to safety and evacuation. The second one is a video made for the kids. They show it every year to 5th, 7th and 9th graders early in the school year. They don't show it to grade school kids as they don't want to frighten the kids and a lot of the stuff they're talking about (reaching certain handles) the little kids couldn't reach anyhow. So it's been thought through and hopefully the kids have been executed should you pull up on any school bus emergency. For new drivers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy5aZwsGm8M For students (a little corny but it could save lives!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNbld-7QJ7s

antiquefirelt - BINGO. You hit the nail right on the head with regard to transitional fire attack/SLICE-RS. I remembered about the straight stream but I reviewed videos on it and I realize I forgot a lot of the principles of that technique. I have never had the opportunity to try it on the fireground - it's usually food on the stove or a foundation job! provfd - I too thought about chocking the wheels before the engine even appeared in the video. Jybehofd - I agree that it may have been a little risky going in the bus, but I have to admit he achieved a quick knock down. The Navy nozzle has been relegated to the backroom, but that would be a good use for it. Overall an impressive video in my opinion!

This is a great thread. I'm not up on my foam operations but after reading this thread and doing some research it's helped a lot! Thanks

How old is the current communications center? It seems odd they would build a brand-new backup center and just have it sit there. Is the old center bigger and perhaps this will be just a scaled down center to use in an emergency? $3 million doesn't seem like a lot of money, so my guess is it doesn't have all the bells and whistles like a break room, kitchen, showers, or even a spot to pull out bunks. But the idea is a solid idea no matter what the set-up. Many places don't have a solid back up plan.

Okay, letsgo1547, I'll start by saying I respect your opinion but don't necessarily agree with it. There are challenges to overcome in doing anything new. All in good fun I'm going to put you on the spot: The County of Putnam calls you and tells you they are looking for a full-time Putnam County Fire Chief who will oversee, coordinate, organize, centralize and even consolidate where necessary. They are going to give you $160,000 a year, with a car, full medical benefits and you'll go into the retirement system. Pretty tough deal to pass up I would think. So, now you're it. What do you do and how do you set things up? Nothing is off the table here, you have a clean slate. You can mandate a policy that restricts any type of rescues or tech-rescues all together - don't even dispatch them. You can transition to a County Fire Department and find a source of funding to hire career people (maybe a SAFER grant?). You can sell all the rescues because they're not needed and no one is qualified to use them and buy 10 additional tankers. It's your ballgame and the Commissioners are giving you full power and the authority to back it up. So what do you do? Ready? GO.......

I guess my only question to all the Naysayers is what other option is there? I suppose you could call another county mutual aid for a tech-rescue team but that would take time. I don't know the financial status of Putnam County or it's towns, but it sounds like if they are going to hire career firefighters to cover even the basic calls because of lack of manpower they need to concentrate on the basic daily responses with the career staff before creating a tech-rescue team. So let's assume it's a horrible, terrible, dumb idea to create the tech-rescue team with volunteers from the departments within Putnam County. No-way, no-how!! They'll buy people cool t-shirts anyhow to appease the 75% of the people who are in it for that. So there is nothing. Now, let's take the example of the construction worker who is up to his neck in a collapsed trench. Time is an important factor here. The call goes out to the local department at 1pm on a Tuesday afternoon. The first-due engine pulls up and has 3 on-board (Joe who is retired truck driver, Tom who is Captain and works in the local deli, and Sue who is an EMT). None of these members have experience or training in any type of tech-rescue. So they walk up to the guy who's buried and do what? There is no Putnam County team to request, mutual aid tech-rescue is too far away to be of any good, and the engine crew is not up to the task. The captain tells the worker there's nothing they can do for them and the crew climbs back on the engine and returns to quarters. That, of course, is ludicrous!!! If there were a tech-rescue team, this is probably an incident they could handle. Sure the response might not be immediate, but in the meantime another department could be called in mutual aid to the scene to have manpower there and perhaps at least stabilize the scene until tech-rescue shows up. I know nothing of tech-rescue, but perhaps boards could be built up around the worker so more dirt doesn't fall on him. Maybe the EMT could get close enough to slip an O2 mask on the guy. Maybe they could prepare the scene by moving dump trucks and other vehicles out of the immediate area to give the tech-rescue team clear access to the scene. Maybe they could lay out tools on a tarp which the tech-rescue team might need (shovels, pails, ropes, etc.). So I ask the people who are against this, what are the alternatives? Not go? Go but then return? Have Lawn-Chair 1 respond so they can put out lawn chairs and tables and serve lemonade and sandwiches while they watch the guy die? Very simple solution which I stated before: 1) If it's a minor situation like a child has his hand stuck in a bicycle chain, the first due engine can most likely handle that. 2) If it's a more serious incident like a guy buried up to his neck in a trench, the first due engine assesses the situation, calls for the tech-team, calls a mutual aid engine and tries to at least stabilize the scene and cause no further harm. 3) If the tech-rescue team arrives on location and it's a guy down an abandoned 200 foot deep well that is caving in, the tech-rescue team may decide they need heavier equipment and call additional tech-rescue teams and call on the private industry who has the equipment to deal with this. Perhaps they would have to dig a hole 50 feet away and then tunnel in to get him out. A very extended operation. But, the first due engine identifies the problem and calls for help. They immediately cordon off the zone so no one else falls in or loosens anything else which will fall in. They ascertain the number of victim(s), age(s), medical condition(s), etc. When the tech-rescue team shows up they realize they will need help and call for another tech-rescue team and ABC Drilling & Well Company. Perhaps the tech-team can feed a camera with audio down the hole to see if the person(s) are conscious and evaluate the situation. Who knows, maybe they could even snake an O2 mask down to the victim(s). The tech-team realizes its going to be an extended operation (perhaps 24 hours) and they set up a Planning & Logistics section and create an operational period chart. They may even call in an Incident Management Team. It comes down to common sense, training, experience and knowing when "this is bigger than we can handle" be it the first due engine or the tech-rescue team. To do nothing you might as well nail the doors shut on the firehouse and have everyone volunteer at the local food bank; which by the way offers cool t-shirts too!!

I like it - sharp looking truck. I'm not crazy about politicians putting their names on vehicles.