Dinosaur

Tall enough? Ever see a wind driven brush fire? Tall isn't the issue, wind velocity is the issue!!!

Very few. Contrary to the rhetoric we're all understaffed (career and volunteer) and not experienced with this type of fire in most areas. Very very few I'm afraid. We don't spend a lot of time on these types of structures and we don't go to these buildings and drill because we're afraid of scaring the residents or some other nonsense. Well if you order them early enough in the day and have them shipped priority overnight, you should have them by the next day at 1030. Seriously, the mutual aid system in Westchester is flawed. 60 doesn't know what resources are in service or out of service and they don't dispatch them all, even in a disaster. Other counties with centralized 911 are better but still behind the 8-ball because there's no standardization or coordination. We'll never know. There is no consistency from day to day or hour to hour. We hope (and sometimes pray) that we get a good turnout from the volunteers and most career jobs are barely staffed for a really cookin' room and contents job so our guess is as good as theirs. Hempstead did do a good job with this one. And they were lucky. 4 or 5 AM and the building would have had a lot more people in it.

Confused. Do you mean that there would be more fires if farmers were not allowed to burn or there would be fewer fires if the were not allowed to burn????

Holy crap, why is the font in my last post so small?

We need to effect a fundamental change in the fire service because large or small, career or volunteer, we're in trouble. Either from budget woes or declining volunteerism because everyone has to work more and more just to make ends meet. Call it a revolution, call it a charter revision, call it a constitutional convention, call it Westchester 2025 (although it certainly isn't unique to Westchester) but we have to start the change or we're going to sit and stagnate for another generation. Elmsford was able to get one fully staffed engine to a building collapse after a tornado while returning from another call. Good for them. The problem remains that we had different departments, with different qualifications respond with different resources and we expect them all to integrate into an effective seamless operation despite having different SOPs, experience, and leadership. Not a recipe for success. I was recently at a social event attended by many FD officers, mostly chiefs, from a really good cross-section of the fire service (Current, retired, volunteer, career, young, old, even thin and fat ). I really should have taken a picture but to protect the guilty, I didn't. Over several adult beverages we were discussing our issues and don't ya know they were all the same. Budget, staffing, meeting standards, etc.etc.etc. You can't tell me that the career and fire ISSUES are so different that we can't collaborate and solve them creating a better fire service for the future. FFCogs said it in his letter to the editor about the Stamford situation. We have to identify the goal and move toward it objectively and in the best interests of the public we serve. Not the best interests of one special interest group or another (and I'm sorry to say that the volunteer fire sector is as much a special interest group as unions are - maybe moreso). One interesting revelation at this airing of the grievances (for all you Seinfeld fans), was that officers are still firefighters and have to perform that way. One chief related a recent experience where there was a good size structure fire (more than room and contents to be sure) and several mutual aid departments. They didn't have enough FF on scene and wound up calling more departments. The next day he was shown a picture of his "command post" where there were TEN (count 'em 10) white helmets and turnout coats standing around him. In the heat of the moment, he never considered it but he had TWO companies there with him that never got used for actual firefighting. He says, in hindsight, he should have tasked most of them with tactical assignments or fireground supervision jobs instead of having the coffee clatch at his ICP. We all laughed but hesitantly because we've all probably done similar things in the past. Officers also have to be willing to lead by example and get the job done. If more started doing that instead of fighting to protect their sinking ship, we'd probably see conslidation and reorganization start to take hold. Here endeth the lesson (yes, I have been watching entirely too many old movies lately!).

In what is becoming an entirely too common theme of government, Rockland County may make drastic and draconian cuts to County agencies to reduce a major budget deficit. On the radio today, they also mentioned a downgrade in the county's bond rating because of that deficit. http://www.lohud.com/article/20120510/NEWS03/305100077/Rockland-leaders-may-carve-sheriff-parks-veterans-agency-massive-budget-cuts?odyssey=obinsite I'd like to know what the state is doing to reduce these "mandates" that account for 2/3-3/4 of every county's budget.

What is the call volume in the area you're referring to? How many ambulances and crews are there in that area? How many simultaneous calls are received in general? How many of the simultaneous calls are received while a primary unit is on a lift assist? How many of the simultaneous calls received while on a lift assist are a serious MVA or cardiac? I'm willing to bet that there are no answers to these questions and because we can play "what if" forever, there's got to be some common sense involved here somewhere. What happens when your lift-assist call is actually due to a stroke or heart attack but the information isn't properly reported to 911? What happens when you're on a BLS accident call and an ALS medical emergency comes in? A lift assist without any symptoms/complaint is a lift assist and strikes me as a BLS call. Why a medic is sent to that is beyond me but then again we still have agencies that are sending their medics on every call regardless of nature. But that's another thread. Bottom line is we have to stop acting as if we can pick and choose what we respond to. Someone calls 911 and they get us whether its for a stubbed toe, smoke /CO alarm, burglar alarm or a cardiac arrest, structure fire, or robbery.

Wow. Maybe you should make sure that your department is perfect and doesn't ever need assistance from anyone because I'm sure we'd all like to reciprocate your goodwill and community spirit.

I think it is disgraceful that people claiming to be emergency service professionals think that lift-assist calls are "nuisance" calls or the people who call 911 seeking assistance for a loved one shouldn't receive the best possible care possible. 99% of the time a lift-assist is a perfect public relations call. You get to be the hero and restore normalcy to someone who is in distress and needs your help. You're also helping taxpayers who are paying for your service? How can you collect tax money from someone and then decide not to help them when they call? As for "taking a unit out of service" when another call drops, what kind of call volume do most volunteer agencies have? What's the turnaround time on a lift-assist? You can't pick grandma up off the floor and move on to the next job? What the heck are you doing?

Of course they have mutual aid. From another small, understaffed department some distance away. An IC did what an IC is supposed to do. He managed an incident with the resources he had available. If these guys were in DPW or Highway Department uniforms this discussion wouldn't have lasted this long (unless they used blue lights to get there). Why are you being so nitpicky? There's nothing left to see in this topic. It's all the same BS rhetoric.

Did anyone go to part 1? Is this valuable training?

Does anyone know why they do this warm-wash three days after the exercise? Does anyone even show up after that much time?

There are other departments with large bodies of water and no dive team. Yorktown made a commitment to something because it made sense (given the water in the Town) and their ability to perform the mission. This is to their credit. Not every can or should have a dive team, or haz-mat team, or technical rescue team. We can't be experts in everything.

The IC used FF from another department. They happened to be working for the State Police at the time. So what? This was in rural Columbia County. They don't have the luxury that we have of being able to push the button and getting more help so we shouldn't criticize them for using the help that's available on scene. Time to move on to the next topic, nothing to see here.

The water rescue teams are located where their sponsors are based. For example the County Technical Rescue Team is located in Valhalla. That's pretty centrally located. Yorktown, Somers, Mahopac Falls all have water rescue teams because those departments have committed to the expense, liability and obligations of sponsoring a specialty team. Do you think Yorktown should base their team in Mamaroneck just because Mamaroneck is on the Sound? Not everyone can be all things to all people. Leave the specialties to the departments willing and able to make the commitment to them. Not just doing them because its "cool" or they want the new patch.

Some volunteer companies have a hard time running day to day operations and now you want them to take on special team responsibilities also? That's ridiculous. Who is handling special ops kinds of jobs without calling in specialty resources? The problem isn't getting them called on more, the problem (thankfully) is that we don't have dozens of these calls in Westchester County. Adding to the number of special teams only makes it that much harder to maintain any level of competence since training is the only way to stay sharp in the absence of real calls. There are special decon units throughout the county and I don't think they've been used once in the 7-8 years that they've been out there. There is a foam resource in White Plains or Fairview that hasn't been called more than a couple of times in the years that its been out there. Yorktown has a SCUBA/water rescue team already. The County coordinates the haz-mat and technical rescue teams out of DES but unless I've been misinformed, the teams are made up of volunteers from across the county. Sounds like the 1980's and everyone wanting haz-mat teams again. There are only a few haz-mat teams in the region for a reason. The call volume simply doesn't support having them everywhere. I don't seen any justification for this other than feeding some egos and watering down the capabilities of the existing teams.

Before I retired I went to some of these in a couple of these big drills in a couple of different capacities and you're right. The airport needs to make its emergency preparedness less of meeting a requirement and more about getting people ready for such a response. Just doing a big exercise every couple of years isn't enough. They need to do regular drills and focus on the areas of weakness so we really have a good response when something bad happens. Doing this every two or three years may satisfy the FAA but it won't really do much for the victims in a real disaster.

So they were volunteer FF's. That answers a question earlier in this thread and eliminates the issue of them not "being qualified". If they were from DPW or the town or village or any other employer we'd expect them to drop their regular duties and respond as a volunteer FF. But because they were troopers we criticize them. No place is better at making this hypocrisy more obvious than EMTBravo. Interesting perspective. I guess you're right. Nobody should lift a finger to help their community and if a volunteer FD can't muster an appropriate response, they should immediately be shut down and replaced with career FF no matter the cost, no matter what. Very narrow minded position you have!

Central database for LOSAP records? Ha! Some FD's don't even report their training and fires/incidents to NYS. You think they're going to share financial information that may expose the real cost of their services?

What should happen when contract expires? Should all the terms of the contract go out the window? That forces both sides to start from scratch each and every time. My old job never negotiated in good faith and allowed contracts to expire (not just with my union but with all of the unions) and then waited it out - either for arbitration or another budget year. In the meantime they banked the money for raises and benefits and kept the interest. Hmmm... If you think step increases and longevity (for those that still have it) are what's breaking the bank you're way off base. If you think that the financial problems in our local governments can be fixed in this lifetime without a revolution you're way off base. If the Triborough Amendment is repealed, then so should be the Taylor Law that prohibits police and fire from striking. Maybe the threat of a police or fire strike would keep the political hacks at the negotiating table. You seem to be flip-flopping from one side to the other in your post. They're killing any incentive at all to enter police or fire jobs. They want us to take pay cuts, contribute more to our pensions and healthcare, and work until we're older and older and then receive less in pension benefits than someone in one of the earlier tiers. I'm all for negotiating reasonable contracts but if Cuomo thinks forcing a cop or firefighter to work untilt they're 62 is going to save any money he's out of his mind. More line of duty injuries and deaths as this workforce ages will negate any savings. It sucks and there's no relief in sight. We're all painted to be selfish, greedy, do-nothing pigs gorging ourselves at the public trough. Sure there are some ridiculous examples of pension padding but by and large the pension program works.

I didn't take your post as bashing Nyack or anybody else. The article could definitely have been a little clearer and the first thing the guy suggested could have been something firematic instead of throwing a party with the penalty money. Geez, talk about a stupid thing to say in this economy. We're going to fine you for having two false alarms and throw a party with the money. Duh, that's no good for public relations either. If Nyack is doing 1000 runs a year and 40% are false alarms that's only a little more than one per day. How does that really impact vehicle wear and tear and fuel in a small district like the Nyacks? My old job sent either 2 and 1 or 1 and 1 plus the duty chief to an alarm. Not really that big a deal.

There are a couple of different issues here. One is the issue of repeated false alarms. Besides Nyack Hospital, the article doesn't really say how many repeat offenders there are so the problem may or may not be solved by fines or penalties. If there are 100 different places having one false alarm a month, there's no fix. The other issue is that of morale. I have to agree with some of the other commments. It's the job. Sure we don't like it but we don't get to pick and choose what we get. We take the good the bad and the ugly. There are lots of ways to avoid this. Designated rostered crews is one way to limit how many people have to get up and respond to an alarm call. The article doesn't say how many of the alarms are received in the middle of the night. My guess is that it is a fairly low number since people don't routinely shower, create dust doing home improvements, or pop popcorn at 3 AM (yah, I know, there's plenty of drunks popping popcorn at 3AM but I still bet its not that many). To all those saying what about the seemingly inevitable apparatus or POV accident responding to a false alarm. There's no greater risk responding to a false alarm than there is responding to a real working fire. The issue with driving is whether or not you do so properly and professionally. If you drive like an a** to a false alarm you probably drive like a bigger a** when you know there's a "job" so it all goes out the window. There was an interesting thread one here a while back about making false alarms training opportunities. There were some good ideas about spending 20-30 minutes to do some training while on even a false alarm call. If 4 out of 10 of your calls are false, you probably have the time to do something valuable. It's all in the initiative of the chief or training officer. bnechis, just curious about how many fires occurred while apparatus was out on another non-fire call?

How does busing rectify that? All we are accomplishing is moving kids all over the city but that doesn't speak to the quality of the education in any of the schools. Shouldn't all schools be sustained so none of them are "failing"? Is it a better idea to bus all the "smart" kids to one school and bus all the "dumb" kids to another? That's no

I'm all for this but do type 1 engines really need to carry 300 feet of garden hose (1 inch)?

Many good points in this post but the one thing I'm going to jump on is agreeing about not sending unnecessary apparatus to calls. Sending two engines and a truck to every car accident is overkill. If there's a fire, send an extra engine. If extrication is required, send the appropriate rescue vehicle. Just sending 2 and 1 to be "standard" is a waste. As for your other points, all valid and good things to ask. The problem is nobody asks at Department meetings. They ask here and other forums where they vent and commiserate about the problems. Who's actually fixing the problems? We need one single standard for FF in NYS and we have to stop calling those who aren't qualified, "firefighter" until they are.