GBFD111

The department in which you are giving mutual aid to, not your original department 

The department in which you are giving mutual aid to, not your original department 

Not sure if this is much help but I was a Mutual Aid member of a Volunteer Fire Department from 2009-2013 when I was in college in Upstate NY. I was already a member of another fire department in Westchester so I had to join their "mutual aid membership." We wouldn't pay annual dues, weren't allowed in meetings nor allowed to vote, but had to abide by all of the same standards as their firefighters, such as physicals, annual interior requalifications, etc. This was perfect as I was able to volunteer and able to serve the community of my college town and did not have to deal with any of the politics or drama from the meetings. As a mutual aid member, I was allowed to use my home department gear or would be issued gear from the mutual aid department. As for insurance, my understanding was that I was covered under the Mutual Aid departments insurance, similar to if you call mutual aid regularly from another department. 

Just leave the state of NY...best thing i've ever done 

Just leave the state of NY...best thing i've ever done 

Just leave the state of NY...best thing i've ever done 

 
Thanks GBFD111.  That's exactly what I was referring to.  I thought the comment was real harsh and was wondering what influenced the comment.  Seemed that maybe a health issue was involved or a lack of working smoke detectors and not something that the FD did or did not do led to this tragedy.  My posting this article and pointing out the comment was to start conversation on the subject and maybe that some extenuating facts left out by the Journal news happened.  Certainly not trying to validate the comment in lohud.  

He is not referring to the article. If you look at the "comment" section there is an individual who wrote this,
 
"The joke is the fact that these hobbyist hero volunteers didn't find him as soon as they got there. The story was changed to say after the fire was out he was discovered. Make sure your smoke detectors work constantly! Put one in every room, heck, put two!" 
 
Who has the audacity to say this crap... Hobbyist volunteers? 

He is not referring to the article. If you look at the "comment" section there is an individual who wrote this,
 
"The joke is the fact that these hobbyist hero volunteers didn't find him as soon as they got there. The story was changed to say after the fire was out he was discovered. Make sure your smoke detectors work constantly! Put one in every room, heck, put two!" 
 
Who has the audacity to say this crap... Hobbyist volunteers? 

While working in St. Lawrence County we used the ambulance as a "flycar" for ALS intercepts all of the time. We would take the on call driver and the ALS and drop off the medic. There were actually many times where we did have to transport in our ambulance due to the other ambulance getting another call while we were on scene so we would handle and transport the ALS call and let the BLS rig go to the BLS call in their district. It worked very well actually. 

It seems like everyone is ignoring the side-by-side example of a consolidated volunteer department that sits right next door to the town in which this fire occurred. The town of Somers and the Town of Lewisboro have very similar constructs but have gone in opposite directions in terms of a consolidated department vs individual departments. Somers is about the same size as the Town of Lewisboro. They have 4 fire houses spread across town but operate as one department, with one chain of command, one set of SOPs, one fire district and consolidated resources. Conversely, in the Town of Lewisboro, they have the Golden's Bridge Fire Department, the South Salem Fire Department, and the Vista Fire Department (and the Lewisboro Ambulance Corps). Each of these departments are completely independent of one another and have their own chain of command, separate Fire District, separate equipment and their own set of SOGs.
In my opinion the consolidated volunteer department makes more sense for the following reasons:
The town of Lewisboro has 3 Mid-Heavy Rescue Units (Counting Rescue 24 may it rest in peace)...All of NYC has 5! The town of Lewisboro has 7+ Chief Vehicles. Each department in Lewisboro has at least 2 "Class A" engines so that they can stay in service when one goes out for maintenance. 90% of the time each engine rolls without a full crew anyway (thats if they can even get two engines out the door) Shortage of Officers. When I joined the fire service 10 years ago Vista Fire Department had 3 chiefs and a multiple captains, Lieutenants and Foremen, etc...now they are down to 3 officers (a chief, a captain, and a lieutenant). I believe that GBFD currently operates with two of their Lt. positions vacant. Moreover, many departments' by-laws are constantly being set aside to allow people who don't meet the professional qualifications to hold office. In many instances, members are being promoted to officer positions after being a member for only a year and having never been first-due to a car fire let alone a structure fire. What it all comes down to here is that you are ultimately going to get the same resources to a fire in both towns. In Somers you will probably get 20-30 members town-wide who will all respond to a daytime incident. In Lewisboro, you will get 10 members from the "host" department and 5-6 from each of the other 2 departments in town via mutual aid.
The differences however are major!
There will be a delay in resources because you have to wait for the host department to get on scene to dispatch mutual aid...they will have to operate with 4-6 people for at least the first 10-15 minutes until mutual aid can respond to their firehouses and then to the scene. There will be way too many Chiefs on scene because there will be 3 from each of the other departments in town...and not enough indians because anyone who is even remotely good will be a chief already (side note...I think Croton Falls had command on this last Goldens Bridge fire and at their firehouse fire last year). The manpower from the three independent departments will be less familiar with the equipment and personnel from the other departments than that of the one consolidated department. 3 sets of SOGs vs one consolidated set. I thought the side-by-side comparison may help clear up the confusion that a consolidated department would have to be paid. The Town of Somers could probably have ended up as the Granite Springs, Amawalk, Lincoldale, and Town of Somers fire departments had they wanted to go that route...for all I know they may have been at some point way back when.

OK where to begin:
Flake the kinks out your hose. in the door is not the time for a nozzle change. Also the combination tip works just fine if thats what you got on the hose. Don't just stand around. 1:00 min mark: don't leave your helmet on the ground and walk away from it. After 2:00 mark, is that sound electric wires arcing or just random background sounds the mic is picking up? don't shoor water at a sparking wire. No communications about venting. I will assume from the looks of things that a inside attack was not going down so it is not like you were cordinationg with a hose team 2:51 min in. Don't do that with your nozzle, ever 3:40 min in. Don't ask for more pressure if you have 20 kinks in your line. Unkink your line. Try not to let the fire get away from you door control Fire - don't just stare at it, put it out. alot of non-fighting going on here. Choose the right size hose for the job. Where is your 2 1/2"? Big fire means big water. OK i know some of these are kinda knit picky but i just gave it a quick watching. I am not gonna say you guys suck or that was horrible cause everyone in the county is working short staffed and heavily rely on mutaul aid. Was this firemen a probie? was it his first job? These are all things that change the way we view these "mistakes" . I would expect a fresh out FF1 kid to not know everything there is to know. He is gonna stand around and wait to be told. A seasoned guy is gonna get it done and move with purpose and speed.
I hope this is seen as constructive. I tried to give real advice and insight. All we can see is a snippit of the whole picture. clearly there is alot going on in this house (as seen form the smoke coming from otehr parts of house).

State: New York
County: Westchester
City/Town/Municipality/Dept: Goldens Bridge FD
Unit designation/identifier: Tanker 1
Status: In Production
Chassis & Body (or Aerial) Manufacturer and model: Spartan/4 Guys
Pump size, tank size (water/foam), aerial type & length:
Estimated delivery date: Spring 2014
Replaces:
Notes: Click here for Spy Shot from 4 Guys Facebook Page

Here are some pictures that I took after the fire.
Here's what was left of the Willy's... what a tragedy

Tarrytowns Former Engine 80 which is now going to be acting as Rescue 24. Sorry for the bad picture quality.

Towing Rescue 24 from the Scene

Gentlemen, I would like to start by thanking anyone who was involved with on scene operations as well as all of you who took the time to bring us refreshments and food during our definite time of need. While I was not on scene, I would like to try to clarify some of the still foggy details.
1.) @RWC130, Engine 138 was successfully removed from the building before any damage was sustained. That goes for E-139, E-140, and T-1 as well. R-24 was badly burned and while it's not been deemed a total loss yet, it's in bad shape. We did lose 2142, a 2006 Chevrolet Suburbam 2500 as well as ex-2143, a 1998 Chevrolet Suburban 2500.
2.) @JM15, Mack your somewhat correct. We do currently have a tanker in the final/paint stages at 4Guys and we were visiting for pre-paint inspection. Myself and 3 others attended. Truck looks phenomenal, once I'm done here I'll post a few pics.
3.) Our tanker was full until, like GBFD111 said, an ex chief deployed the contents into the 1st arriving Porta-Pond. Standard practice is to leave the tanker full in quarters in preparation for an alarm, we're no different, our tanker stays full.
4.) The alarm system was functioning properly and it did activate. The original call was for a commercial alarm. Anyone who has any doubts regarding this fact, pm me your cell numbered I'll be glad to send you the ipage.

The tanker was NOT empty. A past chief dumped the water right away into a porta-tank.
The smoke detectors were working just fine

Date: 02/24/2014
Time: 09:54
Incident Type: Structure Fire
Location: 254 Waccabuc Road (Route 138)
District: Goldens Bridge
Units: (See Below)
Description: Goldens Bridge Firehouse is on fire, 2nd alarm, heavy fire in the cockloft, going defensive
Report of firefighter inuries, can not confirm at this time.
Weather: Windy, 30 degrees
Writers: x1234, x635, RWC130, x4093k, firedude

Updates:
1043hrs: B16 reporting main body of fire knocked down. Partial building collapse.
1345hrs: Per officials, only one firefighter injured during evacuating apparatus, transported to NWHC with minor injures-smoke inhalation. Treated and released. No other injuries reported.

Dept's Operating: Units Operating: Note:
Goldens Bridge FD
South Salem FD Engine 167, Tanker 2, Utility 79
Somers FD Engine 180, Tanker 16
Croton Falls FD Engine 148, Engine 149, Tanker 8 Engine 148 master stream in operation
Vista FD Tanker 4
Bedford Hills FD Tower Ladder 57, Tanker 5, Utility 6 Tower ladder in operation
Mount Kisco FD Utility 13 FAST
Katonah Tanker 6, Utility 8
Brewster FD Engine 11-2-3,Tanker, LDH Hose Reel Unit 5" LDH Hose Reel truck sent with Tanker
Westchester EMS 45-M-1, 45-M-2, 45-M-4
North Salem VAC 72-B-2
Lewisboro VAC 67-B-1, 67-B-2, 6701
WCDES Batt 16, C&O Team, County Car 1, County Car 2, OEM 5, 60 Control Fieldcom
NYSP
Lewisboro PD
WCPD WCPD Officer John Peters w/ K-9 partner Daisy (Arson Detection Dog)

Covering Goldens Bridge
Katonah FD Ladder 39 and Engine 116 Other Katonah units operating on scene/ stood by in area of GBFD Firehouse
Covering Katonah
Yorktown Heights FD Engine 273 At Katonah FD HQ
Covering Croton Falls FD
Mahopac Falls FD At Croton Falls HQ

From the Port Chester FD Facebook page:

NY state law says that the district REQUESTING the mutual aid is liable for damage to any equipment/apparatus that it requested, and the district GIVING the mutual aid is liable for the personnel. For example the, North Fire District has a worker, and they call the South Fire District for mutual aid. While enroute (or on scene or while returning), the SFD apparatus gets into an accident. The NFD is 100% responsible for the apparatus (cost of repair/replacement/etc) The SFD is 100% responsible (workers comp etc) for their personnel.

Actually I am pretty sure that it's fairly standard, well down in NY at least. Also I don't think it has anything to do with the mutual aid agreements, I think it is mostly driven by the insurance side of things. The requesting department is responsible for the cost of any of the mutual aid departments equipment damaged while operating at an incident in their district. I am not certain about personnel but I am fairly certain they are still covered under their own department and either way have equal protection under the states benefit laws and workers compensation.

Breezly,
You are missing the overall point of what this initial post is saying. The topic here is consolidation within the fire districts that we live in, not to put down any department, individuals, etc. Relating to the fire that you are speaking of, I personally was not there because I have moved away but as most people know there is more gossip and rumors that go around a fire house, or firehouses, then a teenage girl in high school.
Anyway, going back to the topic in hand...
I have recently moved away from Westchester County and I am seeing this issue that RES24CUE has brought up in the department I am affiliated with in St. Lawrence County. We though are on the other end of it. Many of these rural departments near us can practically NEVER get a rig out of service and always depend on us for mutual aid. First off, if we go to one of these departments (which do not have a lot of money) and crash one of our rigs THEY will have to the cost of it. This will indubitably create tension between firehouses. One of these rural departments I have heard had to borrow money from the town to put new bay doors on their barn, I mean station so they can keep fixing their trucks they never use. Now what happens when we have an serious call in our district when our apparatus is covering what you can't handle? Call mutual aid again?
Some of these departments only have maybe 15-20 fireman and are on the outskirts of our township, maybe 6-7 minutes away. If we consolidate these departments we can consolidate all of our resources, and have nicer toys to break.
Its sad to say but I am seeing a full volunteer fire department a thing of the past. Here in Canton, moving towards the Ambulance side, we now have a paid ALS provider for our ambulances between 6AM-4PM Monday through Friday, and have been relying on volunteers to drive. All other hours of the day is solely volunteer ran both BLS and ALS. This worked for a while but during the regular work day it can be hard to get drivers and people who can volunteer their time for an hour and a half, praying that there will not be another call right before you get back in service that you will get forced into taking. Now as a department, we are talking about hiring a paid driver during the day and to be all volunteer during the evenings.
We need to start looking into consolidation between departments, using money that we will save in rig costs as well as other budget cuts, to cover larger fire district with paid adequate manpower during the day. One can make the argument of "well you aren't going to get there faster." What is better, having a fully staffed rig and taking a little longer to get there, or having a half staffed rig exceeding what they can initially handle. After the work day ends, let volunteers come and volunteer within their community that they are proud of serving.
Thoughts?

They do not attend, they do not vote, they do not volunteer, they don't want their taxes spent on it and they believe that they will never need to call 9-1-1. And as they dial 9-1-1 they pray to god that the PD, FD, EMS are well trained, properly staffed and equipped and they respond instantly.
How often have we heard it took 40 minutes for them to respond (while the tape shows 4 minutes)?
And with the me attitude that is growing, it will only get worst.

It seems like there has been great debate recently about consolidation. The volunteer side of the business is trying their best to avoid forced consolidation with other neighboring departments to reduce the costs to the taxpayer caused by overlap of services/equipment. Volunteers argue that free labor saves taxpayer dollars (salaries/benefits/pensions) and that the long history and tradition of the volunteer fire service should supersede the seemingly decreasing quality of the services that we are seeing in many local departments (multiple dispatches, low manpower, etc.).
The paid side of the fire service believes that consolidating fire departments and hiring paid firefighters will reduce costs and increase service and consistency. They argue that municipalities could close a number of firehouses strategically and staff remaining departments with full-time paid firefighters. They contend that doing so would reduce costs to the taxpayer because they would be able to maintain the same response times as volunteer departments with fewer firehouses and pieces of fire apparatus (spares, specialty pieces, etc.). Regardless of the cost, the quality of service to the taxpayer would undoubtedly increase because residents would be guaranteed to receive a consistent response by well-trained, professional personnel regardless of time of day.
NOW...THE FIRST PART OF THIS WAS MERELY AN INTRO AND NOT THE TOPIC THAT I PRESENT WE DISCUSS. I KNOW THAT THIS ARGUMENT IN AND OF ITSELF IS A HIGHLY CONTENTIOUS ISSUE THAT WE HAVE SEEN BEATEN TO DEATH COUNTLESS TIMES ON THIS SITE!!!
It has been my observation that many Northern Westchester fire departments are self-consolidating with other departments in recent months...
Bedford Fire Department gets dispatched with Bedford Hills, Mount Kisco, and Katonah Fire Departments Automatically upon a report of any type of structure fire (Chimney, Oven, etc.).
Vista and South Salem FIre Departments are on an automatic mutual aid for any inside smoke investigation/reported structure fires within either one of their districts.
Most recently, Golden's Bridge Fire Department is on automatic mutual aid with Croton Falls Fire Department for all Firematic Calls within their fire district.
All of these mutual aid agreements occur upon the REPORT of an incident prior to any CONFIRMATION.
Now, regardless of the monetary aspect of the debate, it seems as if many of the departments that would be the first to be placed on the chopping block if consolidation did occur are consolidating themselves in order to get the job done. These departments are increasingly forced to consolidate their services due to dwindling manpower and an inability to staff pieces of apparatus in a timely fashion and on a regular basis.
Now, I come from the volunteer side of the business and it was a passion of mine for 10 years. However, it seems to me that if you are going to send twice the number of rigs (all with half of the seats empty) from multiple fire departments to the same call to get the job done, then why don't they just put the firehouse in the middle, ride the same rig, and fill all the seats.
Is this what is slowly starting to happen?
Does anyone else see the hypocrisy in this?

Not to start a fight, I train as many vol ff's as I do career, BUT these statements by you fellows are why the career side pushes so hard for equality in training, to call yourself a firefighter, officer or chief. Look whats happening, A officer wants to change things for the better, and he is voted out. The fire service is in a lot of trouble, it is time to wake up.

Date: 21 November 2013
Time: Since the top of the hour
Incident Type: MVA Rollover, 5 Parties Entrapped, Truck Rollover
Location: Route 35 and Adam Hill Road
District: DEPT 245 - South Salem
Units: South Salem FD, Katonah FD, Vista FD, LVAC, WEMS, STATFlight, WCDES BATT 13
Description: MVA Rollover with multiple parties entrapped, all WEMS medics requested, addtl ALS ambulance from northern westchester, BATT 13, and STATFlight requested. Ambulette overturned multiple trapped, aircraft delayed due to frost.
Expedite requested on the helicopter, eta approx 15 minutes
Per BAT 13: heavy extrication on pt being airlifted, heavy extrication on a pt in the second vehicle as well, second pt. being worked on as well.
Per IC: All Pts removed from the first vehicle, still working on the second.
Per IC: All pts from second vehicle removed as well
Per Engine 141: Flight crew is on the ground, enroute to scene
67B1 enroute to LZ, 2452 situation U/C at 09:02hrs, holding all for cleanup, duration of incident 56 minutes
Per BATT 13: Engine 141 is being held in SSFD HQ to cover district during cleanup