bad box

The first 13 years that I was on the job we wore 3/4 length (pull up rubber boots), a 40" long nomex turnout coat, a leather 'New Yorker' helmet (the kind that was actually fitted to the shape of your head) and OSHA approved gloves (when I was first hired we wore hardware store yard work gloves: leather palm, cloth back). There were lot's (and lot's and lot's ...) of burn injuries every year but most were 1st & 2nd degree (ears, neck, thighs, knees). Often, the nozzleman was the one who would get burned due to the scalding water and debris that would come down and get his thighs (the coat would ride up and the top of the boots would bow out while advancing the line into the fire area and 'duck walking'). Of course there were occasions where a catastrophic event would result in critical or fatal burns but that was the exception and quite frankly similar injuries would have resulted even if bunker gear was in use. When word came that we would be issued bunker gear and hoods, we weren't as concerned about our own ability to sense how deep to go when conducting a search as we were about that of newly appointed firefighters who had never operated at fires prior to the entrance of bunker gear into the job. We knew from experience what the fire was doing because we had operated for so long wearing the 'old gear' where we had been afforded the opportunity to feel as well as see changing conditions where the new firefighters started their careers wearing the 'snowsuits'. The incidents of minor burn injuries went down while the number of serious and fatal burn injuries went up. The fatalities were sometimes due to folks venturing in too deep due to being insulated from their environment (other times they were the result of catastrophic, unforeseen events such as structural collapse caused by faulty building renovations). The non-fatal but serious burn injuries (requiring a stay in the burn center) were often due to the newer firefighters not flushing the floor prior to advancing the line after knocking down fire coupled with them crawling rather than 'duck waking'. Flushing the floor cools the superheated debris that has landed there after the stream has dislodged it from the walls and ceiling. Crawling rather than 'duck walking' causes the layers of fabric in the knee area of the bunker pants to become compressed which eliminates the air that's trapped between each layer of fabric thus defeating the insulating protection offered by the layers of material. The problem of firefighters being trapped in flashover's seems to have increased dramatically. I believe that much of this is caused by inadequate ventilation, ventilating prior to the charged line being in position and ready to advance on the fire, ventilating too late and failure to ventilate at all coupled with the stretching of inadequate sized attack lines, failure to 'chase all kinks', failure to provided the proper nozzle pressure, failure to keep the nozzle open fully when attacking the fire, fog nozzles getting clogged with sediment and debris during the attack which limits the GPM's and in general failure to know the requirements of the type nozzle that's being used as well as the friction loss of the particular brand and model of hose that is being used (yes folks, friction loss in fire hose can differ greatly!)

Glad to see you back posting here Capt.. Clearly you are not continuing this discussion because you are 'excited' by vehicle fires, rather you [as do I] fully realize that when firefighters start to get comfortable [complacent] with so called 'routine' responses the potential for injuries, uncontrolled fire extension, etc. is increased.

Hi Mike, I didn't consider my comment to be a criticism. When I was on the job we frequently would sit around the kitchen table after a working fire or an unusual emergency and do an informal critique. It was never used as a method of pointing fingers or attaching blame, rather it was used as a learning tool to help us to find the best methods for dealing with the myriad of situations that we as firefighters frequently encounter in our profession. Our goal was to always be prepared to do the best, most efficient job of protecting civilian lives and property while maintaining safe practices at the same time. IMHO the photos and videos of fires and emergencies that appear on this website can prove to be a valuable learning tool. Posters should show respect when making suggestions as well as make sure that you are suggesting procedures, equipment, etc. that is 'tried and true' as opposed to something you have dreamed up and never put to the test at the drill site. Other than that, I think we all need to admit that none of us know it all, always do everything right and can't benefit from a good suggestion now and then. If we want to continue to improve as fire rescue personnel, we'll have to be open to the real world experiences of Brothers who have been there and done that enough times that they have something to offer to the newer generation of folks on the job. Stay safe ...

I know this is '20-20 hindsight', but I think I would have assigned most of the excess personnel on the scene to grab shovels to build a dike using the readily available earth at the scene in order to contain the flow of fuel & apply a foam blanket to the pool of flaming liquid. This would be done rather than using charged attack hose lines to create the dike.

After having spent 21 years as a career firefighter, 17 years as a volunteer firefighter (8 of those years in chief's ranks) and several years in fire equipment sales I would have to say that it's due to misinformation (both from fire service personnel who never did real life field testing of smooth-bore vs. fog nozzles as well as from salesmen with no firefighting background), stubborn chief's who refuse to admit that they may be wrong and the fact that many in today's fire service don't seem to understand that in order to control a heavy volume of fire we must overwhelm it with a large volume of water that will penetrate to the seat of the fire. As was pointed out by antiquefirelt, if you view a photo of a stream from a stacked tip equipped master stream operating side by side with a fog tip equipped master stream both being directed into a heavy volume of fire you will notice that the stacked tip stream is penetrating the fire while the straight stream from the fog tip appears to be making a 90 degree turn away from the fire.

Anytime someone is injured through no apparent fault of their own, I am unable to see humor. I too would enjoy hearing what part of this incident is 'comical'. I wonder what chance (if any) there is of the civilian contracting rabies (if the animal proves to be rabid & if the projectile actually had passed through the animal prior to striking the bike rider) ...

"WTC: In Their Own Words"

It's interesting that the HUMC website states that when one dials 911 to report a medical emergency, "The dispatcher will notify the police and have an ambulance sent to the scene. (Basic Life Support)". If HFD is providing first responder EMS services, why would HUMC completely disregard it?

Will this affect Brewster's participation in the county mutual aid plan from 0600 - 1800 hrs. M - F? Isn't it possible that the surrounding VAC's who also have staffing issues during these hours will cause the Brewster paid crew to be covering many out of district calls at the expense of the Brewster Fire District? ... BTW, I'm totally in favor of VFD's & VAC's having paid personnel on duty to provide immediate emergency response (Fire - Rescue - EMS) during times when insufficient staffing is an issue.

Tragic. Rest in peace Brother. Condolences to his family and fellow Firefighters.

I disagree (I agree with 'Helicopter'& 'billfitz's' statements), however I do feel that way about departments that take most or all of their personnel along with their aerial apparatus or 'heavy rescue' out of district to parades remote from their first due response area ... sometimes in other counties or states. It's difficult to explain to the taxpayers that the $900,000.00 piece of apparatus that you absolutely needed in order to be able to protect a specific target hazard(s) suddenly isn't so vitally important when there's a trophy on the line.

Mike Wilbur is a terrific instructor. He has a tremendous amount of real world experience as a 30 year career Firefighter & Lieutenant in F.D.N.Y. as well as a member of a volunteer department upstate for many years. Any part of a department's training budget that is spent on training given by Mike is money well spent.

This is actually a fairly common response for FDNY. Here's one from the Bronx (late 90's - early 2000). The Firefighter interviewed at the end of the rescue was a member of Rescue 3, not 75 Engine. My link

Good photos, thanks for posting them 'Grumpy'.

According to the LoHud article: "The three firefighters were charged with endangering the welfare of a child, a misdemeanor, and second-degree harassment, a violation, in September." I'm surprised that they aren't facing more serious charges. If found guilty, shouldn't they also be considered registered sex offenders? If the accusations are true, these are sick, disgusting, perverts ... there's no place for this in society, let alone in the fire service.

Either these folks are independently wealthy or they are doing without the necessities of life in order to pay for their massive compliment of courtesy / buff lights. Check these out I'm not sure whether to laugh at or pity them:

If this is the same case that I'm thinking of, the person in question didn't want to retire and was forced out of the job by the department doctors.

My link Condolences to his family and his Brother & Sister Firefighters ... May he rest in peace.

My link

Tragic. Rest in peace Brother. Condolences to family and Brother Firefighters.

"Chicago FD Must Hire 111 Black Firefighters" ... No problem, all it will take is to have 111 black candidates study hard, work out hard and score high on the exam. There is no mystery to a fire department civil service exam, it's all about desire and dedication; if a candidate doesn't have that they don't belong 'on the job'.

How sad to see yet more workers who are paid lower middle class salaries losing their jobs. How about cutting excessive executive compensation first to see how many jobs that would save? If times are tough for the company then those who are paid the most and have the best benefits should give back to the point where they can still afford to live while saving folks who definitely cannot afford to be unemployed from losing their source of income.

One of the great traditions in the fire service is the continued search for better and safer ways to get the job done, be it fire or emergency. Fire departments make use of NIOSH reports (which detail the findings of incidents that resulted in serious injuries or deaths of firefighters) both in formal classes as well as in house training. F.D.'s critique operations upon return to quarters to identify what went well and what (if anything) requires updating, additional training, etc.. F.D.'s perform research and development of new, modified or otherwise improved equipment. Another important tradition is the tradition of 'doing the right thing'. This encompasses everything from making sure all equipment is checked and service ready, to helping out a member's loved one's while he / she is hospitalized, to turning out for wakes, funerals, etc. It's the bond of 'Brotherhood / Sisterhood that helps to keep one pushing in that extra couple of feet when things are going bad fast and someone needs us. There are some things that we do at serious, extremely dangerous incidents that we can only do knowing that everyone is there for you and will die trying to save you if need be.

My link

Your post seemed to speak only of F.D. personnel, thanks for clarifying it for me. While waiting on the civil service list for firefighter, I worked for NYC EMS for three years back when it was part of HHC. Way too many of the EMS employees back then 'hid' from calls (didn't call back in service for extended periods, didn't answer the radio, walked diff. breathers & chest pain pt's. down multiple flights of stairs, transported trauma pt's. from auto collisions in stair chairs rather than taking spinal precautions, I even had a 'partner' who refused to assist me with CPR at the scene of a witnessed (by CPR certified civilians) arrest with civilian CPR in progress... It was not uncommon back then for those members of NYC EMS who gave a s--t about their pt's. as well as civilians who knew how to get help quickly in an emergency to pull the corner fire alarm box or dial the 7 digit # for the FD Boro office. I never found the responding FD personnel to be anything other than professional & helpful (as a matter of fact, over 2,000 FDNY Firemen back then attended EMT training on their days off voluntarily and became certified). Often the FD transported pt's. on their apparatus due to very extended response times for EMS buses. The PD did not provide pt. care & many officers would admit openly that they didn't understand why they were sent on medical calls. I guess it just depends on where you work, I'm sorry to hear of the experiences that you are having in your response area. I can't imagine that any municipality in this day & age would tolerate PD, FD & EMS personnel who refuse to provide the level of care they are certified for. Stay safe ...