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As a middle class, retired civil servant, I could care less about greedy 'professional athletes', CEO's, etc. I have to concern myself with feeding my family and keeping a roof over our heads. These people are out of touch with the middle class. I can't understand how middle class America still idolizes these boobs ...

Well said Capt..The best way to learn and to stay alive as a firefighter is to always keep your eyes and ears open. Respect folks who have valid experience and take advantage of their knowledge. When I first went on 'the job', an 'oldtimer' who had worked in a very busy ladder company for his entire career (including the 'War Years') told me, "Kid, you never stop learning on this job. There's always something new coming along that can affect us. If you ever reach the point where you feel like you have learned everything you need to learn about the fire service and you know it all; you need to make a decision ... either retire or re-think. If you don't do one or the other, you will either get yourself or your Brothers killed." REMEMBER Brothers / Sisters: none of us will ever know it all. You need to be intelligent enough to take advantage of the knowledge of Firefighters who have been around a while and worked in very active areas where they have amassed good skills / knowledge. Stay safe ...

The F.A.S.T. needs to be on the scene early in the operation. In this incident, the F.A.S.T. was not even out the door of the firehouse until 23 minutes after dispatch! The F.A.S.T. is cancelled 28 minutes after dispatch and still is not on the scene. Thankfully, they were not needed for their intended function! This type of scenerio is completely unacceptable ... Remember, the F.A.S.T. can't save trapped Firefighters unless they are on the scene. Date: 00/00/10 Time: 03:55 Location: 507 Anytown Dr. Frequency: Low Band Units Operating: Hooterville FD, Mayberry FAST, Deputy Coord. Weather Conditions: Description Of Incident: Fire in private dwelling. Reporters: Vern Boocanan Writer: Such a fire! 03:58 - Mayberry FAST dispatched. 04:06 - Mayberry FAST re-dispatched. 04:11 - Hooterville Rescue and additional manpower requested to the scene. 04:12 - Mayberry reports crew assembling, will respond soon. 04:12 - Hooterville Rescue Wagon responding. 04:13 - Goober County re-toning Hooterville, Mount Pilot & Muscrat Village VAC for ambulance to fire (and another to a 2nd call in Hooterville). 04:20 - Deputy Coord. on location. FAST not responding still. 04:21 - Mayberry Hose Haulers "FAST" responding. 04:26 - Mayberry FAST cancelled. Battalion 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other returning to the wagon house.

When I lived in N.Y. F.A.S.T. was not part of basic firefighter training for volunteer firefighters. It was a separate course (I think it still is). I don't believe that Firefighter training requirements are the same for volunteers as they are for career firefighters in N.Y.S. (at least they weren't when I lived there). You have the right attitude (and it sounds like your entire department shares that attitude)toward your department's duty when called upon to be the R.I.T.. When done properly, you can be kept quite busy while filling the role of R.I.T.. Stay safe.

That is a shame. The guys back then were 'super star Firemen'. They did more fire duty then any of us could even imagine. Many of them were veterans of WW II, Korea and Vietnam. They had a tremendous work ethic and they put fear in their back pocket while they went about the job of saving lives. While much has been done over the years in the name of 'Firefighter safety', there are some parts of firefighting that can't be inherently safe if we are to be effective in our life saving mission. Many fire chiefs are so paranoid today that they don't let Firefighters do what they are trained and sworn to do, "Protect lives and property". I'm sure there will be some who will remind me that Firefighter's lives count too, and I couldn't agree more. But, there is always a risk when we crawl into a burning building, and that is exactly what we must do if we are to be successful in saving lives and stopping fire spread and subsequently extinguishing the fire. The safety part comes in by us knowing things like: building construction size up what parts of the structure are being impinged upon by the fire? how long has it been burning? what size hose line(s)is / are required? what is the proper nozzle pressure for the type of nozzle being used? the importance of getting the right flow of water going quickly and getting it into the seat of the fire. where and when to vent? how to find your way in and out having multiple means of egress in case the stuff hits the fan (lot's of ladders!) how to look at smoke and get a good idea of what's going on with the fire. There's more, but it's time to get moving for now... Stay safe.

Perhaps I didn't do as good a job as I should have while trying to make some very important points: I am not saying that a career department will necessarily be able to handle a working fire as well as providing it's own F.A.S.T. (depending on size of F.D.). I was saying that common sense dictates that career departments are capable of much quicker responses than volunteer departments that must wait for a crew to arrive at the station prior to starting to respond. ALL Firefighters must be trained in F.A.S.T. operations as a part of their basic (proby school curriculum). It should not be an option. F.A.S.T. is a basic Firefighter function, NOT a Speciality. What is of paramount importance to me is to try to get the message out there that it's essential that volunteer departments explore ways of insuring a rapid response of a crew to fill the role of F.A.S.T. when Firefighters are committed to interior structural firefighting,or any I.D.L.H. environment. SECONDS COUNT when a life is on the line ... there's no room for: "XYZ Fire Co. #1 is still awaiting manpower, time of your 3rd dispatch is 0357 hrs."

Hopefully someday, places like 'Mount Pilot' and 'Petticoat Junction' will become full time career departments. Then we will begin to see response times improve significantly...

I started this thread to once again alert members of the volunteer sector that having a dedicated F.A.S.T. on-scene promptly in the early stages of an interior fire attack is essential for firefighter safety. I also said earlier in this thread that: "As I have stated in previous discussions, EVERY Firefighter must be trained in F.A.S.T. operations, it should not be a option. If every volunteer firefighter is 'F.A.S.T. certified' it will be that much easier to form up a F.A.S.T. in an acceptable time frame (The sooner, the better)." It's most unfortunate, but as I follow the postings I get the feeling that many still don't get the concept that F.A.S.T. IS NOT intended to be a 'special team'. F.A.S.T. is a basic firefighter skill just like hose line selection and Vent - Enter - Search. The mentality of " what we're doing is good enough' or 'we are volunteers, we don't have the time available to train everyone' is unacceptable. There are many functions that members of the the volunteer fire service put untold number of hours into that are nowhere near as important as firefighter safety. Until members of the volunteer fire service truly embrace the fact that firefighter safety and public safety must be THE priority, nothing will change. Stay safe.

You are preaching to the choir in my case.

Common sense dictates that when a volunteer firefighter's pager goes off in the middle of the night and he / she is due to work in the morning that a choice has to be made. For responsible, adult types the only choice is to not respond and go to work. Volunteer responses do not pay the bills and business owners, supervisors, etc. are responsible for making sure that employees report to work on time and provide a full day of work for a day's pay.

I believe years ago that an attempt was made to mandate the same training for all Firefighters regardless of whether they were career or volunteer. If my memory serves me correctly, the national volunteer fire council fought against it as they felt it would put too much of a burden upon volunteers due to the amount of time and commitment required for them to be properly trained.

This is true, unless there is reason to believe that people may be in the structure. In that situation, a rescue attempt is permitted if it's reasonable to do so. This whole 'two in two out' rule presents a problem due to the misinterpretation by many departments. EXAMPLE: I recently saw a career department near where I live, that stood outside and took no action at what was at the time of their arrival a small 'incipient' fire in a an attic over the garage area of a home with a truss roof. The initial crew of two waited for the second unit of two and a B.C. to arrive. All that needed to be done initially was to force an entry door to the garage and from the relative safety of the doorway, pull a section of ceiling to expose the fire and operate a properly supplied stream from a 1 3/4" hose line for a short time. It probably would have completely extinguished the fire, but even if it didn't, it would have darkened it down and stopped it from spreading. Instead, they took no action until the fire 'took off' and eventually completely involved the attic and vented through the roof. They then put their aerial ladder 65' in the air and flowed 1000 GPM down on top of the still mostly intact roof, down into a neighbor's yard (totally destroying their sod) and once in a while into the hole that was belching fire (not the best way to fight an attic fire for sure!) This department totally destroyed a beautiful six year old home as well as all of the personal belongings of the family because they didn't understand 'two in, two out' and had no idea how to control a fire in an attic with wood trusses. Sadly, this is much more common than most folks in the fire service want to believe. OSHA and NFPA have reached the point where they want to make firefighting inherently safe. We must remember there is a fine line between firefighter safety and being totally ineffective of the fire ground.

All good points to be considered '712'. I posted this scenario in an attempt to remind incident commanders (And remember, in the volunteer departments this can sometimes be a responding firefighter who has the most time in the department in the absence of an officer) that the presence of a F.A.S.T. crew at the scene of a working fire is essential for the safety of the firefighters who are committed to interior operations should they become trapped, disoriented, injured, ill, etc. The scenario takes place in the middle of the night prior to a regular workday. This has long been a difficult time to get a 'good turnout' of personnel as many or possibly most of the members of volunteer departments are faced with the decision of, "Do I respond and miss work or do I roll over and catch a few more minutes of sleep before I get up, grab a cup of coffee and head for work?" In light of this type of situation, maybe two departments should be toned out simultaneously and automatically for all working fires ... that way even if neither department gets a full crew, both departments can meet at the scene to form a F.A.S.T. As I have stated in previous discussions, EVERY Firefighter must be trained in F.A.S.T. operations, it should not be a option. If every volunteer firefighter is 'F.A.S.T. certified' it will be that much easier to form up a F.A.S.T. in an acceptable time frame (The sooner, the better). Stay safe Brothers and Sisters.

Take a look at some of the anti first responder comments made by FOX NEWS viewers on their website: My link It shows that all of the rhetoric put forth by Limbaugh, Beck & Hannity as well as ultra wealthy republican politicans is having its desired effect. These mouth pieces are convincing the middle class that civil servants and unions have destroyed the American economy and that we should lose our pensions and benefits. Of course this comes from the mouths of people who are paid yearly more than I could spend in two lifetimes ...

As a registered republican of 34 years, it saddens me to point out that almost every republican member of congress voted against providing for the health needs for those of us who did the right thing on September 11th, 2001 as well as for the months following the worst ever terrorist attack on American soil. The republican party is showing itself to be the party of the ultra rich. They are concerned only with insuring extreme wealth for an elite group. For the middle class: they want to destroy unions and compensate us all like WalMart employees ... minimum wage and little or no benefits. Should I mention that republican Christie Todd Whitman was the head of the E.P.A. at the time and repeatedly declared the air to be "safe" around Ground Zero?

The HME Cab and chasis on the five F.D.N.Y. 1996 Rescues were junk. Electrical problems, alternator fell out of one of the rigs while returning from a run ... coolant had to be added after every 24 hours ... When first placed into service, while responding, they would suddenly not come out of first gear, the rig would have to pull over, be completely shut down, wait 60 seconds and then re-started. There was a long list of problems. I hope the Ferrara's turn out to be good, reliable rigs.

Thank you for your reply.

What a terrible tragedy. Rest in peace Brothers. Condolences to family, Brother & Sister FF's ...

Was the fire confined to just the one back room (3-4 side / top floor)?

Looks like it's going to be a nice rig. I'd rather have a set of irons under my feet in the crew cab than a ladder pipe if I was given the choice though ...

This tragedy occurred a couple of years prior to my getting on the job. I responded to the fire as an EMT. It was a very emotional scene, lot's of off duty Firemen from all over the job came to the incident and assisted. Later in my career as a Fireman, I worked with a member who had fallen through the fire and was burned at Box 3300 on that morning. Thankfully he survived and was eventually able to resume his career. He told me of his experience, it was obvious that it left a lasting imprint in his mind. What a sad day, I'll never forget the event nor will I forget the sacrifice made by these six brave men, as well as the pain and suffering of their families and Brother Firemen.

At times, an F.D.N.Y. Rescue Company has been special called along with a Collapse Unit. In some cases a cargo net has been used, in others a makeshift 'lowering platform' has been constructed from plywood at the scene. A high point anchor was established and a lowering system put in place. At times the actual transport of the patient was accomplished via a large 'box truck'. Situations such as these require Fire and E.M.S. personnel improvise to get the job done.

More PAPD waste: PAPD Minnow I and II

Rest in peace Brothers. Condolences to family and Brother / Sister Firefighters.

Watching many of the youtube fire videos that appear nowadays, it's apparent that many structure fires that years ago would be extinguished using an 'all hands assignment' (1st alarm)in short order now 'get away' often with disastrous results (Mayday's, Firefighters burned and injured while bailing out windows, etc.). Many of these situations can be avoided by adhering to Bread and Butter basics. *Do a good size up looking for type of construction, visible people trapped, location of the fire, is there a cellar / basement, etc. *Stretch the correct sized hose lines commensurate with anticipated fire conditions. *Know the friction loss characteristics of the brand and style hose your department is using as well as the pressure required by the type of nozzle being used in order to provide its maximum flow. *Vent ahead of the attacking hose team ... don't vent until they have water, are in position and tell you they are ready to move in. *Vent - Enter- Search for life hazards. *Ladder the building in multiple locations to give interior firefighters means of egress other than having to jump. *Put the wet stuff (at that correct GPM's) on the red stuff ... Not over the roof into the neighbor's yard, against a blank exterior wall onto the roof shingles, etc. the goal is to overwhelm the main body of fire. Knock down the heavy fire and many of your problems go away. Don't be too proud to admit that maybe you aren't doing the job correctly, open your mind, get out and attend good seminars given by guys who have lot's of experience and know what they're talking about. Strive to be the best at what you do ... Your life, the lives of your Brothers and Sisters as well as the public that you protect are all depending on you to do the right thing ... Be safe ...