TFD141@aol.com

This station would improve their ISO rating in that portion of the fire district, possibly paying for the station through lower insurance costs to each homeowner. Manning could be built up once a station and apparatus are made available nearby. We all belong or have belonged to FD's and should show support when our neighboring brothers & sisters need something passed like facilities and apparatus. Armonk has future bunk rooms built in. There are others that have plans or want to build bunk rooms, but it is hard to spend for future possibilities in this tough economic climate and get it approved by voters. I would suggest you look at the the large increase in a budget before stating to hire career staff. A station costs you once for 10 or 20 years, staffing costs never go down or away. Career versus Volunteer staffing is determined by the number and frequency of calls, obviously YHFD is doing fine with staffing as is.

So is that practice used to circumvent bidding requirements and voter approval? If they have the money they can do what they want? What's the process used to authorize expenditures from a "reserve fund"?
I will say I wish our municipal government had the forethought to maintain reserve accounts, but instead they can't see any further that the next election, so they pass all funding and tax increases off to the next City Council. Of course in our municipal world we'd be required to go to bid and only after approval of the expenditure by the City. Not having a reserve fund ends up with capital purchases coming due during hard times, leading to failed votes to borrow the money, putting of the replacement and "kicking the can down the road".

I would agree he was on his way to the Districts convention in Ellenville and that is a perfectly good use of the vehicle in this case as it is directly on the way up. In the private sector the boss in nearly every corporation is given not only take home privileges, but have drivers. And to say I pay taxes and a corporation is private is not true, I own many corporations through shares of the company and very concerned about how the corporation spends it (my) dollars. My previous employer CEO earned 11 million a year, had a driver and got a 19 million dollar pension...so whats fair??? Some FD's (not mine) allow the use of the car as a reward for doing the job for NO PAY. I can see that as a nearby FD pays several career chiefs over $200k salary, very good benefits, best of pensions, expenses, etc. and they all have a take home vehicle. His counterpart in the very next FD gets no pay, very little or no expenses. So if you look at it can you justify allowing the chief who puts in a LOT of time (both career and volunteer) some perks just like corporations do?? While I fully understand taxes and everything else (perceptions, jealousy, bad hair day, etc), most people outside of the FD pay little or no attention to the chiefs vehicle as they assume he is the CEO of a small/medium//large "corporation" and that is a perk of the job. (My GOD he is the chief!)

My volunteer FD is installing a larger emergency generator (in progress now), new heating system and electrical wiring to better withstand the weather related on/off power problems which caused several problems like burning out our emergency genset. We have the AC detector "hotsticks" on all rigs to detect down wires or unsafe electrical AC situations. We placed a 6x6 polaris with rescue stokes/brush Kimtek unit in service to assist getting around as well as we have a 4x4 utility pickup to get around down tree or off road areas. ( we had to go through woods to a backyard to access a EMS situation as the front street was blocked with down wires), I am qualified 35KVA & 4KVA glove hand line constructor supervisor so we do have live line (hotstick) tools and HV & low Voltage gloves and a Certified Utility Safety Administrator (CUSA) environment, health and safety utility administrator so I have extensive experience on transformer/utility fires and spills (benefit in a volunteer organization that many people bring outside skills to the table, and I invite career depts to request my/our help anytime if they don't have those skills). I agree the hot stick program about 10-15 years ago was not a good plan as the training was minimal at best. I do agree the AC detectors (one brand name also uses "hotsticks" which was a poor choice and they agreed it was a poor choice or names) is good but only with ongoing intensive training on utility systems, wires and equipment. We also have purchased more chain saws ( at least one per rig), pumps and generators. I have been pushing for more member assistance equipment so the firefighters family is in power and therefore not as much a worry to the member firefighter to respond or be on duty. We do storm standbys for the duration of most storms and have beds, food, etc. Our town and police/EMS and FD's have a command post in our OEM center manned during storms and we are getting better each time. We also have community center open for displaced residents. Our town instituted a phone call notification system for all residents to be updated. We are working with town on emergency mobile buffalo style fuel and water tanks. We store more barricade tape and upgraded in-house fuel tanks. We have zodiacs in each FD and split our district up on auto MA caused by river/creeks cutting off temporary access. We have more barricades and cones and traffic signs then ever. We also acquired a mobile flood light and generator. we built a new storage facility to help store the items. We have trench/building shores and lumber stored for collapse possibility. More haz mat materials for spill control in storage. Every FF has a portable which is the same as our trunk portables but also has our high band fireground frequencies with software to go trunk (DES limits the number of trunk portables) if needed in case one trunk goes bad. We have 3 notification systems to alert members ( pager, cell phone, area siren) and will be installing a new "I AM responding" system shortly. We have more flood suits and PFDs and ropes. We do not have swiftwater suits however would call the WCTRT for that need. We do have extensive rope rescue, confined space and related equipment, and yes training and more training.

I would agree he was on his way to the Districts convention in Ellenville and that is a perfectly good use of the vehicle in this case as it is directly on the way up. In the private sector the boss in nearly every corporation is given not only take home privileges, but have drivers. And to say I pay taxes and a corporation is private is not true, I own many corporations through shares of the company and very concerned about how the corporation spends it (my) dollars. My previous employer CEO earned 11 million a year, had a driver and got a 19 million dollar pension...so whats fair??? Some FD's (not mine) allow the use of the car as a reward for doing the job for NO PAY. I can see that as a nearby FD pays several career chiefs over $200k salary, very good benefits, best of pensions, expenses, etc. and they all have a take home vehicle. His counterpart in the very next FD gets no pay, very little or no expenses. So if you look at it can you justify allowing the chief who puts in a LOT of time (both career and volunteer) some perks just like corporations do?? While I fully understand taxes and everything else (perceptions, jealousy, bad hair day, etc), most people outside of the FD pay little or no attention to the chiefs vehicle as they assume he is the CEO of a small/medium//large "corporation" and that is a perk of the job. (My GOD he is the chief!)

I would agree he was on his way to the Districts convention in Ellenville and that is a perfectly good use of the vehicle in this case as it is directly on the way up. In the private sector the boss in nearly every corporation is given not only take home privileges, but have drivers. And to say I pay taxes and a corporation is private is not true, I own many corporations through shares of the company and very concerned about how the corporation spends it (my) dollars. My previous employer CEO earned 11 million a year, had a driver and got a 19 million dollar pension...so whats fair??? Some FD's (not mine) allow the use of the car as a reward for doing the job for NO PAY. I can see that as a nearby FD pays several career chiefs over $200k salary, very good benefits, best of pensions, expenses, etc. and they all have a take home vehicle. His counterpart in the very next FD gets no pay, very little or no expenses. So if you look at it can you justify allowing the chief who puts in a LOT of time (both career and volunteer) some perks just like corporations do?? While I fully understand taxes and everything else (perceptions, jealousy, bad hair day, etc), most people outside of the FD pay little or no attention to the chiefs vehicle as they assume he is the CEO of a small/medium//large "corporation" and that is a perk of the job. (My GOD he is the chief!)

My volunteer FD is installing a larger emergency generator (in progress now), new heating system and electrical wiring to better withstand the weather related on/off power problems which caused several problems like burning out our emergency genset. We have the AC detector "hotsticks" on all rigs to detect down wires or unsafe electrical AC situations. We placed a 6x6 polaris with rescue stokes/brush Kimtek unit in service to assist getting around as well as we have a 4x4 utility pickup to get around down tree or off road areas. ( we had to go through woods to a backyard to access a EMS situation as the front street was blocked with down wires), I am qualified 35KVA & 4KVA glove hand line constructor supervisor so we do have live line (hotstick) tools and HV & low Voltage gloves and a Certified Utility Safety Administrator (CUSA) environment, health and safety utility administrator so I have extensive experience on transformer/utility fires and spills (benefit in a volunteer organization that many people bring outside skills to the table, and I invite career depts to request my/our help anytime if they don't have those skills). I agree the hot stick program about 10-15 years ago was not a good plan as the training was minimal at best. I do agree the AC detectors (one brand name also uses "hotsticks" which was a poor choice and they agreed it was a poor choice or names) is good but only with ongoing intensive training on utility systems, wires and equipment. We also have purchased more chain saws ( at least one per rig), pumps and generators. I have been pushing for more member assistance equipment so the firefighters family is in power and therefore not as much a worry to the member firefighter to respond or be on duty. We do storm standbys for the duration of most storms and have beds, food, etc. Our town and police/EMS and FD's have a command post in our OEM center manned during storms and we are getting better each time. We also have community center open for displaced residents. Our town instituted a phone call notification system for all residents to be updated. We are working with town on emergency mobile buffalo style fuel and water tanks. We store more barricade tape and upgraded in-house fuel tanks. We have zodiacs in each FD and split our district up on auto MA caused by river/creeks cutting off temporary access. We have more barricades and cones and traffic signs then ever. We also acquired a mobile flood light and generator. we built a new storage facility to help store the items. We have trench/building shores and lumber stored for collapse possibility. More haz mat materials for spill control in storage. Every FF has a portable which is the same as our trunk portables but also has our high band fireground frequencies with software to go trunk (DES limits the number of trunk portables) if needed in case one trunk goes bad. We have 3 notification systems to alert members ( pager, cell phone, area siren) and will be installing a new "I AM responding" system shortly. We have more flood suits and PFDs and ropes. We do not have swiftwater suits however would call the WCTRT for that need. We do have extensive rope rescue, confined space and related equipment, and yes training and more training.

I would agree he was on his way to the Districts convention in Ellenville and that is a perfectly good use of the vehicle in this case as it is directly on the way up. In the private sector the boss in nearly every corporation is given not only take home privileges, but have drivers. And to say I pay taxes and a corporation is private is not true, I own many corporations through shares of the company and very concerned about how the corporation spends it (my) dollars. My previous employer CEO earned 11 million a year, had a driver and got a 19 million dollar pension...so whats fair??? Some FD's (not mine) allow the use of the car as a reward for doing the job for NO PAY. I can see that as a nearby FD pays several career chiefs over $200k salary, very good benefits, best of pensions, expenses, etc. and they all have a take home vehicle. His counterpart in the very next FD gets no pay, very little or no expenses. So if you look at it can you justify allowing the chief who puts in a LOT of time (both career and volunteer) some perks just like corporations do?? While I fully understand taxes and everything else (perceptions, jealousy, bad hair day, etc), most people outside of the FD pay little or no attention to the chiefs vehicle as they assume he is the CEO of a small/medium//large "corporation" and that is a perk of the job. (My GOD he is the chief!)

My volunteer FD is installing a larger emergency generator (in progress now), new heating system and electrical wiring to better withstand the weather related on/off power problems which caused several problems like burning out our emergency genset. We have the AC detector "hotsticks" on all rigs to detect down wires or unsafe electrical AC situations. We placed a 6x6 polaris with rescue stokes/brush Kimtek unit in service to assist getting around as well as we have a 4x4 utility pickup to get around down tree or off road areas. ( we had to go through woods to a backyard to access a EMS situation as the front street was blocked with down wires), I am qualified 35KVA & 4KVA glove hand line constructor supervisor so we do have live line (hotstick) tools and HV & low Voltage gloves and a Certified Utility Safety Administrator (CUSA) environment, health and safety utility administrator so I have extensive experience on transformer/utility fires and spills (benefit in a volunteer organization that many people bring outside skills to the table, and I invite career depts to request my/our help anytime if they don't have those skills). I agree the hot stick program about 10-15 years ago was not a good plan as the training was minimal at best. I do agree the AC detectors (one brand name also uses "hotsticks" which was a poor choice and they agreed it was a poor choice or names) is good but only with ongoing intensive training on utility systems, wires and equipment. We also have purchased more chain saws ( at least one per rig), pumps and generators. I have been pushing for more member assistance equipment so the firefighters family is in power and therefore not as much a worry to the member firefighter to respond or be on duty. We do storm standbys for the duration of most storms and have beds, food, etc. Our town and police/EMS and FD's have a command post in our OEM center manned during storms and we are getting better each time. We also have community center open for displaced residents. Our town instituted a phone call notification system for all residents to be updated. We are working with town on emergency mobile buffalo style fuel and water tanks. We store more barricade tape and upgraded in-house fuel tanks. We have zodiacs in each FD and split our district up on auto MA caused by river/creeks cutting off temporary access. We have more barricades and cones and traffic signs then ever. We also acquired a mobile flood light and generator. we built a new storage facility to help store the items. We have trench/building shores and lumber stored for collapse possibility. More haz mat materials for spill control in storage. Every FF has a portable which is the same as our trunk portables but also has our high band fireground frequencies with software to go trunk (DES limits the number of trunk portables) if needed in case one trunk goes bad. We have 3 notification systems to alert members ( pager, cell phone, area siren) and will be installing a new "I AM responding" system shortly. We have more flood suits and PFDs and ropes. We do not have swiftwater suits however would call the WCTRT for that need. We do have extensive rope rescue, confined space and related equipment, and yes training and more training.

I need to know.. Does anyone actually think the public care about this when they see it? We all see it because we are on the job and notice it. I bet if you asked anyone in a parking lot when we come across these vehicles, they would A. have no clue where the Town is in the state and B. Not really care. Now i am not talking about just this one instance. I am talking about any time it happens. The public do not care until it is a big deal (ie. a accident or something). John Q public is going to be more worried about his shopping, getting to work, (why aren't my darn kids here where i said i would pick them up) then even care about this. Plus nothing will ever happen to change it. You can make rules that you cant go out of town with it but so what. What if he needs to go see a few chiefs or need to make a pick up somewhere of some gear, is he going to check in with mommy to ask if he can leave the block? Exactly. He is the chief, he is the boss. you might not like it but he has the authority to go where he wants. If on the other hand he takes a apparatus then ya we need to know every mile you are gonna take.
Now let the man shop and stop stirring up a ruckus.

It was a tough old 3 story building and one FAST was "activated" when a pass alarm malfunctioned on the third floor area (would not shut off until batteries were removed) thankfully the FF was okay..the truck work was unbelievable due to the masonry construction inside and outside of the building...fire was in the walls and ceilings on all three floors and up to 5 layers of plaster, old tough wire lath, masonite sheets and plywood over plaster on walls "renovated" over time..ate saw blades/chains...many doors were difficult to open with irons with heavy inside smoke banked down to lower levels but no visible fire until roof was vented ..making a lot of truckie work...and some reported smelling smoke for hours prior to dispatch...tough job...but good job by all on scene... so multiple FAST teams are "angels on our shoulders" with so much going on..good call if you ask me...

It was a tough old 3 story building and one FAST was "activated" when a pass alarm malfunctioned on the third floor area (would not shut off until batteries were removed) thankfully the FF was okay..the truck work was unbelievable due to the masonry construction inside and outside of the building...fire was in the walls and ceilings on all three floors and up to 5 layers of plaster, old tough wire lath, masonite sheets and plywood over plaster on walls "renovated" over time..ate saw blades/chains...many doors were difficult to open with irons with heavy inside smoke banked down to lower levels but no visible fire until roof was vented ..making a lot of truckie work...and some reported smelling smoke for hours prior to dispatch...tough job...but good job by all on scene... so multiple FAST teams are "angels on our shoulders" with so much going on..good call if you ask me...

It was a tough old 3 story building and one FAST was "activated" when a pass alarm malfunctioned on the third floor area (would not shut off until batteries were removed) thankfully the FF was okay..the truck work was unbelievable due to the masonry construction inside and outside of the building...fire was in the walls and ceilings on all three floors and up to 5 layers of plaster, old tough wire lath, masonite sheets and plywood over plaster on walls "renovated" over time..ate saw blades/chains...many doors were difficult to open with irons with heavy inside smoke banked down to lower levels but no visible fire until roof was vented ..making a lot of truckie work...and some reported smelling smoke for hours prior to dispatch...tough job...but good job by all on scene... so multiple FAST teams are "angels on our shoulders" with so much going on..good call if you ask me...

It was a tough old 3 story building and one FAST was "activated" when a pass alarm malfunctioned on the third floor area (would not shut off until batteries were removed) thankfully the FF was okay..the truck work was unbelievable due to the masonry construction inside and outside of the building...fire was in the walls and ceilings on all three floors and up to 5 layers of plaster, old tough wire lath, masonite sheets and plywood over plaster on walls "renovated" over time..ate saw blades/chains...many doors were difficult to open with irons with heavy inside smoke banked down to lower levels but no visible fire until roof was vented ..making a lot of truckie work...and some reported smelling smoke for hours prior to dispatch...tough job...but good job by all on scene... so multiple FAST teams are "angels on our shoulders" with so much going on..good call if you ask me...

It was a tough old 3 story building and one FAST was "activated" when a pass alarm malfunctioned on the third floor area (would not shut off until batteries were removed) thankfully the FF was okay..the truck work was unbelievable due to the masonry construction inside and outside of the building...fire was in the walls and ceilings on all three floors and up to 5 layers of plaster, old tough wire lath, masonite sheets and plywood over plaster on walls "renovated" over time..ate saw blades/chains...many doors were difficult to open with irons with heavy inside smoke banked down to lower levels but no visible fire until roof was vented ..making a lot of truckie work...and some reported smelling smoke for hours prior to dispatch...tough job...but good job by all on scene... so multiple FAST teams are "angels on our shoulders" with so much going on..good call if you ask me...

It was a tough old 3 story building and one FAST was "activated" when a pass alarm malfunctioned on the third floor area (would not shut off until batteries were removed) thankfully the FF was okay..the truck work was unbelievable due to the masonry construction inside and outside of the building...fire was in the walls and ceilings on all three floors and up to 5 layers of plaster, old tough wire lath, masonite sheets and plywood over plaster on walls "renovated" over time..ate saw blades/chains...many doors were difficult to open with irons with heavy inside smoke banked down to lower levels but no visible fire until roof was vented ..making a lot of truckie work...and some reported smelling smoke for hours prior to dispatch...tough job...but good job by all on scene... so multiple FAST teams are "angels on our shoulders" with so much going on..good call if you ask me...

It was a tough old 3 story building and one FAST was "activated" when a pass alarm malfunctioned on the third floor area (would not shut off until batteries were removed) thankfully the FF was okay..the truck work was unbelievable due to the masonry construction inside and outside of the building...fire was in the walls and ceilings on all three floors and up to 5 layers of plaster, old tough wire lath, masonite sheets and plywood over plaster on walls "renovated" over time..ate saw blades/chains...many doors were difficult to open with irons with heavy inside smoke banked down to lower levels but no visible fire until roof was vented ..making a lot of truckie work...and some reported smelling smoke for hours prior to dispatch...tough job...but good job by all on scene... so multiple FAST teams are "angels on our shoulders" with so much going on..good call if you ask me...

It was a tough old 3 story building and one FAST was "activated" when a pass alarm malfunctioned on the third floor area (would not shut off until batteries were removed) thankfully the FF was okay..the truck work was unbelievable due to the masonry construction inside and outside of the building...fire was in the walls and ceilings on all three floors and up to 5 layers of plaster, old tough wire lath, masonite sheets and plywood over plaster on walls "renovated" over time..ate saw blades/chains...many doors were difficult to open with irons with heavy inside smoke banked down to lower levels but no visible fire until roof was vented ..making a lot of truckie work...and some reported smelling smoke for hours prior to dispatch...tough job...but good job by all on scene... so multiple FAST teams are "angels on our shoulders" with so much going on..good call if you ask me...

It was a tough old 3 story building and one FAST was "activated" when a pass alarm malfunctioned on the third floor area (would not shut off until batteries were removed) thankfully the FF was okay..the truck work was unbelievable due to the masonry construction inside and outside of the building...fire was in the walls and ceilings on all three floors and up to 5 layers of plaster, old tough wire lath, masonite sheets and plywood over plaster on walls "renovated" over time..ate saw blades/chains...many doors were difficult to open with irons with heavy inside smoke banked down to lower levels but no visible fire until roof was vented ..making a lot of truckie work...and some reported smelling smoke for hours prior to dispatch...tough job...but good job by all on scene... so multiple FAST teams are "angels on our shoulders" with so much going on..good call if you ask me...

It was a tough old 3 story building and one FAST was "activated" when a pass alarm malfunctioned on the third floor area (would not shut off until batteries were removed) thankfully the FF was okay..the truck work was unbelievable due to the masonry construction inside and outside of the building...fire was in the walls and ceilings on all three floors and up to 5 layers of plaster, old tough wire lath, masonite sheets and plywood over plaster on walls "renovated" over time..ate saw blades/chains...many doors were difficult to open with irons with heavy inside smoke banked down to lower levels but no visible fire until roof was vented ..making a lot of truckie work...and some reported smelling smoke for hours prior to dispatch...tough job...but good job by all on scene... so multiple FAST teams are "angels on our shoulders" with so much going on..good call if you ask me...

It was a tough old 3 story building and one FAST was "activated" when a pass alarm malfunctioned on the third floor area (would not shut off until batteries were removed) thankfully the FF was okay..the truck work was unbelievable due to the masonry construction inside and outside of the building...fire was in the walls and ceilings on all three floors and up to 5 layers of plaster, old tough wire lath, masonite sheets and plywood over plaster on walls "renovated" over time..ate saw blades/chains...many doors were difficult to open with irons with heavy inside smoke banked down to lower levels but no visible fire until roof was vented ..making a lot of truckie work...and some reported smelling smoke for hours prior to dispatch...tough job...but good job by all on scene... so multiple FAST teams are "angels on our shoulders" with so much going on..good call if you ask me...

Why not? with the size of the structure/fire load/situation at hand maybe the IC felt the need to have multiple fasts readily available. If you ask me you can never have to many FASTs, most situations where a FAST is utilized, it takes multiple teams to remove the member out.

Whether or not a paid department would've made a difference here is irrelevant for a few reasons:
1st off since there wasn't a paid department in place in Seaside Heights at the time of this fire, it's impossible to tell if their presence would've made a difference under the conditions present upon arrival. We can speculate all we want about response times, staffing or tactics, blah blah blah, it doesn't matter. Things were as they were and any number of circumstances could have placed a paid department in a position to be unavailable at that moment.
2nd paid departments do not have the monopoly on tactics, equipment or competency and that's a fact. Now if someone here was actually in Seaside Heights at the time and was there on the initial alarm and they know the Chief or officers and they know their backgrounds and competency...well then yeah to an extent, they can comment factually, otherwise it's nothing more than the speculations of Monday morning quarterbacks. I mean let's get real here, many a building(s) has burnt to the ground in career towns too and upon hindsight we learn that better resource management or deployments or tactics could have or should have been used. That's called learning and that's something we should all be doing regularly. The truth is every department makes mistakes or faces situations that test their limits and when faced with those circumstances does what they believe to be the "right" thing at the time. Should we sit here behind our keyboards and fault them for it, or worse revel in the misfortune of others to justify our point of view? No we shouldn't unless we were there to judge based on facts. What we should do is look at the situation for what it was and what it is and do our best to learn from it, lest we find ourselves in the same situation and get the same results.
Lastly, if taxpayers don't want to fund a paid department well then guess what, there isn't go to be one...end of story
Stay Safe

Being a former volunteer firefighter and a career firefighter for the last 23 years (an officer for the last 15), here is my take on it:
Being career does not make you any better than being volunteer. I know some volunteer departments in my old hometown (Dutchess County NY) where everyone is well certified and competent, and they show up very rapidly when the tones go off. Heck, some of those guys are better trained than the people I currently work with.
It all has to do with the following and applies to both volunteer and career departments:
Leadership -- if the department's leadership does not make sure that there is a means to get their membership trained and encourages it, the department will never be functional.
Membership -- if you can't get enough people to adequately staff the vehicles when called, then the department will not be functional.
Political Support -- if you can't get the support of your commissioners or supervising governmental entity, the department will not be functional.
Fire Prevention -- if the department or municipality doesn't take fire prevention seriously and does not have a good inspection program in place where property owners are held accountable, there will be fire safety issues.
I've seen terrible volunteer departments and I've seen terrible career departments. I've also seen great career departments and volunteer departments that would put most career departments to shame. I really don't think it has anything to do with volunteer vs. career as a whole, but the specific area in NJ.
I've seen many departments here in Florida go from volunteer to career and shut down/disband firehouses completely so they could pay the staff of 2 firefighters on an engine for each of the other stations covering a larger area. Yes, you have 100% assurance a unit will respond immediately, but you have less units and longer response times in those areas where the fire stations were shut down.
This is just my 2 cents.

From what I have heard about this electrical fire, unless someone called it in when the problem first started happening it would not made much of a difference. People forget you had 30 MPH winds driving that fire so once flame broke out the theory of fire doubling every minute went out the window.
I have heard of plenty of large fires were paid departments were completely in charge and they still lost a lot. I have heard paid departments cancel mutual aid just to end up calling them back 10 minutes later as they are loosing the building.
No volunteers are not perfect but no one is. In this current world especially in our situation where we have a large mix of paid and volunteer departments we need to stop fighting one another and work with each other to get the job done.
Believe it or not volunteers will support paid firefighters MORE when they are not A**holes back at them.