TFD141@aol.com

Even if the FD did something wrong, which is not clear either way here, there has to be a special duty to an individual or corporation in order to gain any settlement. In essence, FD are immune from such claims unless a special duty was agreed too in advance. This will be dismissed unless the FD promised to not allow water to flow towards the plant, which I doubt anyone would or could promise.

This station would improve their ISO rating in that portion of the fire district, possibly paying for the station through lower insurance costs to each homeowner. Manning could be built up once a station and apparatus are made available nearby. We all belong or have belonged to FD's and should show support when our neighboring brothers & sisters need something passed like facilities and apparatus. Armonk has future bunk rooms built in. There are others that have plans or want to build bunk rooms, but it is hard to spend for future possibilities in this tough economic climate and get it approved by voters. I would suggest you look at the the large increase in a budget before stating to hire career staff. A station costs you once for 10 or 20 years, staffing costs never go down or away. Career versus Volunteer staffing is determined by the number and frequency of calls, obviously YHFD is doing fine with staffing as is.

Isn't 1,000,000 parts 100%? So 12,500 PPM would be 1.25% not 12.8% ? I believe CO is lower flammable limit is 128,000PPM or 12.8%.and upper limit is 74% or 744,000PPM. I attached a propane safety document link below which is good reading and provides a lot of information. CO without symptoms should still be treated with high regard as the occupant could be under the influence of CO poisioning and not giving correct answers to dispatchers, so the first unit should "rush" to ensure the correct situation is ascertained. As little as 1200PPM is IDLH, thats only 1.2% (not 12%). A typical cooking range that is normally unvented can give off 1000PPM cooking a large dinner such as Thanksgiving or other times. Possible CO poisoning and not getting the correct story... Thats the rush. Seems we are beating ourselves up all the time trying to not be EMERGENCY SERVICES...asking what's the rush. Its a highly dangerous gas and thats why the manufacturers put that "CALL YOUR FIRE DEPARTMENT" notice on all detectors. They expect you to rush to make sure it isn't dangerous, and to save soemone if it is. Again, thats the rush. http://www.propanesafety.com/uploadedFiles/Safety/Workforce_Training_programs/Propane_Emergencies_(PE)_Program/Energencies_PDFs/Scenario%202.pdf

Sorry but I totally disagree with your viewpoint. The law does protect us. I can't go into the story online, however, I personally have seen the law protect after a serious collision between a car and apparatus. Had the call been made to proceed with caution, emergency services would have been "partially" at fault. The judge ruled partial fault until the emergency services lawyer advised the judge of the V&T law and it was ruled no fault of the apparatus. Again, I say always proceed with caution. In your #3 were you not proceeding with caution prior to the call of 10-20???

I have seen several no symptoms calls turn out to have very high levels of CO. One recently was >8000 PPM, and another was 120,000PPM. The resident was away, loaned his home to two foreign visitors who called as they entered the home and the alarm was sounding. Furnace was pushing out CO through the flue pipe air intake at the heater, mainly due to high humidity levels outside. The second one that was 120,000ppm was the spouses pickup truck is left running in the garage to warm up, he leaves through the inside garage door and pulls out closing the garage for security reasons. Wife and children were left behind sleeping and the alarm awoke them. Both parties indicated it was not an emergency to them and were embarassed. More importantly Brothers & Sisters: We also go with having the first unit do a size up then report the conditions and if the report indicates no emergency, the officer and driver know in advance to keep lights and siren to comply with V&T law while not "rushing" and driving with "more caution", etc. I recommend to protect us drivers and officers to never say "go non-emergency" or "with Traffic" as you are no longer protected by V&T law if you cross a yellow or white road line, roll through a stop or yield sign or traffic signal, turn to sharp and cross into the other oncoming lane, go 5-10 miles-per-hour over the posted speed limit, pulling out of the driveway from HQ, etc.. Your driver and officer may be in jail for a very long time because we are being so thoughtful about "safety" that we called for a non emergency response and your driver/officer went over the line to get around a double parked car or delivery van, struck the oncoming car and injured or worse killed the driver even though you were driving with caution. You should always drive with caution whether its an emergency or not, even if they say "expedite", "people trapped", "working fire", "10-75" or whatever. If you call over the radio to proceed with caution, the other drivers lawyer will play that back and will ask the jury, " so the f\ire truck wasn't proceeding with caution prior to that call and caused harm to my client???"...the next sound you hear will be the jail cell door closing behind you. Or he will ask the jury, do you think the "emergency driver" was proceeding in non emergency after his adrenaline was pumping coming to an emergency request call and than halfway into the response, your told to go non emergency?? The jury will think...he must have been "adrenaline high" and caused the accident...we the judge or jury find you 50% fault..that's $10 million pain and suffering...and 2 years in jail for failure to slow down adequately 10 seconds after the radio transmission transcript indicates you ignoring the non emergency or proceed with caution order. Why do we want to remove the protection of the law that was written to protect us while "doing our job".

My volunteer FD is installing a larger emergency generator (in progress now), new heating system and electrical wiring to better withstand the weather related on/off power problems which caused several problems like burning out our emergency genset. We have the AC detector "hotsticks" on all rigs to detect down wires or unsafe electrical AC situations. We placed a 6x6 polaris with rescue stokes/brush Kimtek unit in service to assist getting around as well as we have a 4x4 utility pickup to get around down tree or off road areas. ( we had to go through woods to a backyard to access a EMS situation as the front street was blocked with down wires), I am qualified 35KVA & 4KVA glove hand line constructor supervisor so we do have live line (hotstick) tools and HV & low Voltage gloves and a Certified Utility Safety Administrator (CUSA) environment, health and safety utility administrator so I have extensive experience on transformer/utility fires and spills (benefit in a volunteer organization that many people bring outside skills to the table, and I invite career depts to request my/our help anytime if they don't have those skills). I agree the hot stick program about 10-15 years ago was not a good plan as the training was minimal at best. I do agree the AC detectors (one brand name also uses "hotsticks" which was a poor choice and they agreed it was a poor choice or names) is good but only with ongoing intensive training on utility systems, wires and equipment. We also have purchased more chain saws ( at least one per rig), pumps and generators. I have been pushing for more member assistance equipment so the firefighters family is in power and therefore not as much a worry to the member firefighter to respond or be on duty. We do storm standbys for the duration of most storms and have beds, food, etc. Our town and police/EMS and FD's have a command post in our OEM center manned during storms and we are getting better each time. We also have community center open for displaced residents. Our town instituted a phone call notification system for all residents to be updated. We are working with town on emergency mobile buffalo style fuel and water tanks. We store more barricade tape and upgraded in-house fuel tanks. We have zodiacs in each FD and split our district up on auto MA caused by river/creeks cutting off temporary access. We have more barricades and cones and traffic signs then ever. We also acquired a mobile flood light and generator. we built a new storage facility to help store the items. We have trench/building shores and lumber stored for collapse possibility. More haz mat materials for spill control in storage. Every FF has a portable which is the same as our trunk portables but also has our high band fireground frequencies with software to go trunk (DES limits the number of trunk portables) if needed in case one trunk goes bad. We have 3 notification systems to alert members ( pager, cell phone, area siren) and will be installing a new "I AM responding" system shortly. We have more flood suits and PFDs and ropes. We do not have swiftwater suits however would call the WCTRT for that need. We do have extensive rope rescue, confined space and related equipment, and yes training and more training.

I would agree he was on his way to the Districts convention in Ellenville and that is a perfectly good use of the vehicle in this case as it is directly on the way up. In the private sector the boss in nearly every corporation is given not only take home privileges, but have drivers. And to say I pay taxes and a corporation is private is not true, I own many corporations through shares of the company and very concerned about how the corporation spends it (my) dollars. My previous employer CEO earned 11 million a year, had a driver and got a 19 million dollar pension...so whats fair??? Some FD's (not mine) allow the use of the car as a reward for doing the job for NO PAY. I can see that as a nearby FD pays several career chiefs over $200k salary, very good benefits, best of pensions, expenses, etc. and they all have a take home vehicle. His counterpart in the very next FD gets no pay, very little or no expenses. So if you look at it can you justify allowing the chief who puts in a LOT of time (both career and volunteer) some perks just like corporations do?? While I fully understand taxes and everything else (perceptions, jealousy, bad hair day, etc), most people outside of the FD pay little or no attention to the chiefs vehicle as they assume he is the CEO of a small/medium//large "corporation" and that is a perk of the job. (My GOD he is the chief!)

We have gone to requesting standing by in "your HQ" to cover the operating FD (requested when we are operating only larger fires that has tax our manpower and apparatus) and they can cover both districts and go to the next alarm in either district. Having a crew in quarters saves the extra transport time if you waited to call them out to cover your district. I think taking the 150 alarms and dividing over 365 days isn't fair, as sometimes and usually when at the worst possible time, you get one or two or more calls in one day and then nothing for several days, so for peace of mind you call for MA coverage. so to make sure you have someone you place a MA on standby in their quarters. If you think you may need more crews at the initial larger incident we move the unit into our quarters as a strategic staging and same time covering any possible other calls. What does career FD's do when they go below minimum manning when called to cover other areas? Do they (career) call in on OT to cover their area or let it go? If they do call in on OT, who pays the requesting district or eat the cost?

It was a tough old 3 story building and one FAST was "activated" when a pass alarm malfunctioned on the third floor area (would not shut off until batteries were removed) thankfully the FF was okay..the truck work was unbelievable due to the masonry construction inside and outside of the building...fire was in the walls and ceilings on all three floors and up to 5 layers of plaster, old tough wire lath, masonite sheets and plywood over plaster on walls "renovated" over time..ate saw blades/chains...many doors were difficult to open with irons with heavy inside smoke banked down to lower levels but no visible fire until roof was vented ..making a lot of truckie work...and some reported smelling smoke for hours prior to dispatch...tough job...but good job by all on scene... so multiple FAST teams are "angels on our shoulders" with so much going on..good call if you ask me...

Ed from Arizona, here in NYS the new "SAFE" law prevents us from carrying more than 7 bullets...Thanks to Emperor Cuomo and worse his minion Bloomberg won't allow any guns to be carried in NYC by legal owners..(only criminals are allowed to carry as they don't follow any laws now do they?)... these bikers look like they were shutting down the highway and stopping cars like they do everywhere so they can perform their "stunts"..I guess that's the reason for the name "hollywood stunts"..and so it went terribly wrong when an innocent person became scared of a wild mob...I agree they should all lose their licenses, bikes and it's a shame only one of that group is crippled and i have no sympathy for him or his gangsters after scaring a family out for a nice day in the city..that could have been anyone of us in our cars with family...I would leave them on that El or abutment they hit as others suggested as a sign to crotch rocket riders to heed...takes the cuffs off of our police...and put them on those scum-bikers...and I know many real bikers are outraged... but all bikers need to drive like a car..one bike in each lane and not passing in between cars when traffic is slowed..I see way to many using the size of their bikes to get around everyone else rather than follow the rules.. this leads to many to just keep upping the ante until you have these wild "flash gangs" taking advantage like this... there are rules..follow them..

I disagree on the consolidation, especially as it pertains to volunteer FD's. Each volunteer FD manning has it's ups and downs in cycles. Automatic Mutual aid helps to smooth out the bumps when one Fd is having a "bump in the road time" but is not intended to be permanent. Temporary fixes may last years as it takes that long to train and re-build the forces. However, I know two things I can speak of as a volunteer. The first paid person walks through the door, is my last day volunteering at that FD and many of my comrades have said the same thing. So we won't hire period. The second is my FD runs on a little more than $600k. That wouldn't pay for 4 paid positions with all of the extras that come with paying someone and a union. And my districts tax ratables could not cover a large increase without forcng people to reconsider living in my town. By consolidating you lose your identiy, and identity creates pride. Pride is your paycheck in the volunteer service. I don't see a problem with having 5 pieces of apparatus in my little volunteer FD plus 3chiefs cars being we only spend $600k a year which is about 1% of our overall school/county/town tax bill (my fire district tax is around $100-200 annually or about 1% of my tax bill). So I say the volunteers are a 1% solution to taxes. No way can you go career without rapidly transitioning to mostly or totally career. Not to say it can't work, but, and thats a big but...it is usually very painful relationships. Not worth it to volunteer once paid are brought on, as it changes most everything. Eventually paid will insist to the powers to be, to put a paid chief on board. And it usually is the paid chief/paid members looks down at volunteers as not worthy. So its a long painful road to fully paid FD. And consolidating several FDs can be done easier with automatic MA. Rather than combine and create a faceless mega FD, you work at smaller chunks and levels to fix problems, such as you send one piece of apparatus, say and engine with 2 guys and I will send an engine with 2 guys and we have one engine company manning. And so on and so forth filling out the entire assignment. Many lightly manned career FD sdo it that way. is it the best, no absolutely not. i just wish more people would volunteer or we could raise more $$ to hire. I say either go career paid fully or stay volunteer and work it out. I also notice many paid commenters on here already don't like the county. they (commenters) want a larger FD but want control and not give it to the county. Don't you usuallly say in the larger combined FDs such as in Maryland arn't they usually county?? We all live in an imperfect society in an imperfect world. Volunteers will exist and paid will exist. that will change with the number of calls...once a volunteer FD is called so many times you burn everyone out, they transition to career. Then you move...becuase not many like being in an area of congestion and all the other stuff that comes with it. And so it goes around and around...cities were dying, and now some are starting to be reborn, while others are just beginning the dying off process...give me the small town living and let me keep it 100% volunteer...BTW, I was second on the list back in 1974 in a large FD, and then the layoffs and court actions and affirmative whatever began....and I have family and very close friends that are career...I respect the individual all of them regardless of whether or not they are volunteer or career or both at one time or another. So again I say the volunteer FD will be around long after we are all gone. It will go career when the changes occur in that area, nothing any union leader or other will change that much...so if you live in a volunteer town then join and help out while we are here on earth, make a difference. Do it because it is right and the American way. And...once it becomes career..leave or get that paid position...but let's work together until then...if we did...the fire service would be inherently stronger then now as we are divided. I know the NYS laws well being on the legislative & law committee for 20 years as one of the commissioners. I know ISO and our rating is one point from being moved from a 4 to a 3. With a little more work we could go further. We meet the NFPA/OSHA regulations. Do we hiccup once in awhile, absolutely, but can anyone here say that doesn't happen in their FD? Did we look at career manning, we did and we studied the time and manpower issues. I also check our tax bill and ratables and zoning laws. Sorry, but volunteer FD's work. All fires are put out, no one isn't rescued or attempted to rescued. Maybe at times it isn't pretty, but it works.

i think in the above discussions we are confusing being "listed" as a FAST team in 60 control versus having most if not all members trained in FAST; and also where you obtain that training. I know in my volunteer FD we require FF1 & 2 and encourage going further such as FAST, Rescue Basic plus, etc. We also do CPR/First Aid initially and annually and refresh our HM, rescue, FAST, Bailout, etc. annually. We don't run EMS but have many EMT's and do go on some EMS assists. We have many department members that are fire instructors or highly experienced firefighters that can do instruction at the company level for FAST and most everything else, but can't issue a county or State certificate which is not a problem to us as our fire commissioners are the AHJ, but going to other places, we prefer having those certificates on file to cover a legal situation outside of our normal district/battalion. Initially like many, our FD was listed as a FAST team. For some (unknown to me) reason we fell off that list. We have a great department and generally we get out with 5 FF on an engine and 6 FF on a ladder or rescue (Our rescue is a rescue-pumper as majority of rescues are car related and fires are possible with the rescue). Do we have our moments where we have less or don't get out as fast as we like? yep. I don't know of any FD that doesn't have that problem sometime during a shift. Unfortunately volunteer shifts are 24/7. But well over 90% of the time we are on our mark and get two engines and ladder (and more) out to our structure fires. We send less to other type fires so maybe only one or two units are needed on those type of calls. I prefer going to fires in our district as we run riding positions and so I know pretty close to exactly what to expect each apparatus & team to do and accomplish. Going to MA is more difficult as we usually send only one, possibly two apparatus and under the command of others that work "differently". Again we are very structured, however, we adapt to going to other FDs that are less structured. We also have a standing order to all to stand-by at HQ if one apparatus has left as we may need more. And standing by in another's HQ in case of an alarm...seems we can do the same standing by in our HQ and cover both districts based on the next alarm, so we avoid going to just standby at one house or district (but will go if asked). Volunteer houses and most career houses do not have the manning as in years past. There are a few volunteer and career FD's that don't have a manning problem. That is due to the the community make-up, and taxpayers and leaders being ABLE to afford full coverage. However, most cannot afford this coverage regardless of what you may think ( i.e. Westchester most taxed, richest, having funds, should be able to afford best protection, etc, etc.) without a sizable tax increase which would not fly regardless of "what we want". So slowly FAST teams became hard to field to have a full team standby often times several towns over, and not your usualy MA area. This means a FD that is running thin already, or helping other nearby FD's with temporary manning issues, has to question fielding a "listed" FAST team at 60. I agree you should be asking for more "fire teams" at staging rather than using the on-scene FAST team, just when everything is "heating" up and they are needed most as a FAST. I also think if you are a career firefighter and live in a volunteer community, you should run with your local VFD instead of complaining why don't they clean up their act, do better, etc..as all volunteer live or work in that community...and have other careers....so put aside the differences and join. I know this will fall on deaf ears to many on here that are career which is a shame, or worse (Oh MY!!) you will beat me up verbally on this chat...hmm..If I only had feelings they would be hurt!!!...but hey, being in a coma for the past 5 years as someone suggested recently on another post..has it's advantages.. (actually I choose not to answer on EMT bravo to avoid just such remarks and pissing on each others well polished shoes as I have Irish blood in me too) My opinions and remarks are solely my personal opinions and are not necessarily the opinions or position of my fire department or other teams I am associated with.

To join the WCTRT you must be trained to the minimum of BRT which is a NYS course, be 21 and have taken FF or other (have some non-fire people i.e.; PD, EMS, Engineers, Surgeons, etc.) training, passed the annual NFPA/OSHA medical and have SCBA clearances for interior operations. Training continues with utilizing NYS Technical Rescue courses same as everyone else. WCTRT members progress from awareness to operational to technician as they take courses. They have varying amounts of awareness, operational and technical level responders in each of the seven TRT areas and meet all NFPA standards. The twice monthly are drills to maintain and refresh training based on the NYS courses and are usually under the guidance of a NYS instructor. Two years ago WCTRT were called about 12 times in one year and responded with over 20 technician level responders for each of the calls, with more operational and awareness level members. WCTRT went on structural collapses, trench rescues, swift water/Flood rescues, wilderness SAR, confined space, high angle rope rescues, etc. It was a busy year, but since then responses have averaged 4-6 per year which is what was anticipated. WCTRT also have been dispatched regionally by the state during storm and resultant flood waters and the state recognizes WCTRT have "come a long way in a short time”. Our apparatus & equipment is incredible in how it has grown and we have been trained on all of the various apparatus. Includes the MEC rail cars were we can access rail lines during TRT or haz mat calls. START training gave us technician & specialist T-T-T level training prior to initiation county-wide. The present 20-40 responders on each of the calls is typical and we can call on more if the call is extended. We have gone through 3 sets of 50 to 100 technicians prior to the present (4th round of) staffing which is between 50-100 averaging approximately 75. In the ideal world we would like to keep all of the people however, people and lives change and the pay is not so good. Most of our equipment and apparatus have been paid for through various grants with minimal cost to the residents of Westchester County. We also have a mutual aid team for back up and we are speaking to other regions to work together. To date all WCTRT members have not received one dime for our time or effort or even for our personal gas, nor do we ask for it. Response times are: apparatus out the door manned within minutes of dispatch as it is a central location and we need to drive to it. For one, I am usually there in about 5-10 minutes depending on traffic. Many members and team leaders respond directly to the scene depending on the location of the member to the call location to provide expertise to the local first responders. We have so much equipment it takes a large binder to maintain the records but I would estimate there is $5-10 million invested. We have saved more than one life, and as we all say in emergency services ..."if we save one life it was all worth it". I hope this answers your questions, and please show some respect for a quality team. I don't bad mouth your career squads and you should not bad mouth the "volunteer" team. We are both in it for one purpose....and the WCTRT has performed well in that respect. BTW, nice high angle rescue on that apartment building in Yonkers a while ago but you should have called us for back up (Ha-hah). You were called to the tornado in Mt Pleasant, in an OMG a 100% volunteer area. And just so you know, the county executive past and present, and the Board of Legislators realize we are cost effective and a highly regarded TRT by our peers. I only wish we could work together. I say that you should want a trained FF even if all you can afford is a volunteer (yes we meet all national and state standards regardless of what some of you think, and yes some volunteer leaders don't lead, but I see that in career departments as well) with minimum staffing and if it means a mix of volunteer until you can afford more, you should embrace it for the good of your community. I guess my glasses are a little too rose colored.... I know most if not all of the posters above and most of you know me. I am an original founder of the team started in August 2001, and the county approved the team several years later. So we have been in service for over 12 years, I believe 7 under the county. I usually don't answer requests on this site as it seems anything a "volunteer" does is no good to some, and eventually turns into a bashing and pissing match. That's not my style. I quote LA's Rodney King, "can't we all just get along (work) together?" So I say: The emperor has clothes in this case....and more....much more....it is not unnecessary, is the most cost effective and most viable special operations, that’s why it was chosen to serve all of Westchester County and continues serving with distinction today. I would like to emphasize that in this post as well as in any post I make on EMTBravo, or elsewhere, I am expressing myself as a private citizen, in a non-official capacity. The content of my posts is not being disclosed in my official capacity and such content represents solely my opinions and does not necessarily represent the official position of the County of Westchester or the Thornwood Fire Department. And yes, I realize it would be safer to express myself anonymously, but that is not my style and never will be.

My FD may be interested. Send me an email TFD141@aol.com with list. thanks!

Marty, good luck in your retirement and I'm sure BMFD will miss you along with the rest of us ex-chiefs! Be well, collect many pension checks, and enjoy down south! Rich B.