Larryalb

why piss people off if you don't have to. before reading the whole thread ,Iwas going to write what was said above, but he has said better than I. If they give you trouble go for it, but give them the benefit. Why trash something just to trash it and piss them off. why look for trouble. there is enough out there with out have to create more. Have a good day Larry

This going to be my last post on this subject because it seems more is being read into this than I have stated. 1) I have always agreed that the proper amount of water is required never mentioned 40 gpm We all know what the minium is. 2) The only reason for bringing the example of the xmas tree was, most people can actually see what is happening with the stream and fire. 3) The example of the task force tip nozzle was only that It was shown and explained how the stream becomes solid again. 4) The only experience I have had with Task Force tip is in training other Depts. I personnaly was always exposed to Akron. 5) The protection I spoke about was not letting the fire over power you on entry, thats why I gave the example of the xmas tree. Please dont read into what I have written. 6) We don't need a hydralics class at the fire scene. That was what I was trying to say. Try the nozzles with an open mind either at drill school or behind the fire house, I have done this and thats is part of the reasons for making my comments and opinions. Whether some manufacture gives you the information or not you have to try it yourself, there is, because as was said, there is to much BS and the BS meter is not always in working order. 7) I was also trying to point out and I guess i didn't get it accross that the fog nozzle can do the same job as the smooth bore with limits and you can do more that one type of operation with it. To change a nozzle during the intial attack I don't know about that. It has been a good discusion and I hope I have been able to have some closed minds, not any one that has written their opinion, to investigate and try it for themselves. The last thing John mentioned is a good point, but in all my years on the job and instructing since, I have very rarely had debree, I know its there and all you need is one time, but that is quite awhile. I you are working in the projects yes we did have the debrie, but for the most part its didn't show its ugly face. Its been a good discussion and have a good day, this can go on forever Larry

I think my point was not made. anyone that doesn't use the proper flow should be shot. You need the proper amount of water where you need it. The proper training was and is not being given with the fog nozzle and whether it is high rise or low rise a fire is fire and you should attach it properly. The myth that the solid stream put more water on the fire is BS if the MPO, the officer, and the firefighter is doing their job properly we would not be having 90% of the LODD and accidents we have had. Re the expensive tool If the standpipe system and the back up pressures are correctly administered you wouldn't need the newer nozzles. I believe the lower pressure nozzles are being used to makeup for the lack of training and understanding we have gotten. and maybe the lack of discipline or being corrected when we screw up may also be the problem. As you can see I feel strongly on this matter and have done quite a bit of research and training on the subject I don't plan on trying to teach a course on line etc. and I do appreciate the difference of opinion but just I don't agree with it. Have a nice day

I usually just read, but this subject is very dear to me. I have had many discussuons on this. I think we all need to go back to basics and look at what we are trying to do. I am an avocated of the fog nozzle and I will try to give the facts why. To begin with there is a place for the solid stream nozzle, but not on the attach line. I will try to list the reasons below to go with a fog nozzle. 1) using a solid stream nozzle only, you have told me I'm too stupid to know when to use a fog pattern or straight stream 2) You have taken away my fog pattern protection (good example look at the propane xmas tree evolution) you only die once 3) Most of our fires are room and contents. (How big are these spaces normally)use the fire formular to know how much water you need. 4) How much wet stuff do you need to put the red stuff out. 5) Too many of us take someones word, that what they are stating is correct. use your own head and look at all the facts when making a dissision, not just what some one told you, they may not give or know all the information, ask questions. 6) One way, I explain when to use, fog or straight stream is ( if it is not vented or you don't know, use the straight stream on the ceiling etc. If it is vented use the fog stream) 7) high rise fires need lower pressures, because the higher pressure may not be available. Fog nozzles are being designed to take the lower presure into account (remember the wet stuff puts out the red stuff) 8) I'm not sure how long ago, either at Montour Falls or Emmittsburg, task force tips put on a class on the use of fog nozzles. One thing that was pointed out was about 14 to 18 inches away from the nozzle, in a straight stream application, the stream is no longer hollow, but solid with air bubbles. This does the same job as the solid stream. 9) again how big is the space you are entering, you can reach the other side normally. will you reach the other side or not, do the math. 10 ) when you open the fire apartment, whether high rise or low rise what is the wind a factor. ( is the blown out window a picture window (40 square feet) and the door being opened a foot is only (7 square feet). this causes a blow torch effect. PROTECTION PROTECTION PROTECTION what will you do. 11) you hear penitration and evaporation, thats where your training comes into play. Remember we are all profressionals and trained. If you don't know find out you only live once. don't beleive everything your told, try it out or look it up. the facts I could go on, but I read this yesterday and couldn't sleep without putting in my 2 cents. Behind the fire house or drill school, open a fog nozzle in the straight stream and look at the pattern, what happens to the stream and how far will it reach. how much water will it deliver. this is something you can do and prove to yourself, don't beleive every thing your told. don't be lazy, its your life not someone elses. One case, I know a firefighter died because of protection (ie water) there were other things done wrong also, this is not the place for it, read the secret list. you will get alot of info re fire streams from that also. Have a good day

Sta 5 was closed in 1970 when we started the change in hours from 48 hrs per week to 40. Gov Rockafeller signed in law 40 hour work week. We went down 2 hours per year down to 42 with 105 hours as comp time. We were running a conventional open cab seagrave with a crome nose I think it was a 59 but I forget. Station 2 on Hamilton ave was closed and replaced by the bus garage in 1978. I was driving the truck on the last ride we had there. That was from urban renewal.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face200509.html This is the report of Texas Capt LODD 1/05. It looks like they did alot of right things and still had bad results. There are alot of good SOG's and recommendations in this report. It looks like this was a class act, most all the rules were followed. It just goes to show you need everything going in your favor and doing things right to come out of this game ok. In an earlier post I mentioned about the training with the exposure we are getting now with ie this site etc., that we didn't years ago. We didn't do half what they do today. obviously the stats prove this out. ie. the TIC on every incident makes so much scents. I think this is a must read for both the proby and the senior man. do it right the first time you might be have a second time. Have a good day

Thankyou this is more than I expected Have a nice day

It sounds simple but I have had no luck locating a site to locate the fire frequencies for Polk County Fla. If someone can point me in the right direction it would be appreciated Have a nice day

My comments were not intended for you Tom, I don't think any of the probies you were envolved with have hit the fire house yet. My comments were more directed to the life and times we live in. disapline is not a top priorty these days, maybe it will come back. But as you know or should know when you are envolved in an emergency operation the chain of command needs to be followed. That should mean we should have the best of the best leading. I don't think this is the case. There are too many leaders that are not leaders and are setting waiting for someone to make the decisions. Too may of our young have not known the process of receiving orders, and they get promoted and don't know how to give orders. This is not just related to the fire service. Ther were the different names for the kids growing up. The baby booomers, the flower children, it goes on and on. These different groups floated different boats. Just because things change doesn't always mean they have change for the best. I have some personal objections to some. I know when we used to repel we never used belays, obviusly now you look at it and say to yourself what a$$ we were. There have been many many changes for the good that have saved lives and injuries. There is no question that we will need to have many more changes to make a bigger difference. I don't want to get in to the changes other than the disapline and the way we have to pick our leaders. The progress is good. The bldg. dept. or codes are going to put us out of business. I don't think anyone can condem them. Fire prevention has made a big difference in to the way and how many fire we catch. We used to have 1 man on fire prevention and that was punishment, then it went to 10 and started getting serious. Companies going out on inspections continuously. It diffinately has made a difference. My comment re keeping the mouth shut was and is intended to the less experienced firefighter from shooting their mouth of because they think they know everything. Part of the job is getting along with one another, We have to work as a team, That part of the difference between cops and firefighter they work by themselvs we have to bwork with one another. It was said earlier that there can't be shirkers and they need to realize that senoity has to be earned. That is also part of the learning process. We all know if someone was a dumb kid when they grow up they usually are a dumb adult. they don't just get smart. I was an exception to that. The young need to know when it is appropriate to take over the conversation, and know not to put across they are the experts. There are ways and there are ways to do this. That is part of growing up and experience. Part of age and senoirty is the realization that you don't know everything, the more you know the more you find you don't know. To go futher I don't thing the previous instructors did a bad job either. I also know what I had as a probie you would laugh, so I won't go into that, but what I did and are still doing, is to know that I don't know everything, and still need to hit the books or what ever else is available Montour Etc. I had to almost sneak to get to Montour . Now they send half the job all over the country. It all has to start somewhere, I have been lucky enough to see this with my own eyes. Just since 911, look at all the changes, someone is now paying attention. This all goes back to the orignal question re: the probies and senior men, tradition etc. There needs to be change, but we also need to maintain tradition. We need to be proud of what we do, and bring that to the probies, that is is ok to say "you like the job". I still hate fire prevention, but that doesn't mean that I don't think it is necessary or should be done by all firefighters, probie and senior, thats the way you know your first due etc. and keep the fire duty down. I mentioned in my previous post about the 129 hours for the inservice training. I don't know how the smaller jobs are able to do it, I know how hard it was for our job to accomplish it. I know, I had to set the schedule and keep the records. The smaller jobs don't the luxuary of the manpower. They must be doing, it but I don't know how. I have seen some real positive changes with the different articles, internet, etc. to get the changes out. Well it looks like I got carried away again. Enough is enough. we need spell check this is hard. Have a good day

A little more infomation that was not covered or incorrectly covered. I was teaching proby school in the early 80's, part of what I taught was Metro north safety etc. with their help. I also taught disappline which is lacking, not only in the fire service but in life itself. When I was in the Navy if you didn't do what you were told you went to the brig. You didn't have the choice to quit or question the order you learned to do it when you were told and maybe question it later. I don't want to sound like a braggard, but you don't have the fires anymore, so most of what is being taught is from the book, because the expeirence is not there from some of the senior men either. This was already covered, but the probies are being taught more information now because the commincation level is much better. There are too many people talk the talk, but have not walked the walk. To touch on the senior men on the job now they need to be kept informed of the new technique's and that is part of what the 129 hours of in-service training is supposed to do. that is to keep them up todate with what the probies should be learning in the academy. The senoirity system should maintained and if you haven't been there done that keep your mouth shut. I think the problem is not just the fire service but the politcly correct croud. The smaller jobs may have a prolem keeping up with the 129 hours, but that is their jobs responsiblity. The bigger jobs do the in-service training and that should keep them up to date. Most of what a firefighter job now, is not fighting fires, but all the other things, house work, inspections etc. if fire duty is 3% thats alot. The senority process needs to be kept up, but as someone said earlier that does not give the senoir man a right to slack off either. The biggest problem I have seen is the officers are afraid to be an officer, that they want to be everybody's friend. I have said enough and more than I planned on. Have a nice day

Years ago the identifier was changed to 60 control, from county control, I beleived the state wide communicationswas the reason. Westchester county is (county number 60). If you are on the air calling for a truck you just may get a truck and you were looking for an engine etc. I listen, too many times, on the air and hear units calling, as mentioned earlier, (unit) to 60. is it eng 60, truck 60, rescue 60, etc. Someone earlier mentioned up north, if the other unit on line has the same number who is the call for and who is answering the measage. Don't try to be cool use the proper identifier. It takes any guess work out and helps eliminate mistakes.