JJB531

With due respect to the staff,
Before the topic was locked, there was some measure of displeasure with the post from the site's founder regarding one-liners and inflammatory comments, with a poster saying the site has lost it's balls and the members need thicker skin.
It's not a matter of the site "losing it's balls" or members who need "thicker skin", it's about keeping the site educational, a positive environment, and most of all, PROFESSIONAL. Sometimes we need to remember that "we" (emergency service members) are not the only ones who read the content contained in these forums. I'm sure there are enthusiasts, members of local government, members of the media, and so on who read the content contained in these forums. While it's all good to banter amongst each other as if we were in the firehouse, precinct, quarters, or whatever you would like to call it, we still have to maintain some level of decorum and professionalism just as if we were present in a public place, since this board is easily viewed by members of the general public, and more importantly the media. Case in point;
The NYPD Rant for those who's haven't read it is full of so much garbage since there is little to no moderation, it's not one bit enjoyable to read from an educational standpoint. If anyone outside the NYPD read the material in that forum, the useless bantering of a few sets a bad precedence and honestly depicts the members of the NYPD in a very negative light. The media reported today on a thread contained in the NYPD Rant website about posters who posted personal attacks against an NYPD member. As a civilian reading that article, what kind of opinion do you think the "average Joe" will have of the Rant and the members of the NYPD?
So in order to keep this site from becoming another "rant style" website, there needs to be a level of moderation that suits the wishes of the site's founder, since it is ultimately his call on what is and what is not permitted. If any of us don't like it, we are all free to start up our own site where anything goes and all the members can brag over who has the biggest balls. Personally, I'll stick with the site that's an educational portal as well as promotes and exhibits the professionalism of emergency service providers.

Any cop who gets sloppy or complains about having to hold a salute for half the time this kid did should be forced to watch this video.

Any cop who gets sloppy or complains about having to hold a salute for half the time this kid did should be forced to watch this video.

Trooper Andrew Fox of the Virginia State Police was killed in the line of duty last week. When 9 year old Lane Snow found out that the Trooper's funeral procession would be going by his house, he put his Cub Scout uniform on and stood by the road and saluted the entire procession which was 2 miles long. That means he held his salute for approximately 15 minutes.
Even through their grief, the Troopers and Officers in the procession took notice of this kid and his salute and honored him at his Cub Scout meeting this week. This kid is the proud future of America !!
http://www.wdbj7.com...s_story_display

OK, we're listening. In your (law enforcement-experienced) opinion, what exactly "is not right"?

ok conspiracy commandos let's hear it, what do you think the police did wrong this time ?
Unless you have extensive experience searching people in an arrest situation and finding and not finding hidden contraband on them then you would not be able to accurately say that something " isn't right."
People flip their cuffs all the time, cops miss hidden contraband on people all the time. the weapon in this case was a .380, anyone who knows guns knows how small a .380 is and how easy it is to conceal.
An a** crack and the crotch area can conceal almost anything, most certainly a .380
This is nowhere near the first time a person has committed suicide with a handgun that was missed during a search while in custody.
We have all seen the video of the man in San Bernadino California that made it into the interrogation room of the sheriff's office with a .45 in his waist and shot himself in the head. The guy in CA wasn't handcuffed but this story shows the mindet of people in custody.
In Jauary in Georgia a prisoner snuck a gun into the jail in his rectum and in May a prisoner that had been searched multiple times in Dallas was found to have a handgun in his crotch only after he was transferred to another facitlity. Just last week, a guy got a gun into a jail in nashville and it fell to the floor out of his pants in front of the judge that was booking him.
A further look into this case shows that there was a text on the perps who asking a guy to bring him a gun. The text was from earlier inthe day that he dealt with the cops. The perp called his girlfriend from the back of the radio car and said he had a gun and that he was scared. There were multiple civilian witnesses that said that the doors and windows of the RMP were all closed and that nobody was around it ( cops of civilians) when they heard the shot ring out and saw the cops go over to the car.
Sorry to burst the conspiracy bubble but there really is nothing here other than a drug dealer who was armed with a gun that wasn't smart enough to admit it to the cops when he was caught and decided to take the easy way out.

While this is difficult and likely extremely hard on those officers, they were faced with a instantaneously unfolding dynamic situation that resulted in their having no reasonable option other than to engage. They were not afforded concealment or cover from which to take slower more well placed shots, they were suddenly faced with being killed themselves. No doubt they'll take a lot of heat, but I'd be surprised to hear from any true "experts in the field" that this could have been handled differently.

The problems with employee retention go well beyond the issue of yearly salary, as a NYPD Police Officer at top pay who does a little bit of overtime is easily right at, if not over the $100,000 mark. Understandably in this day and age $100,000 is a middle class salary in the NY metro area, and often still requires a two-income household to raise a family, but the issues that plague employee retention is not so much the salary after the last few contracts, but a host of other issues.

The problems with employee retention go well beyond the issue of yearly salary, as a NYPD Police Officer at top pay who does a little bit of overtime is easily right at, if not over the $100,000 mark. Understandably in this day and age $100,000 is a middle class salary in the NY metro area, and often still requires a two-income household to raise a family, but the issues that plague employee retention is not so much the salary after the last few contracts, but a host of other issues.

I give the benefit of the doubt to those providers who deserve it, and unfortunately the majority don't. Of course there's lazy cops and firemen... The same way there's lazy doctors, nurses, and workers at Walmart. I still work as a medic and I will come off a midnight tour with the PD, straight to my EMS gig and get my coworkers up off the couch to go out and train after working all night. How many other medics/EMT's do that where I work? Bottom line is that if I don't get the guys up to train, then they won't take the initiative themselves. It's nothing against any of them, it's just the way it is.

Just a heads up cause I don't want to see anyone get burned, I would highly suggest not ordering any emergency services related equipment from Pacific Rescue, LLC (www.pacificrescue.com). I ordered various items from them back in May, and never received the items eventhough the money was debited from my account. After almost 30 phone calls and numerous emails from myself and the Better Business Bureau in an attempt to civilly rectify this issue, neither of us received any response from any representative of the company. My last option is small claims court which is not feasible, so basically they ripped me off.

Just a heads up cause I don't want to see anyone get burned, I would highly suggest not ordering any emergency services related equipment from Pacific Rescue, LLC (www.pacificrescue.com). I ordered various items from them back in May, and never received the items eventhough the money was debited from my account. After almost 30 phone calls and numerous emails from myself and the Better Business Bureau in an attempt to civilly rectify this issue, neither of us received any response from any representative of the company. My last option is small claims court which is not feasible, so basically they ripped me off.

Very saddened by this news - from those that i know that knew him, there has been nothing but good to say. Reflecting on awful events like this i often think of this quote:
"In the final analysis, the question of why bad things happen to good people transmutes itself into some very different questions, no longer asking why something happened, but asking how we will respond, what we intend to do now that it happened."
At work i'll strive to be a better provider, think twice about being grumpy when a run comes over during meal or for something that seems trivial. At home, ill take special care to make sure those close to me know i love them. Thats the least i can do.
RIP Paramedic Joyner and thank you for all that you did in the short time you were here.

T John, are there more resources out there to get more information about the 3 Echo program being rolled out in Minnesota?
I don't think that anyone can argue that a coordinated PD/FD/EMS response to these incidents is necessary, and I agree with you wholeheartedly T John that we do need to take a better look at how we respond to a hostile event. But there are a few factors, like them or not, that are going to hinder the type of aggressive coordinated response to these incidents we would all like to see.
No matter how necessary it is, no matter how much it will benefit the victims of a hostile incident, there is still one rather significant issue at hand that would need to be addressed before we can even consider placing non-sworn EMS providers in a hostile environment and task them with the extraction of wounded victims... LODI/LODD benefits for EMS responders. I understand this can vary from state to state, even agency to agency. I'm going based off my "local knowledge" of EMS systems in the Metro NY area.
There is a plethora of training programs to prepare EMS providers to work in a hostile/tactical environment. There is a plethora of high speed tactical medical equipment designed for EMS responders to operate in a tactical environment. We can supply EMS providers with ballistic protection and other specialized PPE to operate in the midst of a tactical assignment. The training and the equipment is readily available, and incorporating EMS into these types of responses is not an unrealistic or impossible venture.
Now try convincing a volunteer or even commercially paid EMS provider to don such equipment and go charging forward with PD into a potentially hostile environment. It is easy to have our judgment clouded by the thought of throwing on this high-speed equipment and go forth to render aid to our victims in the tactical theatre of operations. It sounds exciting, looks cool, has the CDI (chicks dig it) factor associated with it, and so on. But what if things go south, and now the EMS provider ends up a victim him/herself?
I know as an LEO, if I am seriously injured in the line of duty, I will have the financial security through a generous line of duty salary to pay my mortgage, my bills, etc. If I am killed during the scope of my employment as an LEO, my beneficiary will be well taken care of financially by my employer, union, and numerous police foundations. Now if I switch patches on my shirt and act in Paramedic mode, serious injury leads to basic workers compensation, and if I'm a volunteer who now can not work and provide for my family and pay my mortagage and bills, I have to hope the generous public will donate money to alleviate any financial strain I have endured as a result of a serious injury. Killed in the line of duty... maybe some donations for my family, but nothing guaranteed. Like it or not, these are issues that need to be raised first before we can expect any EMS provider to take on such a task. Anyone who says it's a selfish way to look at things or just doesn't care and is going to go charging in there anyway cause "it's the right thing to do", then go for it. When I was younger I had that mindset that I didn't care. As I've become more informed and a little more experienced, my mindset has changed a bit. It's not about being a coward, it's realizing that if we're going to take on this great responsibility, then take it on with addressing ALL of the variables and issues, not just the obvious issues of training and equipment. We are all adults who hopefully understand the dangers and magnitude of certain incidents and are therefore capable of making our own decisions about our fate, whether it's running into a burning house without PPE to effect a rescue, or entering an unsecured location that may contain a potential armed threat to render aid to the injured. Most times these are split second decisions made within a moments notice as an incident is rapidly unfolding in front of us; but if we're talking about a coordinated, pre-planned response, we need to look beyond the obvious operational and logistical issues.
And for those of you who are going to say, "well I can get injured or killed at the scene of an MVA as an EMT", you're right, you can get killed at an MVA, responding to a "fall down go boom", dealing with an intox in the back of the ambulance, and so on. That's why we take certain safeguards to make these scenes safe; road flares, blocking lanes of traffic, PD escorts, safe driving practices, etc. While we can't can't control every single variable at these "routine" incidents, we can control and mitigate the majority of them. Hostile scenes have so many variables that as Helicopper pointed out, it can take hours for a scene to be deemed safe. Is the shooter identified? Contained? In custody? Threat neutralized? Are there multiple shooters? Explosive/secondary devices? There are a lot of variables to process that typically require specialized PD resources (SWAT, bomb squads, aviation, etc.), and it may take time to mobilize such resources and then time for each resource to carry out its function. So I fully understand that anything can happen at any time, and that's why these issues of LODI/LODD benefits for EMS providers shouldn't just be limited to active shooter or hostile situations.

Most Tactical Medic courses are generally 5 days long, some are up to 10 days, which is not an easy venture for most providers who are working 2 or 3 jobs and can't get the training on job time. I've had the opportunity to take a few Tac Medic programs, and in terms of the medical aspect, if you're a competent Paramedic, you're not going to really learn anything new. Needle decompression is needle decompression, surgical airways are surgical airways, IV's are IV's, and intubation is intubation. There are some distinct differences in the priorities of care (C-A-B instead of A-B-C, importance of tourniquets which we're now seeing in conventional EMS, use of hemostatic agents, zones of care, less importance on spinal immobilization, Medicine Across the Barricade, remote patient assessments, among other things) and the environment you're expected to operate in is obviously quite different. A lot of it is tailoring your conventional EMS skills to the tactical theatre of operations.
The other important aspect, and this depends on how you are integrated into the tactical operation, is the actual law enforcement tactics part of it. Weapons familiarization and safety, basic team movement, defensive tactics, understanding cover and concealment and how to properly utilize each, and so on are all aspects of training some medics may have to go through if they are going to be a fully integrated member of the "stack". If the role of the medic is a less aggressive one, as in they are staged in a warm zone and will only be called up to the target location once the scene is relatively secure, then they may be able to get away with a little less tactics training, but having a knowledge of the latter is still beneficial. The other important aspect is preserving the crime scene; what you should do and shouldn't do to help preserve evidence while still providing necessary patient care.
Having the training is great, but as you pointed out, unless your local PD allows you to train with them, integrate your medical skills, and develop SOP's regarding the medic's role and operational guidelines in a tactical situation, all the training in the world won't lead to a "seamless" joint operation because the left hand won't know what the right hand is doing. Your local PD doesn't necessarily need a tactical team, because in the event of an active shooter incident it's going to be the first responding patrol officers who are going to deal with the situation. If your local PD does have a tactical team, then you have to come up with SOP's to integrate a civilian TEMS component to the team, including monthly training and operational standards/guidelines. I already discussed the LODI/LODD benefits before.

Most Tactical Medic courses are generally 5 days long, some are up to 10 days, which is not an easy venture for most providers who are working 2 or 3 jobs and can't get the training on job time. I've had the opportunity to take a few Tac Medic programs, and in terms of the medical aspect, if you're a competent Paramedic, you're not going to really learn anything new. Needle decompression is needle decompression, surgical airways are surgical airways, IV's are IV's, and intubation is intubation. There are some distinct differences in the priorities of care (C-A-B instead of A-B-C, importance of tourniquets which we're now seeing in conventional EMS, use of hemostatic agents, zones of care, less importance on spinal immobilization, Medicine Across the Barricade, remote patient assessments, among other things) and the environment you're expected to operate in is obviously quite different. A lot of it is tailoring your conventional EMS skills to the tactical theatre of operations.
The other important aspect, and this depends on how you are integrated into the tactical operation, is the actual law enforcement tactics part of it. Weapons familiarization and safety, basic team movement, defensive tactics, understanding cover and concealment and how to properly utilize each, and so on are all aspects of training some medics may have to go through if they are going to be a fully integrated member of the "stack". If the role of the medic is a less aggressive one, as in they are staged in a warm zone and will only be called up to the target location once the scene is relatively secure, then they may be able to get away with a little less tactics training, but having a knowledge of the latter is still beneficial. The other important aspect is preserving the crime scene; what you should do and shouldn't do to help preserve evidence while still providing necessary patient care.
Having the training is great, but as you pointed out, unless your local PD allows you to train with them, integrate your medical skills, and develop SOP's regarding the medic's role and operational guidelines in a tactical situation, all the training in the world won't lead to a "seamless" joint operation because the left hand won't know what the right hand is doing. Your local PD doesn't necessarily need a tactical team, because in the event of an active shooter incident it's going to be the first responding patrol officers who are going to deal with the situation. If your local PD does have a tactical team, then you have to come up with SOP's to integrate a civilian TEMS component to the team, including monthly training and operational standards/guidelines. I already discussed the LODI/LODD benefits before.

I give the benefit of the doubt to those providers who deserve it, and unfortunately the majority don't. Of course there's lazy cops and firemen... The same way there's lazy doctors, nurses, and workers at Walmart. I still work as a medic and I will come off a midnight tour with the PD, straight to my EMS gig and get my coworkers up off the couch to go out and train after working all night. How many other medics/EMT's do that where I work? Bottom line is that if I don't get the guys up to train, then they won't take the initiative themselves. It's nothing against any of them, it's just the way it is.

I give the benefit of the doubt to those providers who deserve it, and unfortunately the majority don't. Of course there's lazy cops and firemen... The same way there's lazy doctors, nurses, and workers at Walmart. I still work as a medic and I will come off a midnight tour with the PD, straight to my EMS gig and get my coworkers up off the couch to go out and train after working all night. How many other medics/EMT's do that where I work? Bottom line is that if I don't get the guys up to train, then they won't take the initiative themselves. It's nothing against any of them, it's just the way it is.

I wholeheartedly agree with you and your assessment of this topic and the importance of working together and being better prepared to respond to these types of unique and overwhelming incidents. I get it, I agree with it, and I support the notion.
That being said, it's not a question of if we need it, it's how do we implement it? This is why I'm curious about the 3E program. The benefits issue aside, are we going to be able to "force" volunteers to take on this responsibility? For a career crew we can make this a part of the job responsibility, but what about Susie Homemaker who volunteers 6 hours a week to get out of the house? How do we prepare an EMS agency who has a crew with the average age of 65 to respond to this type of incident? How do we prepare certain EMS providers who may have a hard enough time managing a BLS patient in a nice controlled environment, and now expect them to operate in a more austere environment?
We need to be brought into 2012 with the mere BASICS of EMS, such as disability benefits, comparable wages and financial benefits, professional standards, competent/well trained providers, better training and educational programs/opportunities, more advancement opportunities, changing the mindset of your typical EMS provider to go from being a stagnant, lazy, uninterested employee whose priorities are sleeping and what they're eating for lunch and instead fostering employees who are motivated; motivated to train, motivated to expand their scope of practice, expand their responsibilites and professional capabilities and so forth. With a lot of EMS providers, I just don't see it. In the Fire Service and Law Enforcement there is some level of motivation to excel or put in the extra effort because doing so leads to professional/career advancement, either through promotion or through reassignment to a desired specialized detail (SWAT, Rescue Company, etc.), which then leads to other perks (i.e. increased pay, future advancements, etc.)
Before we can charge ahead and add this huge responsibility onto an already fractured and disorganized service, we first need to address the basic issues/problems that plague the EMS service.

T John, are there more resources out there to get more information about the 3 Echo program being rolled out in Minnesota?
I don't think that anyone can argue that a coordinated PD/FD/EMS response to these incidents is necessary, and I agree with you wholeheartedly T John that we do need to take a better look at how we respond to a hostile event. But there are a few factors, like them or not, that are going to hinder the type of aggressive coordinated response to these incidents we would all like to see.
No matter how necessary it is, no matter how much it will benefit the victims of a hostile incident, there is still one rather significant issue at hand that would need to be addressed before we can even consider placing non-sworn EMS providers in a hostile environment and task them with the extraction of wounded victims... LODI/LODD benefits for EMS responders. I understand this can vary from state to state, even agency to agency. I'm going based off my "local knowledge" of EMS systems in the Metro NY area.
There is a plethora of training programs to prepare EMS providers to work in a hostile/tactical environment. There is a plethora of high speed tactical medical equipment designed for EMS responders to operate in a tactical environment. We can supply EMS providers with ballistic protection and other specialized PPE to operate in the midst of a tactical assignment. The training and the equipment is readily available, and incorporating EMS into these types of responses is not an unrealistic or impossible venture.
Now try convincing a volunteer or even commercially paid EMS provider to don such equipment and go charging forward with PD into a potentially hostile environment. It is easy to have our judgment clouded by the thought of throwing on this high-speed equipment and go forth to render aid to our victims in the tactical theatre of operations. It sounds exciting, looks cool, has the CDI (chicks dig it) factor associated with it, and so on. But what if things go south, and now the EMS provider ends up a victim him/herself?
I know as an LEO, if I am seriously injured in the line of duty, I will have the financial security through a generous line of duty salary to pay my mortgage, my bills, etc. If I am killed during the scope of my employment as an LEO, my beneficiary will be well taken care of financially by my employer, union, and numerous police foundations. Now if I switch patches on my shirt and act in Paramedic mode, serious injury leads to basic workers compensation, and if I'm a volunteer who now can not work and provide for my family and pay my mortagage and bills, I have to hope the generous public will donate money to alleviate any financial strain I have endured as a result of a serious injury. Killed in the line of duty... maybe some donations for my family, but nothing guaranteed. Like it or not, these are issues that need to be raised first before we can expect any EMS provider to take on such a task. Anyone who says it's a selfish way to look at things or just doesn't care and is going to go charging in there anyway cause "it's the right thing to do", then go for it. When I was younger I had that mindset that I didn't care. As I've become more informed and a little more experienced, my mindset has changed a bit. It's not about being a coward, it's realizing that if we're going to take on this great responsibility, then take it on with addressing ALL of the variables and issues, not just the obvious issues of training and equipment. We are all adults who hopefully understand the dangers and magnitude of certain incidents and are therefore capable of making our own decisions about our fate, whether it's running into a burning house without PPE to effect a rescue, or entering an unsecured location that may contain a potential armed threat to render aid to the injured. Most times these are split second decisions made within a moments notice as an incident is rapidly unfolding in front of us; but if we're talking about a coordinated, pre-planned response, we need to look beyond the obvious operational and logistical issues.
And for those of you who are going to say, "well I can get injured or killed at the scene of an MVA as an EMT", you're right, you can get killed at an MVA, responding to a "fall down go boom", dealing with an intox in the back of the ambulance, and so on. That's why we take certain safeguards to make these scenes safe; road flares, blocking lanes of traffic, PD escorts, safe driving practices, etc. While we can't can't control every single variable at these "routine" incidents, we can control and mitigate the majority of them. Hostile scenes have so many variables that as Helicopper pointed out, it can take hours for a scene to be deemed safe. Is the shooter identified? Contained? In custody? Threat neutralized? Are there multiple shooters? Explosive/secondary devices? There are a lot of variables to process that typically require specialized PD resources (SWAT, bomb squads, aviation, etc.), and it may take time to mobilize such resources and then time for each resource to carry out its function. So I fully understand that anything can happen at any time, and that's why these issues of LODI/LODD benefits for EMS providers shouldn't just be limited to active shooter or hostile situations.

This was sent to us by our brothers out west. Real class acts!

I wholeheartedly agree with you and your assessment of this topic and the importance of working together and being better prepared to respond to these types of unique and overwhelming incidents. I get it, I agree with it, and I support the notion.
That being said, it's not a question of if we need it, it's how do we implement it? This is why I'm curious about the 3E program. The benefits issue aside, are we going to be able to "force" volunteers to take on this responsibility? For a career crew we can make this a part of the job responsibility, but what about Susie Homemaker who volunteers 6 hours a week to get out of the house? How do we prepare an EMS agency who has a crew with the average age of 65 to respond to this type of incident? How do we prepare certain EMS providers who may have a hard enough time managing a BLS patient in a nice controlled environment, and now expect them to operate in a more austere environment?
We need to be brought into 2012 with the mere BASICS of EMS, such as disability benefits, comparable wages and financial benefits, professional standards, competent/well trained providers, better training and educational programs/opportunities, more advancement opportunities, changing the mindset of your typical EMS provider to go from being a stagnant, lazy, uninterested employee whose priorities are sleeping and what they're eating for lunch and instead fostering employees who are motivated; motivated to train, motivated to expand their scope of practice, expand their responsibilites and professional capabilities and so forth. With a lot of EMS providers, I just don't see it. In the Fire Service and Law Enforcement there is some level of motivation to excel or put in the extra effort because doing so leads to professional/career advancement, either through promotion or through reassignment to a desired specialized detail (SWAT, Rescue Company, etc.), which then leads to other perks (i.e. increased pay, future advancements, etc.)
Before we can charge ahead and add this huge responsibility onto an already fractured and disorganized service, we first need to address the basic issues/problems that plague the EMS service.

Feel free to shoot me a private message here and I will try to get you some more details, or at least get you in touch with the program coordinator. They are in the final staging of receiving final DHS/FEMA approval for the program which will make it more readily available. It has been rolled out in the metro region (Minneapolis/St. Paul area) and we are starting to move it into the more suburban communities.
I realize that benefit laws vary from state to state and even department to department. I agree with Dinosaur that this is something that should be lobbied for. I am sure that we all recognize that much of what we do today is governed by the way it was 100 years ago - we need to be brought into 2012 and look toward the future. The risks we face today have changed and the services we provide have increased.
Agency Cooperation
One thing I have noticed is that 3E (and similar multi-agency training programs) brings people together. While it may be training and a policy that, hopefully, we never have to put to use, it gets people in the same room working together. I was raised on the east coast and grew up in emergency services there, so I understand the silos and even, unfortunately, the turf wars that exist. To be frank, its time to get over it. These "hostile events" require cooperation and coordination. There isn't such a thing as "that's not my job" anymore. The public doesn't care and won't tolerate that excuse. The person that is bleeding inside an empty classroom and going into shock doesn't care; they want help. We are all trained to recognize and manage risk. It is part of our job and what we do. I have a very close working relationship with our local law enforcement here. The only reason that exists is because we work to make it be that way. In closing, agencies that begin to plan for these hostile events may find themselves developing a better day-to-day working relationships between each other. We, as emergency first responders, know that we are there to help support one another, regardless of what our badge or patch says.

I wholeheartedly agree with you and your assessment of this topic and the importance of working together and being better prepared to respond to these types of unique and overwhelming incidents. I get it, I agree with it, and I support the notion.
That being said, it's not a question of if we need it, it's how do we implement it? This is why I'm curious about the 3E program. The benefits issue aside, are we going to be able to "force" volunteers to take on this responsibility? For a career crew we can make this a part of the job responsibility, but what about Susie Homemaker who volunteers 6 hours a week to get out of the house? How do we prepare an EMS agency who has a crew with the average age of 65 to respond to this type of incident? How do we prepare certain EMS providers who may have a hard enough time managing a BLS patient in a nice controlled environment, and now expect them to operate in a more austere environment?
We need to be brought into 2012 with the mere BASICS of EMS, such as disability benefits, comparable wages and financial benefits, professional standards, competent/well trained providers, better training and educational programs/opportunities, more advancement opportunities, changing the mindset of your typical EMS provider to go from being a stagnant, lazy, uninterested employee whose priorities are sleeping and what they're eating for lunch and instead fostering employees who are motivated; motivated to train, motivated to expand their scope of practice, expand their responsibilites and professional capabilities and so forth. With a lot of EMS providers, I just don't see it. In the Fire Service and Law Enforcement there is some level of motivation to excel or put in the extra effort because doing so leads to professional/career advancement, either through promotion or through reassignment to a desired specialized detail (SWAT, Rescue Company, etc.), which then leads to other perks (i.e. increased pay, future advancements, etc.)
Before we can charge ahead and add this huge responsibility onto an already fractured and disorganized service, we first need to address the basic issues/problems that plague the EMS service.

T John, are there more resources out there to get more information about the 3 Echo program being rolled out in Minnesota?
I don't think that anyone can argue that a coordinated PD/FD/EMS response to these incidents is necessary, and I agree with you wholeheartedly T John that we do need to take a better look at how we respond to a hostile event. But there are a few factors, like them or not, that are going to hinder the type of aggressive coordinated response to these incidents we would all like to see.
No matter how necessary it is, no matter how much it will benefit the victims of a hostile incident, there is still one rather significant issue at hand that would need to be addressed before we can even consider placing non-sworn EMS providers in a hostile environment and task them with the extraction of wounded victims... LODI/LODD benefits for EMS responders. I understand this can vary from state to state, even agency to agency. I'm going based off my "local knowledge" of EMS systems in the Metro NY area.
There is a plethora of training programs to prepare EMS providers to work in a hostile/tactical environment. There is a plethora of high speed tactical medical equipment designed for EMS responders to operate in a tactical environment. We can supply EMS providers with ballistic protection and other specialized PPE to operate in the midst of a tactical assignment. The training and the equipment is readily available, and incorporating EMS into these types of responses is not an unrealistic or impossible venture.
Now try convincing a volunteer or even commercially paid EMS provider to don such equipment and go charging forward with PD into a potentially hostile environment. It is easy to have our judgment clouded by the thought of throwing on this high-speed equipment and go forth to render aid to our victims in the tactical theatre of operations. It sounds exciting, looks cool, has the CDI (chicks dig it) factor associated with it, and so on. But what if things go south, and now the EMS provider ends up a victim him/herself?
I know as an LEO, if I am seriously injured in the line of duty, I will have the financial security through a generous line of duty salary to pay my mortgage, my bills, etc. If I am killed during the scope of my employment as an LEO, my beneficiary will be well taken care of financially by my employer, union, and numerous police foundations. Now if I switch patches on my shirt and act in Paramedic mode, serious injury leads to basic workers compensation, and if I'm a volunteer who now can not work and provide for my family and pay my mortagage and bills, I have to hope the generous public will donate money to alleviate any financial strain I have endured as a result of a serious injury. Killed in the line of duty... maybe some donations for my family, but nothing guaranteed. Like it or not, these are issues that need to be raised first before we can expect any EMS provider to take on such a task. Anyone who says it's a selfish way to look at things or just doesn't care and is going to go charging in there anyway cause "it's the right thing to do", then go for it. When I was younger I had that mindset that I didn't care. As I've become more informed and a little more experienced, my mindset has changed a bit. It's not about being a coward, it's realizing that if we're going to take on this great responsibility, then take it on with addressing ALL of the variables and issues, not just the obvious issues of training and equipment. We are all adults who hopefully understand the dangers and magnitude of certain incidents and are therefore capable of making our own decisions about our fate, whether it's running into a burning house without PPE to effect a rescue, or entering an unsecured location that may contain a potential armed threat to render aid to the injured. Most times these are split second decisions made within a moments notice as an incident is rapidly unfolding in front of us; but if we're talking about a coordinated, pre-planned response, we need to look beyond the obvious operational and logistical issues.
And for those of you who are going to say, "well I can get injured or killed at the scene of an MVA as an EMT", you're right, you can get killed at an MVA, responding to a "fall down go boom", dealing with an intox in the back of the ambulance, and so on. That's why we take certain safeguards to make these scenes safe; road flares, blocking lanes of traffic, PD escorts, safe driving practices, etc. While we can't can't control every single variable at these "routine" incidents, we can control and mitigate the majority of them. Hostile scenes have so many variables that as Helicopper pointed out, it can take hours for a scene to be deemed safe. Is the shooter identified? Contained? In custody? Threat neutralized? Are there multiple shooters? Explosive/secondary devices? There are a lot of variables to process that typically require specialized PD resources (SWAT, bomb squads, aviation, etc.), and it may take time to mobilize such resources and then time for each resource to carry out its function. So I fully understand that anything can happen at any time, and that's why these issues of LODI/LODD benefits for EMS providers shouldn't just be limited to active shooter or hostile situations.