JJB531

Any cop who gets sloppy or complains about having to hold a salute for half the time this kid did should be forced to watch this video.

The problems with employee retention go well beyond the issue of yearly salary, as a NYPD Police Officer at top pay who does a little bit of overtime is easily right at, if not over the $100,000 mark. Understandably in this day and age $100,000 is a middle class salary in the NY metro area, and often still requires a two-income household to raise a family, but the issues that plague employee retention is not so much the salary after the last few contracts, but a host of other issues.

Yes

Just a heads up cause I don't want to see anyone get burned, I would highly suggest not ordering any emergency services related equipment from Pacific Rescue, LLC (www.pacificrescue.com). I ordered various items from them back in May, and never received the items eventhough the money was debited from my account. After almost 30 phone calls and numerous emails from myself and the Better Business Bureau in an attempt to civilly rectify this issue, neither of us received any response from any representative of the company. My last option is small claims court which is not feasible, so basically they ripped me off.

Of course it would be a disaster, for all the reasons you mentioned a whole lot more. A large scale incident like this with 50+ victims would more then likely it would come down to depending on the commercial providers, especially TransCare and Empress, to send any available resources they had from both their 911 and transport divisions. As mentioned before, there is training available, none really locally but it's out there. The problem comes back to your second point. Fire and EMS can go for all the training in the world to prepare themselves for one of these incidents, but unless they have a good working relationship with their PD, and can train together to respond to one of these incidents, you'll end up with a disaster on your hands if the bell ever rings because it won't be a seamless, joint operation. Instead it will be the PD doing their thing, while FD and EMS will be trying to do their thing without really knowing where they fit into the equation. If FD and EMS start to go operational on the inner perimeter without the PD's knowledge because they were afforded some training by a third party training organization, especially if they are volunteers showing up in "plain-clothes", it could be a nightmare, and can hinder with the PD tactical operation. To really prepare for this type of scenario takes a lot of training, equipment, and most importantly pre-planning with all 3 agencies sitting down together and coming up with written SOP's so there are no questions about each agency's roles and responsibilities when it's time to go operational.

Most Tactical Medic courses are generally 5 days long, some are up to 10 days, which is not an easy venture for most providers who are working 2 or 3 jobs and can't get the training on job time. I've had the opportunity to take a few Tac Medic programs, and in terms of the medical aspect, if you're a competent Paramedic, you're not going to really learn anything new. Needle decompression is needle decompression, surgical airways are surgical airways, IV's are IV's, and intubation is intubation. There are some distinct differences in the priorities of care (C-A-B instead of A-B-C, importance of tourniquets which we're now seeing in conventional EMS, use of hemostatic agents, zones of care, less importance on spinal immobilization, Medicine Across the Barricade, remote patient assessments, among other things) and the environment you're expected to operate in is obviously quite different. A lot of it is tailoring your conventional EMS skills to the tactical theatre of operations. The other important aspect, and this depends on how you are integrated into the tactical operation, is the actual law enforcement tactics part of it. Weapons familiarization and safety, basic team movement, defensive tactics, understanding cover and concealment and how to properly utilize each, and so on are all aspects of training some medics may have to go through if they are going to be a fully integrated member of the "stack". If the role of the medic is a less aggressive one, as in they are staged in a warm zone and will only be called up to the target location once the scene is relatively secure, then they may be able to get away with a little less tactics training, but having a knowledge of the latter is still beneficial. The other important aspect is preserving the crime scene; what you should do and shouldn't do to help preserve evidence while still providing necessary patient care. Having the training is great, but as you pointed out, unless your local PD allows you to train with them, integrate your medical skills, and develop SOP's regarding the medic's role and operational guidelines in a tactical situation, all the training in the world won't lead to a "seamless" joint operation because the left hand won't know what the right hand is doing. Your local PD doesn't necessarily need a tactical team, because in the event of an active shooter incident it's going to be the first responding patrol officers who are going to deal with the situation. If your local PD does have a tactical team, then you have to come up with SOP's to integrate a civilian TEMS component to the team, including monthly training and operational standards/guidelines. I already discussed the LODI/LODD benefits before.

I give the benefit of the doubt to those providers who deserve it, and unfortunately the majority don't. Of course there's lazy cops and firemen... The same way there's lazy doctors, nurses, and workers at Walmart. I still work as a medic and I will come off a midnight tour with the PD, straight to my EMS gig and get my coworkers up off the couch to go out and train after working all night. How many other medics/EMT's do that where I work? Bottom line is that if I don't get the guys up to train, then they won't take the initiative themselves. It's nothing against any of them, it's just the way it is.

I wholeheartedly agree with you and your assessment of this topic and the importance of working together and being better prepared to respond to these types of unique and overwhelming incidents. I get it, I agree with it, and I support the notion. That being said, it's not a question of if we need it, it's how do we implement it? This is why I'm curious about the 3E program. The benefits issue aside, are we going to be able to "force" volunteers to take on this responsibility? For a career crew we can make this a part of the job responsibility, but what about Susie Homemaker who volunteers 6 hours a week to get out of the house? How do we prepare an EMS agency who has a crew with the average age of 65 to respond to this type of incident? How do we prepare certain EMS providers who may have a hard enough time managing a BLS patient in a nice controlled environment, and now expect them to operate in a more austere environment? We need to be brought into 2012 with the mere BASICS of EMS, such as disability benefits, comparable wages and financial benefits, professional standards, competent/well trained providers, better training and educational programs/opportunities, more advancement opportunities, changing the mindset of your typical EMS provider to go from being a stagnant, lazy, uninterested employee whose priorities are sleeping and what they're eating for lunch and instead fostering employees who are motivated; motivated to train, motivated to expand their scope of practice, expand their responsibilites and professional capabilities and so forth. With a lot of EMS providers, I just don't see it. In the Fire Service and Law Enforcement there is some level of motivation to excel or put in the extra effort because doing so leads to professional/career advancement, either through promotion or through reassignment to a desired specialized detail (SWAT, Rescue Company, etc.), which then leads to other perks (i.e. increased pay, future advancements, etc.) Before we can charge ahead and add this huge responsibility onto an already fractured and disorganized service, we first need to address the basic issues/problems that plague the EMS service.

T John, are there more resources out there to get more information about the 3 Echo program being rolled out in Minnesota? I don't think that anyone can argue that a coordinated PD/FD/EMS response to these incidents is necessary, and I agree with you wholeheartedly T John that we do need to take a better look at how we respond to a hostile event. But there are a few factors, like them or not, that are going to hinder the type of aggressive coordinated response to these incidents we would all like to see. No matter how necessary it is, no matter how much it will benefit the victims of a hostile incident, there is still one rather significant issue at hand that would need to be addressed before we can even consider placing non-sworn EMS providers in a hostile environment and task them with the extraction of wounded victims... LODI/LODD benefits for EMS responders. I understand this can vary from state to state, even agency to agency. I'm going based off my "local knowledge" of EMS systems in the Metro NY area. There is a plethora of training programs to prepare EMS providers to work in a hostile/tactical environment. There is a plethora of high speed tactical medical equipment designed for EMS responders to operate in a tactical environment. We can supply EMS providers with ballistic protection and other specialized PPE to operate in the midst of a tactical assignment. The training and the equipment is readily available, and incorporating EMS into these types of responses is not an unrealistic or impossible venture. Now try convincing a volunteer or even commercially paid EMS provider to don such equipment and go charging forward with PD into a potentially hostile environment. It is easy to have our judgment clouded by the thought of throwing on this high-speed equipment and go forth to render aid to our victims in the tactical theatre of operations. It sounds exciting, looks cool, has the CDI (chicks dig it) factor associated with it, and so on. But what if things go south, and now the EMS provider ends up a victim him/herself? I know as an LEO, if I am seriously injured in the line of duty, I will have the financial security through a generous line of duty salary to pay my mortgage, my bills, etc. If I am killed during the scope of my employment as an LEO, my beneficiary will be well taken care of financially by my employer, union, and numerous police foundations. Now if I switch patches on my shirt and act in Paramedic mode, serious injury leads to basic workers compensation, and if I'm a volunteer who now can not work and provide for my family and pay my mortagage and bills, I have to hope the generous public will donate money to alleviate any financial strain I have endured as a result of a serious injury. Killed in the line of duty... maybe some donations for my family, but nothing guaranteed. Like it or not, these are issues that need to be raised first before we can expect any EMS provider to take on such a task. Anyone who says it's a selfish way to look at things or just doesn't care and is going to go charging in there anyway cause "it's the right thing to do", then go for it. When I was younger I had that mindset that I didn't care. As I've become more informed and a little more experienced, my mindset has changed a bit. It's not about being a coward, it's realizing that if we're going to take on this great responsibility, then take it on with addressing ALL of the variables and issues, not just the obvious issues of training and equipment. We are all adults who hopefully understand the dangers and magnitude of certain incidents and are therefore capable of making our own decisions about our fate, whether it's running into a burning house without PPE to effect a rescue, or entering an unsecured location that may contain a potential armed threat to render aid to the injured. Most times these are split second decisions made within a moments notice as an incident is rapidly unfolding in front of us; but if we're talking about a coordinated, pre-planned response, we need to look beyond the obvious operational and logistical issues. And for those of you who are going to say, "well I can get injured or killed at the scene of an MVA as an EMT", you're right, you can get killed at an MVA, responding to a "fall down go boom", dealing with an intox in the back of the ambulance, and so on. That's why we take certain safeguards to make these scenes safe; road flares, blocking lanes of traffic, PD escorts, safe driving practices, etc. While we can't can't control every single variable at these "routine" incidents, we can control and mitigate the majority of them. Hostile scenes have so many variables that as Helicopper pointed out, it can take hours for a scene to be deemed safe. Is the shooter identified? Contained? In custody? Threat neutralized? Are there multiple shooters? Explosive/secondary devices? There are a lot of variables to process that typically require specialized PD resources (SWAT, bomb squads, aviation, etc.), and it may take time to mobilize such resources and then time for each resource to carry out its function. So I fully understand that anything can happen at any time, and that's why these issues of LODI/LODD benefits for EMS providers shouldn't just be limited to active shooter or hostile situations.

Truly a sad day for NY10570's friends, coworkers, family, and his extended family here on EMTBravo. It didn't take a very long to realize NY10570 was a consummate professional who loved being a Paramedic. The knowledge he shared with the EMTBravo community, and the manner in which he articulated his responses and views was a testament to the provider and the person he IS. It's a huge loss for the EMS and EMTBravo family... I'm not the sentimental type but the loss of NY10570 is a complete shock and is being felt by all the active members here... There will always be a void here on EMTBravo without him around. Godspeed Brother.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/fdny_sued_over_fatal_heart_case_ZGvPR5yeIgh8rsfr62dh0J

Hoping for a positive outcome...

You're absolutely right BFD, the firearm itself is not the end-all, say-all; more significant is the hands that possess that firearm. A firearm in the hands of an individual who is proficient in its use can change the course of events with just one well placed round. When engaging an armed individual, the most effective way to end the fight is by placing accurate and effective gunfire on the perpetrator... the firearm itself might as well be a water gun if you can't utilze it to its maximum effectiveness through consistent and continual training. I sometimes shake my head at Police Officers who go to the range twice a year for on-the-job qualifications and don't bother training on their own the rest of the year. When the bell rings and you're engaging an armed perp in a gunfight, you just entered the big leagues. You think Major League baseball players go to the batting cage twice a year? PGA golfers go to the driving range twice a year? I never understood the rationale of going to the range just twice a year. If you're legally allowed to possess a firearm it's "better to have and not need, then to need and not have".

It's because of his initiative to reach out to the Journal News and issue a press release this "story" even made it to the paper and you guys have something to say about it? Maybe if someone from DES took the initiative our emergency service "brethren" wouldn't have to get all bent out of shape over absolutely nothing.

It would depend how many tac medics were on call/working or if they had to be recalled, and depends on their SOP's whether they can operate as a stand-alone tac medic provider or if they have to be attached to the tactical team, which is more then likely an on-call team which takes time to assemble.

And people wonder why I carry a firearm to go food shopping....

Agreed mtnmedic... Field pronouncements are conducted in numerous systems, including Westchester County, as it is pointless transporting a patient whose been in "routine "arrest (as in no extenuating circumstances) for 30 minutes with no response to ACLS interventions. I've never had a problem with a death notification to family members. The more empathetic, and more importantly, professional you are in your delivery of the notification, the less likely you will have an issue with family.

Amazing job by this Officer... A true warrior... Despite an unprovoked, severe, visually impairing injury he is able to draw his firearm and place accurate and effective gunfire on an aggressively advancing armed perpetrator and stop the immediate threat, essentially saving his own life... Outstanding job and best wishes on his recovery.

No need to apologize as I did not take your post as an insult or "cop bashing" in any way, and I didn't take your post to heart. I was clarifying the roles, responsibilites, and dedicated mindset to service that true ESU officers possess. If you consider disseminating information to the membership who clearly don't understand the role of an ESU cop, then I guess you can call me "hypersensitive". There's a proven track record here on EMTBravo that most assume that ESU cops are cutting people out of cars and banging down doors on a daily basis despite the fact that the truth is that a significant number of requests for ESU services are to handle routine, even mundane, calls for service such as sick raccoon calls which some assume are simply calls for the "greenest of animal control officers" and not an ESU function.

Your sentiments are a common misconception amongst the uninformed because for most ESU guys, it doesn't suck. The key element of the mnemonic ESU is SERVICE. ESU cops are there as a service to their fellow patrol officers by utilizing specialized training and providing specialized equipment to get a job done that a patrol cop can't possibly do with his/her level of training and equipment at hand. Whether it's a sick raccoon, a cop who locks his/her keys in their patrol car, retrieving a piece of evidence from an area that may be inaccessible to patrol officers, all the way up to the big pin job or the big newsworthy hostage job, real ESU cops enjoy being an asset to their fellow officers and take pride in their work, from the "ridiculous animal job" to the heavy jobs. A lot of people think an ESU cop spends his days cutting people out of cars and booming doors. The reality is most of the time is spent with the seemingly mundane jobs, but even the mudnane jobs have their role. An ESU cop who becomes proficient handling animals and utilizing the tranquilizer guns and animal nooses by responding to "all those silly animal jobs" will be more proficient when he/she is now executing a search warrant and is tasked with utilizing the same equipment to neutralize the drug dealers aggressive pit bull.

nycemt, are you kidding me about the media coverage of this incident? Every media outlet has highlighted the story as "NYPD shoots unarmed woman". Instead, how about "NYPD Shoots Career Criminal Who Attempted to Run Over 2 Cops".

Sometimes people need to hear the cold hard truth that they need to be held accountable for their own actions, PERIOD. Everyone today, especially individuals who are associated with criminal elements, always love to place the blame on everyone else.. it's never their fault... it's always the police officer or someone elses fault. I have no problem calling it like I see it, and I'll say it again, if you try to kill or injure a cop, you DESERVE what you have coming to you, as long as it is justified within the use of force continuum outlined in the Criminal Procedure Law. When you deal with certain individuals in society, this "appearance" stuff sounds good, and is usually done as a political move by higher-ups to quell the political firestorm that follows these incidents... unfortuntely though instead of quelling things, certain groups see our silence and willingness to "apologize" or be "understandable" as a sign of weakness, and then they exploit that perceived weakness, and you know what ends up happening then? More cops get killed and hurt. Don't believe me, ask any seasoned police officer who works in a busy urban department. I don't need you to tell me about the concept of Judge, Jury, and Executioner doesn't fit the job of a police officer. The concept of Judge, Jury, and Executioner is related to my opinion towards individuals who attempt to kill or injure another cop. I go out there every night, treat people with respect and fairness, and have never had a civilian complaint lodged against me. But playing Mr. Nice is often perceived as weakness by hardcore criminals... goes back to what I said about the whole exploitation of a police officers perceived weakness... and if I have to hurt someones feelings to get my point across that I am not going to be taken advantage of, then so be it. You have no idea what it's like to be a police officer in some of these neighborhoods. I don't care if you have family who are cops. I don't care if you have friends who are cops. Until you put on that uniform and walk a patrol post and put up with the crap, the absolute outright crap police officers have to deal with from an ungrateful public who they protect and serve, in my opinion you will continue to be severely misguided.

Nothing I say, or what any other police officer says for that matter, whether good or bad, is going to prevent a situation like this from happening again. People are going to do what THEY choose to do, and when someone make a conscious decision to flee the police, endanger the lives of everyone around them, and then endanger the lives of two Police Officers, they are going to reap what they sow. It's pretty simple, when a Police Officer is pointing a firearm at you and is ordering you to get out of your vehicle, YOU DO IT! Call it common sense, call it respect for law enforcement, call it whatever you want. When YOU choose to ignore a police officer's lawful orders and then try to continue to flee placing the officer in fear for his/her life, YOU just bought the ticket for the show. I'm going to stand by my comments as Judge, Jury, and Executioner in this case because the FACTS appear to me to be evidently clear as to what transpired. In this case, the ONLY REASON this individual is deceased is because of the decisions SHE MADE, no one else.

Without repeating the sentiments of GrumpyFF, M'Ave, and Crime Cop.... I will say that unless you put on that shield and gun belt every day and deal with the outlandish nature of working as a police officer in an urban environment, then we don't care about what anyone has to say about what a police officer says about an individual who attempts to kill one of our brother or sister police officers. Did she deserve to die? She made that decision for herself... it wasn't the "trigger happy Po-Po". When she chose to flee the police in a stolen vehicle, refused to surrender to the police when ordered, and then placed two police officers in harms way with a moving vehicle, she asked for it and the police delivered, plain and simple. If she didn't deserve to die, then she should have just stopped the vehicle, shut it off, and exited the vehicle when ordered to by the Police, period. Did she deserve to go to jail... you answered most likely? Most likely? How about definitely. She was driving a stolen vehicle that the owner positively identified her as the one who stole the vehicle at gunpoint. Doesn't get much more clear cut then that. Bunch of Monday Morning Quarterbacks who have never walked a beat... someone threatens the life of a police officer, they DESERVE what they have coming to them because THEY asked for it.

Speaking as just a member, and not a moderator here, just wanted to offer my 2 little cents, for what it's worth.... This site can be a buff site, for those of us who want it to be. If looking at pictures of houses burning down and car accidents is what floats your boat, by all means knock yourself out, no one is stopping you. For others, this site can be a source of information and education. Personally that's more along the lines of my level of interest, but either way, as Seth said the site is what we make of it. I've found in my short time as a Moderator, it's a confusing position to be in at times. Sometimes there may be a level of "over-moderation". I don't think it comes from a malicious or bad place, but conversations can spiral out of control VERY quickly, and if a period of hours goes by where no Moderator visits the site, it could turn into the "wild west". To prevent this the staff may take a stronger stance on moderating certain issues, simply because before things spiral out of control, it's easier to "nip it in the bud". It's done to prevent EMTBravo from becoming another rant site full of useless bantering and garbage, but where does the staff draw the line? When is the line crossed between "over-moderating" and protecting the integrity of the site? It's a fine line... and is open to interpretation by each and every one of us. I don't see any problem with being an opinionated individual. To a certain degree we're all very opinionated and set in our ways. Being opinionated is not the problem. But we should be able to address our opinions like a professional/adult and maintain some level of professional decorum. The childish name-calling and other stuff that goes on at times is extremely counter-productive, and in my eyes does nothing to earn any level of respect from the individuals here who conduct themselves as professionals. Everyone likes to compare EMTBravo to the "firehouse kitchen table"... but it's not. It's a public forum made up of emergency service providers and members of the GENERAL PUBLIC who we serve. Case in point... peterose313. Peterose, I hope you don't mind me using you as an example, but after reading your post, it reaffirms in my mind that there are people on here who are the everyday "civilian" from the communities that we serve. Peterose happens to be very active in the forums, but I'm sure there are plenty of community members who "run silent, run deep" and just read the content contained in the site. What is said here, from every single one of us, is a reflection of the emergency service community as a whole. How do we continue, as staff and membership, to ensure that the reflection this site leaves on our "guests" from outside the emergency services community is a positive one?