JJB531

The accident was from 2008. Every news outlet reported that the accident occurred in Garrison, which is in Putnam County. 2 victims were removed on the Putnam County side, 2 on the Orange County side, and the boat was grounded on the Orange County side. Initial 911 calls went to Putnam County 911. Appears it was deemed the accident initiated on the Putnam side in PCSO jurisdiction. http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=6293347

PCSO patrols the Hudson River and Lake Oscawana. Carmel PD patrols Lake Mahopac. If you're really that curious, both departments websites offer detailed information on their respective marine units, you just have to take the time to look it up.

Besides FDNY and the voluntary hospitals that still run their own EMS trucks (i.e. Lenox Hill) as a part of the FDNY 911 System, a few private companies are contracted out by hospitals (i.e. Montefiore, St. Barnabus, Beth Israel, Mt. Sinai, etc.) to staff EMS Ambulances that bear the hospitals name on the ambulance. Transcare is a pretty large provider of 911 EMS coverage in NYC, I believe SeniorCare was recently awarded a few contracts for hospitals to provide 911 service.

Unfortunately Crime Cop's interpretation of these kids is not that far off. I know that everyone finds it hard to believe that a 12 year old could be a "hardened criminal", or at least have the personality and the likes of one. But until you have dealt with some of these kids, you really have no idea. I understand that 12 is young, I understand 12 is pre-teen, I understand that 12 is still a baby, and so on. But a lot of these 12 year olds are just as street smart and street savvy as their 21 year old counterparts, and they have the mouth and the attitude to back it up. Police Officers have a very jaded view of these kids, unfortunately that's just the way it is. When you have 12 year olds on a daily basis telling uniformed police officers to "F*ck off", literally, and try to tell you what you can and can't do to them, you become jaded and conditioned to expect that kind of a response. The youth are some of the most challenging to deal with, because we all know when you're young you think you're invincible, untouchable, you know everything, and so on. But I know growing up, despite how invincible I thought I was, I still had a respect for the police. The only figures these troubled kids respect are the drug dealers and rappers on TV. Unfortunately, until we can convince these rappers and drug dealers to teach kids manners, respect, etiquette, and the differences between right and wrong, you can be as "feel good" as you want to be with these kids, and they are merely going to see it as a sign of weakness and exploit it. Like I said, at 12 years old a lot of these kids can be extremely manipulative, and they will take advantage of you any chance they get. When a police officer walks down the street and a little kid waves, and you have their parental figure grabbing these kids and yelling, "Don't wave to the police, they're not your friend", these kids are conditioned not to respect or trust any type of authority. When these kids see their parents, or parent in a lot of cases, acting like an animal, they are taught to believe that type of behavior is acceptable. When these kids see the drug dealers on the corner flashing money, driving nice cars, and mouthing off to the police and pretty much getting away with it, they are conditioned to accept and favor that type of lifestyle. Until you can completely remove these kids from that environment, most will not change and will grow up emulating the drug dealers, gangbangers, and will possess the same poor parental skills as their own parents, which then just gets passed on down to the next generation. Some of these kids are good kids who just get wrapped up in the wrong crowd, and still have a conscience, a respect for elders and authority, and a good understanding of the difference between right and wrong. These are the diamonds in the rough so to speak in these group homes. I'm not saying all kids who grow up in urban environments grow up to be criminals, but the ones who do possess these criminal traits from extremely young ages, even as young as 12. So now law enforcement organizes Police Athletic Leagues, Explorer Programs, After School Programs, Community Outreach Programs, etc. to try to combat some of these problems. Do I think it should be our responsiblity? Eh, I honestly don't know. I think anytime you can improve police-community relations it's a win-win situation. If you can get one kid on the right track, then it's definitely is worth it. But for the average patrol cop, who may be answering 30 jobs a night, missing their meal break, and running from one job to the next, its simply not possible or feasible to change a kids life in the 10 minutes you interact with them. When you work the same area night after night, you start to know the players, and you start to know who the trouble kids are. I know personally I have tried to reach out to certain kids, invited them to stop by the precinct, offered them advice on how to change their lifestyle for the better, shown them alternatives to the "street life", informed them of programs that are available to help with job placement and education. You know how many took me up on my offers? ZERO. Not one. The simple fact is that these kids are surrounded in an environment full of negativity and negative influences, and every day they are conditioned to have no respect for authority, their parents, the school system, the court system, law enforcement, and so on. I think I've rambled on enough, but my point it, and you can ask any Police Officer working in an urban area, is that eventhough these kids are "only 12 years old", these kids have mentality and the street toughness of a 21 year old. They are a challenge and are street wise well beyond their years, and treating them like a typical 12 year old is really not going to get you far. Unfortuantely the tactics you would normally use in dealing with a "typical 12 year old" more then likely will not work with these kids.

I'll bite.... You are trying to compare a dedicated safety checkpoint on Route 9, a 2 or 4 lane divided roadway (depending on which stretch of route 9 you are travelling), in multiple jurisdictions where you are guaranteed to hit each individual checkpoint along your travels to the type of safety enforcement conducted on the Hudson River? A waterway that is in 3 miles wide at certain parts being travelled by boating traffic in various directions across that 3 mile span where each jurisdiction has 1 vessel to cover their primary area of waterway response? Not to mention that these PD Marine Units are not only conducting safety boardings, but also Maritime Law Enforcement and handling calls for service (stalled boats, water rescues, etc.). If the PD Marine Units were forcing each boat to pass through a dedicated channel of the Hudson River Waterway to be boarded for safety checkpoint purpsoses as recreational vessels passed through each jurisdiction, of course that would be silly. If you read my previous posts, I concurred that it probably is extremely annoying for recreational boaters who are stopped and/or boarded multiple times in a single day. I question how frequently that actually does occur, but I'm not denying that it probably does happen on occasion. As you drive your car from Yonkers to Peeskill, you are undergoing a safety check without being pulled over every time you pass a patrol car. That police officer is observing your car for speed, seatbelt use by the occupants, cell phone use by the driver, any mechanical deficiencies with your vehicle (working headlights, brake lights, etc.), along with a number of other things. Like I said, I am by no means knowledgeable in anyway on maritime law enforcement, so with the exception of ensuring the operator of a boat is not intoxicated and there are an adequate number of life vests on board for the number of persons on the vessel, I don't know what else PD Marine Units would be looking for during their safety checks. I don't know if there's any way for a PD Marine Unit to mimic the non-interactive safety checks they do on land to passing vehicles and apply that to maritime safety checks. I'm guessing the only way to do these safety checks is to interact with the people on board a vessel, but I could absolutely be wrong. Considering the fact that waterborne rescues/operations are more dangerous for responders and can be more challenging in terms of scene access, I don't necessarily disagree with increased PD presence as a preventative measure. Preventing incidents from occurring through ensuring recreational boaters are abiding by appropriate safety measures, as well as enforcing maritime law not only keeps recreational boaters safe, but it increases responder safety as well by preventing responders from having to... well, respond. Also if you read my previous post, I concurred that there should be more coordination between the different agencies patrolling the river to prevent each agency from stopping the same boat multiple times in a short period of time, I merely questioned the logitistics of how one would be able to ensure that such a program would be efficient.

Actually in NYC disabled vessels will typically come over as Water Rescues, and usually initiates the response of FDNY, precinct personnel, ESU, Harbor, SCUBA, and Aviation. I guess once it is determined that the vessel is not in distress do the resources stand down and/or go back into service.

I do not want to post misinformation, but I believe that there is talk of Croton joining the actual tax district. I believe that the 1 EMT that's starting in Croton on Monday is a temporary fix until further options can be explored about a more permanent solution to the problems Croton is experiencing with their EMS system. I would assume that placing 1 EMT in Croton will be a starting point to see exactly what resources Croton needs to function efficiently as an EMS system. I'm guessing the system will be monitored over a period of time and the politicians and EMS community will make any revisions needed down the road when they finalize their system with whatever manpower and resources they require.

It's not the new name for OVAC. Mid-Hudson is the legal name for the tax district created for the residents of the Ossining school district. The district currently contracts with OVAC to provide EMS coverage.

I don't need to start a thread about that, that thread has been visited on here a dozen times and is a pointless one to start because it will not go anywhere. Feelings hurt? Far from it my friend as it takes a lot more to hurt my feelings. I personally can care less whether or not Hudson River patrols go from 20 police boats to 1. I'm merely playing devils advocate, and you were the one who got all up in arms because I compared the redundancy on the Hudson River to the redundancy in the Fire Service in Westchester County. The point I was making was that the redudancy on the River exists for some of the same reasons there is redundancy in the Fire Service. Why does every PD need to be out there doing these checks? How about a link to the Poughkeepsie Journal article about the alcohol involved boat accident in Tivoli that killed 4 people? Putting 2 marine units in the water to cover an area of the Hudson River from the New York City line up to the Putnam County line, IMHO, is stretching the marine resources too thin. Why does every PD need to get involved? Perhaps because the County PD doesn't have the manpower and/or equipment to staff more then what they already have, I don't know as I do not work for them and am not intimately familiar with the money they have budgeted and allocated for their marine unit. Or maybe it's simply because every PD along the River wants "their piece of the pie". What I do know is that every summer we read about the various marine units, FD and PD alike, carrying out legitimate rescues on the Hudson, and that right there is what makes the strong presence on the River worth it to me. I know if I were bobbing in the middle of the River, I'd rather have 3 boats from neighboring jurisdictions coming to pluck me out rather then wait for 1 coming from miles away. How would I fix it? I don't know, I guess that depends if a problem truly exists? Better coordination between all of the agencies that patrol the River is a great idea, and how much coordination there is now I truly don't know. A central database for all boats stopped? Eh, not quite sure how that would work or if it's feasible to do so. Just because a boat is stopped at 8am doesn't mean that the individual operating the boat is in the same "condition" (i.e. sober) at 2pm. Maybe the boat had enough life jackets for all the people on the boat at 8am, but now after picking up a few more passengers, now there isn't an appropriate amount of life jackets, which could be a problem if the boat starts taking on water? Is that line of thinking a little far-fetched? Yeah, I will agree that it is, but is it possible? Sure it is. But complacency can not just kill responders, it can kill the people we're supposed to protect as well. I honestly don't have the answers, I'm not a maritime expert, in fact I'm not even a maritime novice, so I'm not sure what is considered the appropriate amount of manpower to cover the Hudson River. All I do know is that the maritime environment is a different environment that has it's own challenges. Lastly, give me a break with the "harassment" comment. If I had a nickel for every time I heard someone cry "harassment" when a Police Officer is simply doing his/her job I'd be a millionaire. Better yet, how about Police Officers just sit back, drop their fishing lines in the water and maybe go for a little dip while they're out there so they're not "harassing" anyone? Maybe those damn Troopers should just park their car on the side of the parkways off in the bushes and take a nap so they're not "harassing" anyone? Maybe those plain-clothes anti-crime cops should just go to the movies or go out to dinner instead of aggressively trying to get guns off the streets so they're not "harassing" anyone? Whether you like it or not, aggressive enforcement, or I'll just call it "harassment" so you understand, is what prevents incidents like the Tivoli boating accident from occurring more frequently through deterring people from doing stupid things and enforcing the law when they get caught. Like it or not, people do stupid things and Law Enforcement are the ones who hold the responsibility to prevent such incidents from occurring.

1) County PD does have several boats, how many are on the water at a given time? How many police officers would you have to transfer to the Marine Unit to staff 2 boats? What if a boat is down for service/repairs? Would this result in a lack of coverage? I didn't say there should be a Mounted Unit in the River (although it would be comical to see horses with floaties), I was questioning how is the County going to justify transferring more officers to a specialized detail when they are cutting police officers from other details? I don't know anything about boating, but how long would it take a marine boat to respond to let's say the Tappan Zee Bridge from the further ends of the Hudson (Yonkers or the Bear Mountain Bridge)? 2) Most maritime units in local jurisdictions require their police officers to undergo some form of training regarding maritime law enforcement. I can't speak for every agency that staffs a police boat, but the agencies that I am somewhat familiar with don't just throw any police officer on overtime out on the River for the day. 3) Correct, specialized services shouldn't always be repeated, so why do we have 3 Technical Rescue Teams (that I know of) in Westchester County? Why does one town need 3 or 4 Rescues instead of consolidating? 4) I fully understand a fire alarm may be a legit emergency. When a 3rd party call comes over for a boat in distress, it could be some moron who ran out of gas, or it could be a boat taking on water. Many times the dispatch information regarding maritime emergencies is extremely vague. Boat type/size, number of souls on board, location, water/weather conditions can influence a response from maritime units. 5) Minor motor vehicle accidents really aren't emergencies, but still illicit a full response of engines, ladders, rescues, chiefs cars, ambulances, and paramedic fly cars. It's okay on dry land but not appropriate for the water? I do agree with a lot of your points, and would like to see specialized services merged, and I'm sure it is frustrating and annoying for recreational boaters who get stopped numerous times while trying to enjoy a nice day out on the Hudson, but the way Police agencies handle their patrols of the Hudson River in terms of redundancy and duplication of resources is just the norm for the area. Do I agree with it? No, I don't. Why is it that way? I'm going to assume because of the same reasons every FD in Westchester County has to have their own "toys" instead of combining and sharing resources.

I'm merely playing Devils Advocate here, but... 1) The Hudson River is a large body of water, but how do you propose that WCPD cover the Hudson River from Yonkers to the Putnam County line? How many police officers from the WCPD do you propose the County dedicate to Hudson River patrol when the County is cutting police officers from details (i.e. disbanding the Mounted Unit)? How many boats would the County have to purchase to adequately cover the Hudson River waterway? Should the County have to pick up the tab to patrol the Hudson River? 2) Why would the County or State Police know more about maritime law enforcement then local law enforcement? Is it because of the stigma associated with a "County" or "State" law enforcement agency that makes them better educated and/or prepared to handle certain aspects of law enforcement? That's like saying that a city patrol officer is more knowledgeable then a Police Officer from a local agency. True that city officers might handle considerably more calls for service, and a city patrol officer may have more clinical street experience, but unlike city patrol officers, many local law enforcement patrol officers carry out their own follow-up investigations and build their own criminal cases without referring every case to a detective squad, giving some local police officers more investigative experience. 2) I don't understand why an Automatic Fire Alarm requires the response of 3 Engines, a Ladder, a Rescue, 3 Chiefs Cars, and 12 POV's? I would assume the same reason why an emergency call on the Hudson invokes a response from several agencies.

Ahhhh, you don't get it. The way you type from a phone, from a computer, in a letter, in an email, or address someone in person has a lot to do with it. It's about presenting yourself to your "fellow professionals" as a professional, not presenting yourself to your "fellow professionals" as if you were text messaging your prom date. I understand it is frustrating, but not only are the "older guys" entitled to their opinions, but they have earned that right by "coming up through the ranks" and proving themselves to their professional counterparts. Don't use the word bash, because they all make excellent points which are very far from bashing. I don't think anyone is picking on the "younger crowd", and even if everyone on this board disagreed with young drivers, so what? Is it worth getting that frustrated over? You're already certified by your agency to drive, so why get all bent out of shape? Just keep doing what you're doing. I don't blame them for saying that young people shouldn't drive. If you look at the factual data regarding age groups and motor vehicle accidents in general, the facts don't lie. And now you are taking an individual with 2 or 3 years of driving experience and giving them the keys to a million dollar truck that is considerably larger than most vehicles sharing the roadway. When you have 15 or 20 years of driving experience under your belt, you'll probably become one of those "older guys picking on the young guys". I'm 32 years old and I'm not qualified to drive one of the trucks at work. I'm not offended by that, and when my co-workers feel I'm ready, then I'll get quailfied. But I have to earn their respect and trust first, the same way they earned it from the senior men when they were new.

I don't mean any disrepsect whatsoever, but if you want to be taken seriously when addressing older members of this forum, as well as convincing them to consider your competency, qualifications, and abilities, stay away from using phrases like "wat", "gunna", "ur", or "u". It shows your age, and unfortunately will keep anyone from taking you seriously. On a second note, I don't think that anyone will argue that with age comes experience, and with experience comes ability and knowledge. I think every one of us at a young age thought that we were ready for anything; it's only as you get older, a little more experienced, and a little wiser does your attitude change about the "younger crowd", whether it be at work or in your personal life.. I know growing up, I used to cringe every time my parents would say to me, "One day you'll understand", and as depressing as it may be, now that I'm older, I do understand.

It's still a conversation because people want to express their own opinions, which I thought was the whole point of a discussion board... to discuss things.

No hard feelings, I definitely didn't pick up on the sarcasm, hence my response. Hopefully with this new "partnership" things will improve with coordination between the 2 agencies, increased opportunities for training, and a more efficient EMS system in Croton.

You know, I'm pretty annoyed by this one-line pot stirring comment. Like I said before, if you don't like it, then get your ambulances out the door and don't depend on outside people to do it for you. OVAC may not be the pinnacle of EMS in your eyes, and that's fine because everyone is entitled to their opinion. But to made such a childish remark which basically insults every single person who is employed by or volunteers for OVAC is unfair, unprofessional, and in poor taste coming from an individual who is in a position of leadership and is supposed to set a good example of professionalism and leadership. OVAC has some highly respected, experienced, and competent providers who day in and day out not only provide excellent prehospital emergency medical care, but do so with little to no necessary supervision, and I think I speak for every single one of them when I express my disgust with your comment. To lump us all together in a public forum and make all of us sound like a bunch if morons is unfair and in poor taste for someone who should be setting a better example.

Get your ambulances out the door and you wouldn't have to worry about "more OVAC people".

Mid-Hudson EMS District is the official legal name for the Ossining EMS tax district.

They're not going mutual aid because they can't get their ambulances out the door, they're going mutual aid because of the call volume that overwhelms the EMS system. You can't fault an agency, who recognized the need for paid staff and took the appropriate steps to staff their ambulances, when the number of calls is greater then the number of ambulances they have available to handle their call volume. That's why we have mutual aid agreements, to assist other agencies when their call volumes exceed their available resources. Just a thought, but maybe Briarcliff is going to Ossining a lot for mutual aid because other surrounding agencies are abusing the mutual aid agreement by having OVAC cover the overwhelming majority of their EMS calls simply because they can't staff their own ambulances, making OVAC unavailable for the calls in their own district.

Just google PVC Pipe Cable Saw

As long as you follow the basic principles you mentioned, utilizing an AED on a boat is no different then using it anywhere else. A lot of private dive operations equip their dive vessels with AED's.

The article link was very vague, but that's all it sounds like, a tragic accident. Based on the limited information in the article, I'm honestly suprised this incident even resulted in criminal charges.

Overheard the guys today talking about him. Everyone said he was a total gentleman and it would be impossible to compare any other Captain to him, that's how great of a boss he was to his guys.

Briarcliff saving OVAC's butt? Please, go into details. Um, if OVAC doesnt run the fly car, then who does? Yes, the fly car does operate under a separate agency code (Tri-Community ALS), but is lettered Ossining VAC, turns out of OVAC HQ, scheduling is done by OVAC, medications/narcs are handled by OVAC, equipment is supplied by OVAC, OVAC Line Officers/Chief oversee the daily operations of the Fly Car, the medics are hired by OVAC.... So, once again who runs the fly car? I'm not sure who you think you are threatening people on this board, threatening to "talk to your chief about you", threatening someone who was simply proud to be a life member of an agency, but if you have a problem with OVAC, it's operations, or the way they conduct EMS, there are proper avenues to address your concerns. if you would like to start airing out each agency's dirty laundry out here in a public forum, we can do that, just be careful what you wish for.

I don want to single anyone out, but why are particular members posting incomplete IA's, without even knowing the incident location? And then asking other members to PM them with the necessary info to complete the IA? How about waiting until you have all the info, or at a minimum the incident location, and then posting it so no one wastes their time reading an incomplete IA.