fireguy43

Side mounts are what I grew up on, always thought it was better to be at street level to do all the things a pump operator does. But, transferred to a different department seven years ago with top mounts. Have to admit, the ability to see a 360 of the fire scene around my vehicle does have its advantages. Just a pain to keep climbing up and down all the time.

thank you Chris..... I asked during a post on the Croton Falls fire about two weeks ago. Now I have something to work with- once I read all of it!

I agree with you Jack. My point is that the discussion should include factual information, not inferences from IA threads where, no offense to anyone on here, the information may not be 100% accurate. The Banksville situation is the classic example. A whole line of questioning about response time and when the tanker got out vs when Mutual Aid was called, etc.. A subsequent post, who said that they got the dispatch information directly from the Banksville Chief, had vastly different times for the same incident when compared to the IA. I'm not criticizing the IA writer at all, I am criticizing the rush to judgement based on incorrect information. It is fair game to ask the tough questions, but formulate the questions based on fact, that's all. I'm not sure that there is a whole lot of fact checking going on before the questions start.

As I have indicated on here in other threads, I do not live in Westchester and am not affiliated with any of the agencies which have had the misfortune of experiencing a structure fire in the past few months that were the topic of IA's, nor do I have any acquaintances in any of these departments. I am as far removed from these incidents as can be, so it doesn't "hit close to home" for me or make me feel uncomfortable (according to Mapquest, the Banksville firehouse, for instance, is 50 miles away). I am also not trying to "brush this problem under the rug". There may well be a response issue in Westchester, there may well be a need for consolidation and regionalization. I don't know. I asked in a post a week or so ago to cite any publicly available information from any source in the way of a study or position paper that addressed the issue so that we could all be better informed. Never heard a word in reply. Does one exist? Does anyone at the County level agree that there is a problem? Has the County Executive or any public official (town, city or otherwise)made any comments or taken any action to at least identify the issue? I don't know, give us some real information instead of insinuation, conjecture and speculation based on unreliable information in an internet posting forum. Please, chief, understand the difference between the "issue", and the methodology with which one pursues that issue. There may be a valid point in terms of staffing and response times, but that issue and the pursuit of a solution is diminished when the pursuit is based on conjecture and less than factual information. If you have facts, then fine, share them with us. If you don't, then get some. You must have access to some form of records, as dispatch records must be public information available with a FOIL request. Get the dispatch records for the last month. Stucture fires in Banksville, Croton Falls, Somers, and Mohegan Lake come to mind. Wouldn't be a lot of work to get information on 6-8 incidents. Put some facts together in an organized, analytic way that proves your position. Do that, demonstrate the problem that you say exists based on IA's from anyone with a computer, and I'll be a believer. Until then, it's all conjecture, rumor and hearsay. One last point, which I'll put in a separate paragraph in case Seth and the boys feel the need to edit it out. Read your last paragraph. "...you are easily upset...", "...you very uncomfortable...", "You are blaming..." and "...puts you in a small minority". Let' keep the discussion about the issue, and not a personal attack the minute someone disagrees with you.

Just so we're clear..... read my entire sentence. "Who knows who's right, and who cares?". As in, "who cares who's right?", not "who cares about response times". Honestly, it's great to engage in honest discourse over the topics of the day, including response times and staffing levels, but let's stop the nit-picking over what time each piece of equipment got out unless you have reliable information. There is an awful lot of hearsay and misinformation that ends up being the topic of a two or three page thread on here. My point is that two people come forward with information from the same incident with dramatically different response times, not seconds apart, but minutes. Check the thread, how do you account for an 8 minute difference in what two people heard? And since there is such a discrepancy, how do you sit at a distance and feel qualified to opine on what should have been done with incomplete and imperfect information? Yes, seconds count, and yes, we should all strive to provide the highest level of service, at the safest, most efficient speed that conditions allow. What doesn't count is an endless barrage of criticism over every single incident. Don't worry about my feelings Chief, I don't "TIP", just tired of the same old harangue every time there is a structure fire IA.

So there you go boys and girls,enough holes in the times to drive a tanker through. Did Banksville's tanker respond at 16:19 or 16:27? What arrived on scene at 16:28, E157, E158, or both? Read through this thread and see how different the times are from one person to the next. Who knows who's right, and who cares? Once again, a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking and commentary by people who were not involved whatsoever, speculating and criticizing with incomplete, inaccurate information. I fail to see what is gained by all of this. My two cents.

I don't know Banksville either, but a couple of points- 1) Even if the tanker CAN be operated solo, it may be the department or the Chief's policy that it has two people on it. I drive a tanker all the time. I can and have gone to many structure fires with it by myself. I have been told that wherever possible, I should have a shotgun rider if for no other reason than to help back me up if I'm on a back road, or to watch intersections as I approach. I prefer someone else with me, but I'm not sitting on the apron waiting for them to get to the station. Perhaps in Banksville, there is an order against solo rides. 2) Depending on departmental policy, perhaps the tanker is the last one out on purpose. My department has a policy of engines first, tanker secondary. First driver to the house takes an engine, second driver takes an engine, third driver takes the tanker. 3) Don't read too much into the fact that a mutual aid tanker was requested before Banksville's responded. It may be indicative of the Chief not thinking it would get out, but it is also possible that during size up, he realized that he had enough fire to require a tanker shuttle as opposed to just using what water he had on wheels.I hear it all the time where M/A tankers are requested before all of the initial response is out the door.

Here's a good one I found just wandering around. In 1960, ALF developed a design to link a 900 series vehicle with a 324 HP Boeing gas turbine engine. First one was an engine sold to San Francisco, followed by a 100 ft tractor drawn ladder to Seattle, Wa. (1961), and another engine that found it's way to Mt. Vernon, Va.. Note the large exhaust mounted over the engine compartment. None of them lasted long before they were apparently quietly returned to Elmira to be repowered with more conventional power plants (Seattle lasted about a year before being sent back). Why repower? The obvious....1) Noise, 2)Excessive brake wear, and, at least in the case of Mt. Vernon, the unusual exhaust stack that pointed up behind the cab blew flames against the firehouse ceiling every time they cranked the thing up! Here's some pics:

the first two pictures were taken at Boeing Field in Seattle, the main Boeing manufacturing site runway. Can you imagine cranking that thing up at one end of the runway and letting it loose? Tillerman's cheeks were probably flapping from the wind!

Thanks Chief- one more question- My latin is a little rusty- "Omnus Cedo Domus"- Latin for "take the hydrant" right?

Wait a minute. A little clarification Chief- for purposes of the 2 in-2 out rule, I think what you are saying is that the pump operator cannot count toward the total, correct? I know it's splitting hairs, but then has it also been interpreted that the pump operator is not to leave the pump panel for other duties either, even if they are exterior to the fire structure? Not trying to trap you with the law, just legitimately interested in exactly how the law is interpreted in practice. Thanks.

Hmmm...... some would say that there is a correlation. Damn that OSHA, took all the fun out of it!

The good old days in the sense that you could ride the running boards, or in the sense that 10 guys showed up for a call?

Close, but no cigar. George Cable helped initiate BVAC in the late 1950's. The most recent "Cable" that was the Chief of Glenham was Jeff a few years ago. Jeff also has something to do with Safety at Green Haven Prison. Before him, his father Dennis was also a Chief of Glenham back in the 1980's (?). I believe George may have been Dennis's father or uncle. I know, "TMI"

Excellent point.... why throw away 60+ years of goodwill in the name? You'd be answering questions from old time residents for years.

No jump seats on any of the versions? Guys had to ride the running boards?

Well done, Tommy boy.... you're in the running for EMTBravo historian. For the record, Joe Catalano was an eventual Chief of Department in Beacon. I'm not as sure what rank George Cable achieved. In any event, there is a close tie between BVAC and the fire service. Kudos to them for establishing ALS service. Tommy- where ya been? Had to make a midnight tanker run the other night, waited for you......

Dan- You're forgiven since you live and play on the other end of the county and wouldn't be familiar with BVAC. They were originally formed (Beacon guys, help me out here if I'm wrong)with the help of Beacon Engine Co. #1 (33-11). "Beacon Engine" as the locals call them, donated the land across from BFD station #1 for BVAC's first quarters. Although separate, they enjoyed a close relationship with the BFD over the years, and many of the BVAC members are also members of either BFD or other neighboring departments. Having seen them in operation in their heyday of the 1960's and '70's, and also in the lean years that followed for a while, I am glad that they have been able to make this giant step. I personally don't care what's on the door of the rig, as long as when the door opens, there are qualified people stepping out of it. I drive an ambulance, it says "100% volunteer" on the side, and if I ever see BVAC at Saints, Vassar, or driving up Route 9, I won't be insulted at all.

Not trying to steal this thread, but the JOX ALF is intriguing..... kind of an ugly design, but it is different. Here's a couple of pictures from the Arlington County, Virginia, web site.

Add two more bays and push the second floor back some, and it would look like the City of Middletown (NY, Orange County) central station. Wonder if there were specialty architects back then who did nothing but firehouses.....

Thanks "Iz".... did some research of my own today. Grew up in a department that had nothing but ALF's for years, but never saw one of these.... according to some of the websites I checked, only about 110 of these were ever built in Elmira, and a modest few were built at a plant in the Toronto area. US Gov't sent a few to Austrailia and New Zealand in the late '30's and early '40's before entering the war under a program to supply the Allies. There is apparently some disagreement over what JOX means, J standing for the cab forward design, O for open cab, but the X is defined in different places as for eXposed ladder storage or eXperimental design. Neat looking truck, especially with the rear fender skirts.

HUH? BVAC has a long history and favorable reputation in the City of Beacon going back to, I believe, the 1950's. It was always a volunteer organization and generations of Beacon families (the Arquilla's, the Dinan's, etc) served and continue to serve. They hire one medic and all of a sudden they're insulting volunteer agencies????? C'mon, that's out of line and ridiculous.

Never heard of JOX, any more details?

Chief- A few points. I'm not here to knock you or the Yonkers FD. I didn't even know that that was your affiliation until today. I don't know any active members of YFD, nor do I know anyone affiliated with either Somers or Croton Falls. You have a right to your opinions and beliefs, and a right to express them just like I do. No problem there. You can even have an "agenda" or a point of view that you want to reinforce when the opportunity presents itself, that too is okay with me. Where we differ is that I would advance my "agenda" or point of view when I have the facts to support my case. What I have seen on a couple of occasions, most recently with the Croton Falls IA, is that you are jumping to conclusions which you believe support your case without a complete set of facts. Any IA, written by anyone on here, is subject to the faults (memory, hearing, ability to type fast enough, etc) of the writer. In the course of a long list of radio transmissions, the writer in this case did not note the specific dispatch of the Somers Ladder. When, further down in the alert, there is a notation that the truck was responding shortly, or whatever the notation, you automatically began looking for the reason why they took so long to get out, and immediately began a line of questions that clearly indicated that you thought that. You obviously are very passionate on this issue, all I'm saying is give it a rest once in a while and don't assume that in every IA, there is a delayed response or inadequate manpower situation based on a snippet of a radio transmission taken out of context. Perhaps you are right on target with your thoughts on regionalization in Westchester. I don't know, I don't live there, and I don't know all of the details of the issue. Be happy to read anything you have in the way of a position paper or other documentation, if you care to provide me with a notation of some online source that I can go to to read it. As to my opportunity to criticize the YFD, I am not qualified. I'm sure that the members of YFD do a great job. Your promise not to cry when my opportunity arises to criticize your department is lost on me, it'll never happen. Stay safe.....