dwcfireman

Over the years I watched and read about both Fire and EMS departments merging or consolidation and come to the understanding that this rarely saves money (at least in the short term<10 yrs) and only functions well when it's well received by the "employees". It's easier where the employees are FT paid staff, as the details tend to get worked out. Volunteer organizations have a harder time unless they all want it. I'd think for any mainly volunteer or paid call departments a period of shared training and cooperative buying, along with standardization would set a more stable foundation. 
 
We have both fire and EMS departments "failing" around our area, and generally speaking the taxpayers are not given the whole story. Too often the EMS or Fire Chief and personnel are less forthcoming about their shortfalls with the public, as it seems to admit failure rather than a sign that times have changed and the between run volumes, call types and mandated training requirements have placed a significant burden on the all volunteer/paid call systems.

I forgot about this topic as well... over 2 years ago.
 
Here is an opinion about your question of why EMS would be more open to consolidating and not fire. I may not have this right but here is my understanding.
 
Ambulance services are allowed to bill for their services and collect Medicaid & Medicare payments as well as from private insurance companies. So there is money to be saved if you can consolidate the number of rigs in service and the amount of manpower on-duty. Example: Towns A,B,C,D each have their own ambulance service. Each town maintains 3 ambulances. Each town has 2 on-duty members with 2 back-up members for a 2nd ambulance call. If the personnel are paid, including the back-up crews when activated, it can increase your costs. Plus maintaining 3 ambulances both mechanically and outfitted with gear can be expensive.  If you consolidated those 4 town ambulance services into 1, then perhaps you maintain only 8 ambulances (4 on-duty & 4 back-up). When a 2nd call or 3rd call came in, another on-duty ambulance would take it and hence not have to pay off-duty members to respond. If it's an MCI, then of course you'd put all 8 ambulances on the road and call in off-duty members.
 
Fire departments don't charge for their services and can be a burden to a community's budget. It sounds good on paper to consolidate, but then you may have to spread out personnel to cover all the stations. Maybe Town A & B have 6 per shift, Town C has 3 per shift, & Town D has 1 per shift. Now, if all the towns are going to share the tax burden through a fire district you'd have to figure that people will want a certain level of coverage throughout. Perhaps the solution would be to spread out the 16 personnel equally to 4 per station. This would then necessitate a shift-commander for the newly created fire district. That isn't a bad thing, but if it's a combination career/volunteer department the remaining volunteers may lose interest as the responses are changed and the career staff ends up handling the majority of the calls by sending a piece from two stations (1 engine each) to a vehicle fire. The same with automatic alarms. Soon the volunteers would dwindle to the point of being an ineffective back-up force and the district needs to increase the on-duty staff (hire) to handle the call volume.  
 
There is something to be said for self-government where voters keep control of their own destiny.  Conversely, to not be open to sharing equipment and responses doesn't help anyone. In the end there are many issues to be considered. 

So, I forgot I started this thread so many moons ago, and I seem to have failed to keep it updated.  Well, it popped into my head today while talking about another possible consolidation (with EMS agencies).  I apologize in advance for the long post.
 
The updates out of Victor, NY as as follows: On March 20, 2018 the Board of Fire Commissioners of the Fishers Fire District voted against consolidation.  One of the main reasons was that it move two of the career firefighters to the Victor fire house and could potentially effect response times to the busier Fishers area.
 
The Victor Fire Department, which is a department under the Village of Victor, convinced the Village Board in June 2018 to pursue separation from the village and becoming a fire district.  This would pave the way for the VFD to hire, at the least, part time paid firefighters to supplement its volunteers.  I don't have any further updates on this, unfortunately, as the process to create the fire district takes approximately two years, and there doesn't seem to be any other news on this subject.
 
BUT, what is happening, and it's big new in the EMS world up here in Rochester, is the continued growth of CHS Mobile Integrated Healthcare.  Originally operating as Henrietta Ambulance, they merged with Chili Ambulance and contracted with the Scottsville Fire Department, all within Monroe County, to become CHS.  About two years ago they expanded once again to cover Caledonia (Livingston County) and the Mumford Fire District (Monroe County).  And, just yesterday, they announced the approval from Greece Volunteer Ambulance (northwest of Rochester) to merge into the CHS system.  Now, this is going on at the same time that Livingston County EMS, located south of Rochester, is growing rapidly and now covering the majority of the county for both BLS and ALS.  Both CHS's and LCEMS's expansion is primarily in response to the closing of volunteer EMS agencies or in savior of closing other EMS agencies.  At any rate, both expanding systems seem to be eluding to a common theme; County Based EMS Systems.  Albeit, CHS is a not-for-profit company, they still continue down the road to creating a county-wide system.
 
I bring up these upstate EMS mergers namely to state that consolidation is happening, and at a rate that will continue to increase.  It seems to be working fairly well with EMS.  Yes, they still have their shortfalls, especially when it comes to staffing, but there is nothing to say that these agencies are going to fail.  So, why is it (consolidation) working so well with EMS but is so feigned when we talk about it at the fire department level?  I mentioned before that it was successful with the North East Joint Fire District in Webster, NY, and I can name another local example with the Hamlin Morton Walker Fire District whose consolidation occurred in 2013 (Western Monroe County).  Why aren't fire departments talking about the "C word" more?  Why aren't we talking about it more?  If fire departments are being requested to do more with less, wouldn't consolidation at least be an option or worth looking into?  There is solid proof that consolidation can be a good thing and have a positive outcome for the emergency services in our communities.  I'm glad that both the Victor and Fishers fire departments at least looked into it.  I may be disappointed about the outcome, but at least there was a motion of well intent.

 
I know the masses here on EMTBravo love to talk about consolidation, and since I stumbled upon this while reading the news, I figured it could be a fun discussion where consolidation IS moving forward.  So, I'll start us off with some facts and information about the districts.
 
The Village and Town of Victor are located in Ontario County, in the Finger Lakes Region of New York, about a 20 minute drive southeast from downtown Rochester.
 
This article states that on March 20, the joint session of the Village and Town Boards of Victor voted to bring the issue of consolidating the two fire districts, Victor and Fishers, into a single fire district.  Since the two districts are already relying on each other for manpower and equipment, to the point where they purchase equipment together (such as their ATV's), the joint boards have put though the idea to consolidate the districts.  The other reason, in which the article points to, is that a single district would also level out the taxes that property owners are paying (where taxpayers in the Fishers district would see a slight decrease, and Victor would see a slight increase).  Leveling out the tax levy, according to Victor Fire Chief Sean McAdoo, puts more tax burden back onto the taxpayers of the Victor district, as they are currently receiving more services under the current mutual aid and equipment purchasing plans.
 
The Victor Fire Department is based in the heart of the Village of Victor.  The village is tight on space, houses the Victor Central School District, and is heavily congested with traffic along Main Street.  VFD also covers the Victor Fire Protection District, which surrounds the village in the south and west sides of the town.  These areas are generally residential, with multiple subdivisions in the west and some agriculture in the south.  VFD operates with a quint, engine, heavy rescue, brush truck, and two utilities.  The VFD is 100% volunteer staffing.  [http://victorfire.com]
 
The Fishers Fire Department operates out of two stations, covering the north and west sections of the Town of Victor.  Station 1 is in the west side, comprised of mostly residential, some industrial, and agriculture towards the southern end of the district.  Station 1 is also their headquarters, which houses a quint, engine, and heavy rescue.  Station 2 is at the north end, which is a heavy commercial/retail district, including Eastview Mall, the largest shopping center in the Rochester area.  Station 2 houses an engine, brush truck, and two utilities.  The FFD is a combination department with four career firefighters per platoon (four platoons), but relies heavily on volunteers.  I don't know off hand which apparatus they staff, but I believe it is the engine out of Station 1.  I have not talked to anyone within that organization in years, so my knowledge of the career staffing is a little lacking.  The FFD also covers a large section of the NYS Thruway.  [http://www.fishersfd.org]
 
In my honest opinion, the fact that these two districts have already been working together as a single unit through training, response, and equipment purchasing, it makes sense for them to consolidate into a single district.  Although only one of the district's taxpayers would benefit financially, it's better for these two districts to completely join forces to increase the benefit of emergency services to the people they protect.  This has been foreseen by many in the area, and the fact that it may actually become a reality is enlightening.
 
Maybe a trend will start out of this?

Buffal Airport is putting specs together for a quint to replace a 2004 International/ALF engine and a 2004 International rescue.

 Rescue 40 Port Chester Fire 2019 Pierce  Arrow XT   leaving  factory for New York . 

I volunteered with one department that allowed mutual aid members.  To begin, all of those members had to meet the requirements for regular membership, as in they had to work within the district 40 hours per week, and meet the required percentages for training and emergency responses.  They could attend company meetings, but they couldn't vote on certain topics or in certain elections.  The mutual aid members, if I recall correctly, were not required to help with fundraising activities, but they were encouraged to help out.
 
This was set up essentially to gain a few extra members during the daytime, when turnout is generally low during the work week.  The down side was that these members weren't always capable of leaving their jobs to respond to a call, which defeated the purpose.  But we did gain a few good members out of the program, and one of the mutual aid members was even allowed to become an EMS lieutenant (I don't recall what bylaw changes were made to allow that).
 
All in all, if your department is going to build such a program that allows firefighters from other departments to ride as mutual aid/assistance members, make sure you research the laws and statutes that pertain to fire department membership.  It's illegal in NYS to be an active volunteer firefighter with two different departments, and the mutual aid membership is a grey area: Are they a member of two departments?  Or are they simply riding on another department's apparatus?  Get your department's legal counsel involved in the research and planning phases to ensure your T's are crossed and I's are dotted before accepting mutual aid members, that is if you r able to launch such a program.  Talk to departments that have these programs, including the bunk-in programs for college students and young firefighters.  Hawthorne and Purchase come to my mind as departments to reach out to.
 
IMHO, the bunk-in programs for college students and young firefighters, which can involve mutual aid members, is a great way to gain and retain young membership and get them involved in a rewarding career, whether they remain a volunteer or advance later into a paid position.  This would be a great route to take if you're looking to fill some seats with dedicated personnel.

 
The reason explained to me many moons ago was to prevent the double collection of workman's compensation and/or disability in the event of a line of duty injury or death.

I have mixed feelings on dual membership. My old department had a specific rule against it but that rule was NEVER enforced, including on some high profile veteran members. My current department has no such rule and in many ways encourages dual membership. That being said, if a member can manage to meet attendance and training requirements for two departments then more power too them. I know this can be hard, especially if drill schedules conflict. I have found neighboring departments willing to work together.
 
I had a member who was going to be listed as exterior by another town because she had not met their training requirements. I wrote her a letter listing her drill attendance to their training officer, even offered him copies of drill reports, he accepted the letter and restored her interior status. I have personally seen more people not be able to handle meeting these requirements than those who have. 
 
One local chief is against letting dual members vote, because he does not want members of other departments voting on who is chief in his own department., While I think that is mostly self serving, I kind of see his point. I also don't like neighboring departments using dual members to pad out their rosters, as each member can only be in one place at one time. 
 
As for legal and insurance issues, those may be defined in statutes. Workers Compensation is usually required for all members, these laws are probably silent on dual members. Here in CT we also have a law that allows an individual to volunteer anywhere statewide as long as approved by the chief/IC and they are covered by their home department (I don't have the exact wording on hand). Now that is a call by call based law that probably never envisioned someone responding to multiple calls in another district, but the intent is fairly clear. 

Had a light hearted debate the other day and figured I would spread it over here. I know we will likely not reach a consensus at all. Then again this is a largely meaningless topic for debate. 
 
On a standard job shirt with the embroidered logo on the chest, do you add patches to the sleeve or not? I went with no, but some others were telling me they do. 

I agree, NO

Concepts like this often don't gain the traction they should or could. This is because you can assemble the best personnel & equipment, get the best training, and tell people you are out there as a resource. However you can't make departments call you even if they get one of the relatively rare calls you planned for.

Sorry for the absence, but I finally decided to check back in on EMTB after too long....
 
Up here in Western NY a squad is generally a pickup chassis with some sort of utility body on it (think brush truck without a pump or hose, or a utility for those of you in Westchester).  Usually, these trucks are equipped with EMS, pump-out, and salvage equipment.  Most departments throw in a couple of SCBA and extra brush fire gear.  Some departments will throw on eDraulics or spare hydraulic tools.  And almost every department just throws a bunch of random crap on them when they can't find another or useful spot for it.  These "squads" come to be extremely useful for the mass of EMS runs and the BS calls that we don't want to burn an engine or ladder for.  They're also useful for when you need a few extra people on scene or need to get yourself a distance from the paved road.

Sorry for the absence, but I finally decided to check back in on EMTB after too long....
 
Up here in Western NY a squad is generally a pickup chassis with some sort of utility body on it (think brush truck without a pump or hose, or a utility for those of you in Westchester).  Usually, these trucks are equipped with EMS, pump-out, and salvage equipment.  Most departments throw in a couple of SCBA and extra brush fire gear.  Some departments will throw on eDraulics or spare hydraulic tools.  And almost every department just throws a bunch of random crap on them when they can't find another or useful spot for it.  These "squads" come to be extremely useful for the mass of EMS runs and the BS calls that we don't want to burn an engine or ladder for.  They're also useful for when you need a few extra people on scene or need to get yourself a distance from the paved road.

I would agree that the word squad may designate anything, anywhere. I would say that the word is the most commonly used word in the fire service with multiple, multiple definitions. 

In the early 1940's, FDNY had a couple of Squad companies. They were manpower units only. They reported to incidents and were utilized for whatever was needed. In the 1950's through the late 1960's FDNY Squad Companies were equipped with step vans. They carried basic truck company tools and were again utilized for whatever functions were needed. In the late 1960's, The squads were assigned pumpers and responded as engine companies. Eventually the Squads were disbanded. In 1977, Squad Company 1 was reestablished in the former quarters of Engine 269 which had been disbanded. They were assigned a pumper and also carried Truck Company Tools. They were used for whatever the Chief needed when they arrived at a fire scene. In 1990, Squad 41 was established in the former quarters of Engine 41 in the Bronx. They were assigned a pumper and they along with Squad 1 were part of Special Operations Command. in addition to engine company equipment, they carried truck company tools as well as Hurst Tools, Air Bags and some other rescue related gear. In the late 1990's Engine 18, 61, 252, 270 and 288 became Squad Companies and all squad personnel were trained to the Haz Mat and Rescue Technician level. All Squads were then assigned a second rig (step van) designated as Haz Mat Support Units.

A traditional fire service squad is a rescue pumper. 
 
Typically, a fully functional engine company with a tank, pump and full compliment of supply and attack line. In addition, a squad will be equipped with rescue tools, struts, cribbing, ropes/hardware, etc.
 
Essentially it's an engine that can be detailed as a 2nd rescue if needed.

After a lot of hard work by the Fairchester Hose Haulers the Valhalla dam is back after 38 years. Save this date for the greatest Antique fire truck show in the world. More details will follow in the near future. Stay tuned   

How.....How do some of the officers fit in there?  I'm 6' 4" and I complained about driving a Chevy Colorado.

a dealership? most likely resell for around 300k+. well thought out rig, too bad the decisions at pcfd haven't been as well thought out.

 
Yes, the PPE is going to collect far more carcinogens than any of our tools and SCBA ever will.  At least removing the SCBA from the passenger compartment is a start.  I think this is more of firefighter safety concern than it is a carcinogen concern, though.  Obviously, keeping firefighters seated and secured while the rig is in motion is good thing so that we can all make it to the scene safely.  Removing the action of trying to don the SCBA pack while the rig is moving reduces injury in the even of an accident (even if it is just the FF losing balance and falling out the seat during a hard turn).
 
Yes, proper gear cleaning will solve a lot of the issues of cleanliness, especially when it comes to firefighter health and safety.  Period.  You can't argue against that.  I just wish more firefighters would take better care of their gear and wash it on a regular basis.
 
Yes, the rig is going to be longer with this configuration.  Of course, a side mount pump panel helps reduce the overall length...BUT, the overall length and turning radius should be considered during the spec phase.  We're never going to be able to spec a truck to fit in every driveway in our districts, but we can at least consider most of them.  Heck, one of the trucks can be spec'ed for the tighter driveways, just so that there is something to make it to the front door!  

Isn't most of the weight of the SCBA supposed to sit on your hips instead? I doubt there is a weight or ergonomic difference between Scott and MSA>

I think we just watched a very tangible example of some of the insanity taking hold on the fire service.
 
This Chief is all too proud of his accomplishment here, but he should have taken a break from digesting every "trend" in the fire service before he spec'd his new machine.
 
SCBAs taken out of cab, nothing new.
 
Phoenix and several large Department in Southern California have done this for years. However, taking them out due to carcinogen concerns is a really weak case.
 
What does the Chief intend to do about the PPE worn by firefighters? Think that might be a sink for carcinogens? How bout the bottom of your boots, ever really think what is hanging out there?
 
I'd be a lot less concerned about a hard surface such as an SCBA bottle or harness that can be wiped down after each use, then the proper gear cleaning habits or hygiene of a pretty fluid and dynamic group of end-users of this rig.
 
Not to mention, the extra long cab to accommodate the new SCBA compartment and the top mount pump panel. He just built a rig that is probably running upwards of 36-38 feet overall length. Although it is Texas, I am sure the guy driving the truck will really appreciate the wheel base the next time he has to try and turn into the driveway and fit between the brick pillars of every Ewing estate look-alike. 
 
 

Well speced  Engine I love the Pierce walk around tours

nice truck but looks like a camel being a race horse.  i like the idea of keeping the scba's out of the back and the reasons why but they are still in the back with this design.  look a the video again especially at 2:43 seconds into it.  you will see that the scba compartment is open to the back of the truck so anything off gases from the packs will still be in the same compartment.  i like the idea and the reasons behind it but i don't get the way they did it.