dwcfireman

I always feel like a Monday morning QB when typing in these types of threads, even when I have no intention to. I think it's great to hear constructive criticisms (from those on scene) and other ideas (from everyone), because it might have affect another IC's decision at a later fire. And, YES, the masses are talking again!!!!!!

It might say that. I haven't read that AC in about 6 years haha (For those who are not familiar with FAA Advisory Circulars, they're just as dry and boring to read as NFPA's). I would figure that the PAPD ARFF rigs would have enough AFFF to mitigate the fuel spill long before FDNY arrives. Striker 1500's carry 210 gal of AFFF, and the 3000's carry 420 gal.

Hey, sometimes you have to think outside the box. Plus, I'm sure most of us would rather be critiqued for a different tactic than answer questions about an LODD. It's terrible to think that some people are stuck with the "200 years of tradition" attitude.

But what about this Chevy product? Photo courtesy of ls1tech.com

I understand FDNY's major role in the Port Authority's Emergency Response Plans, as it's extremely similar to HPN's. I love knowing that I'm going to have a water source and manpower coming in when my tank is just about empty and rescue efforts need to begin. It's just the foam part that's boggling me. Why does FDNY come in with the "wrong" type of foam (and I mean wrong as in something other than prescribed in the federal aviation regulations)?

I have an idea....bear with me here.... Department A responds to a 10-75 with three engines and a ladder, all staffed with 4 (including the drivers). The Chief strikes out a second alarm for manpower. Department B sends an engine and ladder with 3 each, and Department C only gets an engine out with 4. However, 12 firefighters are sitting in Dept A's HQ because there are no more rigs to roll. What if just ONE of these departments had a transport bus (with a compartment to secure tools and SCBA (or already equipped with said equipment)), and was used as a troop transport? Couldn't that bus go to Dept A and pick up those firefighters, bring them to the scene, then rotate around the area departments to bring in manpower? See, not every department would need a bus, just the same as not everyone having a mobile cascade unit. This is why we have mutual aid! If I have the MSU, a neighbor has a 12 passenger van, another has a light truck, and another has an LDH vehicle, through mutual aid we can share our resources. Now, if your scene is blocked in an no additional apparatus can get in anyway, why not have a department with a bus or van shuttle in more manpower? You could even use the bus/van to solely transport firefighters from a staging area to the scene. I really don't see why people are getting upset about any department responding with a bus. It's a usable resource.

So, why does FDNY come in and use flouroprotein foam when PAPD ARFF has more than plenty of the FAA FAR139 required AFFF?

Good question. I did not explain that. 1 fill site was an engine hooked to a hydrant in the village, the second was an engine drafting from a nearby river. I'd also like to add that this is a part of the state where 90% of the fires are in non-hydrant areas, so they're extremely used to tanker ops. It would make more sense to bring in units from further and space out the local resources, but considering the time of day and heat of the moment decisions I would only Monday morning quarterback the lack of extra coverage. However, the incident came out well and everything worked out.

I don't know the answer either, but I would prefer that FAST sticks around until after overhaul is complete. The structure is quite compromised at this point, and it's nice to have some extra people in place in case something does happen.

Sometimes a fire utilizing a tanker operation goes well and you make a good save. Sometimes you save the foundation. It's really hit or miss, just like any fire.

From what I can see on the apparatus plate assignment list, Westchester has 18 tankers (plus one from Round Hill, CT). As far as hydrants go, I have no idea how much of the county has hydrants vs. without hydrants. I tried looking for information, but a short google search turned up empty. I know I have been spoiled by always being in a district that's well hydranted, however I do know a great deal of the northern county area is hydrantless. Hopefully someone here has a bit more insight on that question.

First correction from my post, it was Caledonia, NY, not Avon (both in Livingston County). This was an 800x150x7 story grain storage building with dry fertilizer in the northern quarter of the building. 28 tankers (from 4 counties) fed from 2 fill sites, dumped to 3 quad-pond set ups, 3 engines drafting to 4 aerial waterways. Water supply was interupted once to bring in a deisel truck. This is what you dump 28 tankers for! Anyway, it goes back to practicing your tanker operations.If you train enough with it, just like any task on our job, it becomes second nature. And it never hurts to train with some of your further reaching neighbors either.

I know of a fire in Avon, NY (the CRC fire a few months ago) that used 28 tankers on 2 fill sites! It's amazing what you can do with tankers when you know what you're doing......practice, practice, practice!! [i'll look for the pics from that scene in the morning. I have no idea where I stored them]

http://middletownfireacademy.com/mtfdta/_documents/Misc_Forms/NIST_SCBA_FacePiece_Study.pdf I found this literature. Melting temperatures can vary widely depending on the type of polycarbonate, between 215 °C (419 °F) and 338 °C (640 °F) [2-3].

That's a very interesting question....I've thought about it myself. FDNY has plenty of extra units. Is it a WC vs. FDNY thing? Or is it a WC and nothing else kind of deal? Or is there some extenuating circumstance that FDNY only comes north of the border for certain calls?

Just looking at the pictures....just....wow! I didn't listen to much of the podcast (because I get distracted too easily), but just looking at the pictures and see what a beating our gear can take. I'm just in awe. Obviously when someone's life is on the line we take extraordinary measures to make the save, and it's absolutely amazing what conditions that we, as firefighters, can survive solely based on what our PPE can withstand.

I tried looking through all the METU related forums and what not, but I can't find what I'm looking for.... How much did the WCDES METU cost? Or what would a similar unit cost? I'm just curious as to how much a rig like this goes for.

I watched both videos...both were quite handsome to watch. First, I have to say I've never seen a roof plume up like that. It puts perspective on the fact that you don't know what happened prior to your arrival. That roof is definitely compromised, bu the FD won't know until a bystander says something. As for the second video.....where's the support to stop the garage door from closing? I can understand how you can approach an oped overhead door and believe that it will stay up, but there is no definitive reason for it to stay up. A little force from even blowing smoke/hot gasses can move a heavy object (especially when tat object has wheels on a pre-defined track). I'm sure a well placed 2x4 or even a pike pole would have prevented the closure. [bTW, don't take this comment as a Monday morning QB remark; I'm simply stating something obvious because it can and will save a life. I'd rather make it seem like a MMQB remark than attend a LODD funeral.]

Took my CDL road test in an 1988 Autocar. Beast of a truck! Courtesy of the Oshkosh website, this is what we're using at HPN for heavy snow removal. It's amazing how far the technology has come along, and this thing is a beast! And, yes, it's all wheel steering.

A good reminder to: A) Shovel off your roof Be mindful of the weight on the roof if you're conducting vertical ventilation C) STAY OFF THE ROOF IN THE WINTER! I want to stress that item © is a personal opinion, as I've almost fallen off of a roof in the winter due to the ice build up. Cutting a roof for vertical ventilation in the winter is brutal enough, but throw in some ice and you're talking the next LODD. Take it from me, be overly cautious when operating on a roof in the winter. I was lucky enough that I was attached to the roof ladder. That fire could have turned out much different for me.

I'm going to focus on the waste part of the issue. Why do we pay for (again, the source of the money is irrelevant) a piece of apparatus that will sit and collect dust and rust for it to be used once in a blue moon? If the WCDES METU was granted for the sole purpose of evacuating nursing homes and similar facilities, does that mean that we actually have a problem evacuating said facilities? Do we have to evacuate these facilities that often that we need a vehicle SOLELY for that purpose? We've reacted wildly after every terror attack and every natural disaster to get the best, shiniest equipment, yet a lot of this equipment ends up sitting idle. If we have a METU, why can't it be used in MCI situations, not just to be able to get the motor running every now and then, but to use that darn thing? And couldn't it be part of a larger, regional task force, where it and similar units from around the area can work as a team to respond to large scale MCI calls?

Funny that we get worked up over the trivial things about the fire service, but we don't get as agitated about the important stuff. Anyway, what other parts of buildings are becoming "lightweight?" Is there any one around here that works construction and is seeing cheaper cost-effective construction?

Wasn't this tried a few times in the past?

HOLY $H!T!!! I did not realize that stairs were being built "lightweight" as well. Thanks for this heads up....I would have never known. It's a shame that construction and the respective building codes allow this kind of construction at all. I understand that it's been proven safe [when it's not on fire or damaged by water or nature], but at what point is someone going to stand up and say enough is enough? Is it 5 FF-LODDs? 10? 1,000? And why can't the almighty insurance lobby step in and say, "Hold on, these homes burn to the ground and cost us millions extra in payouts. Stop this."? Oh, wait...I forgot it's about the bottom line. Apparently it's worth it to someone.

Thank you! I was there, and the troops did a fantastic job. I have never seen anything like this in my career, and hopefully this will be the only time. I understand it's easy to Monday morning quarterback, but people forget that there is mass confusion, communications breakdowns, and just utter chaos with incidents like this. It's best that those of us there take this as a learning experience and pass it on to the next generation of emergency personnel, because they will need to learn from this so the job is done even better next time.