mfc2257

About 2 years ago some of the brass in Pleasantville starting working with us in Millwood to begin running Tanker 15 in the Western parts of Pleasantville's first due. From what I saw before I left and what I've heard since then, a good relationship has been formed and there is a successful plan in place for water supply operations in that part of town. The addition of the old Tanker 5 (I really want to start calling it Tanker 17) will help greatly.

On a few jobs, it's already been established that T-15 from Millwood and T-12 from Pocantico Hills can be onscene and operating within the timeframe that 2371 wants. They have done cross training so that crews from the departments responding as well as P-Ville know what to expect and how to create successful water supply.

In addition, 2371 has used MA-10 out of Millwood HQ as a source pumper in the past. With 1000ft of 4inch, 750gpm pump (that moves more water than what it's rated for), built on a 4wd superduty chassis, it can establish a continuous water supply just about anywhere there is a body of water.

I'm glad to see all of this coming together for P-Ville. This will also help Chappaqua who has a few sections on the Eastern end of thier district where they need to make huge LDH lays. One broken piece of hose or a bad hydrant and they need help. I know Armonk and Millwood have helped with supply in the past, but having P-Ville's tanker will add another layer of safety for firefighters in the event that they cannot establish a continuous water supply through a long lay from a hydrant.

The old Tanker 5 is headed over to pleasntville and will be stationed at Daniel P Hays Hose.

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Tanker 17?

The fire service doesn't need a standard, we need common sense.  If you are being called mutual aid to the scene, you should have a full crew with 2+ interior firefighters AND an operator.  If you are going to water source, that may be negotiable.  Also depends on what type of apparatus you're being called for.  Aerials and rescues require more crew than an engine, tanker, or brush.

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Umm not sure which rig you were hinting towards with the 2+ interior AND an operator, BUT if you can't send a four (preferably five) man engine or a four (preferably six) man truck, then you might not be meeting the expectations of who is calling you.

As a former officer, if I called for additional apparatus and an engine or truck marks up on the air, I expect that there will be at least four ff's filling the assignment. If not, the correct thing to do is to include your staffing number when you sign on the air so that the dispatcher or the OIC have the opportunity to go next due.

"Engine 248 is responding with "three"..... "60 Control to Ossining be advised, you've got Millwood Engine 248 enroute with a light crew of three, I'll be alerting next due unless you direct otherwise"

I use my hometown department as an example, but it doesn't matter who it is, sometimes you respond with a full boat, other times not.... It is your responsibility to let the requesting department know if you are coming fully staffed or light. If they replace you on the box then you'll get a chance another time.

Just another example of how I think ego's have to be set aside.

Thanks again 2257,

I wasnt aware that the 28,000 was to stop the bleeding. I thought it was all that was owed.

Speaking about rants for another time, why don't we open up a post about duplication of apparatus in Westchester?  LOL

I know some Westchester departments like to keep up with the Jones's, but at least they seem to have the money from some source to pay for their rigs. I would say I have seen some trophy seeker departments in my 25 years ( oops, that might be Long Island ) buffing, but by in large I

think depts try to by whats practical for their district, even if it is somewhat over the top sometimes.

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In the spirit of full disclosure, I am getting my info from friends in PG county that I used to run with, (none of which are members or career FF's at Company 13) and a similar EMTBravo like board for PG county so the money cannot be confirmed.... the rest of the situation I think I've got a pretty good handle on.

Unfortunatly I believe that boot drives are no longer permitted by the Prince Georges County Fire Department. Even though all of the individual departments have their own charters, they still have certain county regulations to abide by.

Carnivals and other fund raisers might get them out of this bind, but honestly, they've got to find a sustainable way to maintain income to pay for the Squad if they want to keep it. They owe $28,000 just to make this go away for now, not to settle all of their debt. The situation is bad enough that if they totally default and the county doesn't bail them out, they there is enough debt on the Squad to warrent losing both Engines (which they used as collateral) AND the Squad.

There is definatly a need for the department.... Otherwise they would have been forced to combine with another department by PGFD OR lose their county maintenance, fuel, and insurance for the rigs (this is called deadlining the apparatus) which happened when three companies combined a while back and the PGFD decided that they didn't need a tiller and a rearmount. The tiller deadlined and will be for sale shortly. So the problem isn't that the department isn't needed, in fact the county needs to have an ambulance in their station so they forced one on them (another story for another time). The real argument from PGFD will be that they are in this bind because they purchased a Squad that they didn't need. If they really needed one, there would be a county owned Squad already in the station. THEN if the vollies really wanted a superior piece of apparatus with better equipment they could have bought their own.

Please don't think that I'm taking the side of the county here I'm just stating the facts. The cold hard truth is that even in Westchester there is too much duplication of apparatus. There is no reason why every department south of Bedford Hills needs to have a ladder truck. Katonah has been doing just fine having TL-57 and the Sorkel before it running first due into its box. The Tower Ladder and Cascade craze in Westchester is out of control.... But that's another rant for another time.

Ok folks I'll weigh in here again.... The Riverdale Heights VFD is located in Prince Georges County Maryland.... A softballs toss from Washington DC. This county is where some of the very finest volunteer firefighters in the US are located. Unfortunately too, this county suffers from tremendous fighting between the Volunteers and the Prince Georges County Fire Department. The super basic description of what's going on here is that there are approximately 50 stations in the county. They are either 100% volunteer, combo, or a handful of county owned 100% career stations (although these aren't necessarily the busiest). When volunteers start having trouble getting rigs out, the county will put a few paid guys in the station. If the volunteers are able to recruit etc. and the turnout gets to the point where they don't need the career guys then they'll be pulled. This happened in Kentland and Bladensburg 12 years ago where the vollies had become so strong in numbers and talent that the paid guys were moved to other stations.

Now, the county fire chief is a moron. Most of the paid firemen who supplement the vollies get along with each other regardless of the highly publicized fight between a few idiots at Kentland and some "paid maids" as they're called.

AS FOR APPARATUS. These departments rely on fund raising, small stipends from local government, etc. to purchase their own apparatus. OR if they cannot afford to purchase all the equipment that they need, the county will supply what they need in the form of stripped down very basic rigs. Riverdale Heights made two critical errors. 1st, they got a county ambulance forced upon them a few years ago which has taken many of the available volunteers away from running fire rescue because they are required to staff the county ambulance... AND they bought a Rescue Squad (just called a Squad) that they didn't need. Unlike Westchester where there is tons of duplicated apparatus sitting right next to each other, PG county decides what is needed and where. Riverdale Heights didn't need a squad because there were three surrounding departments that had them. IF the department needed a squad and couldn't pay for it, the County would have placed a county owned squad in their station. If they could afford it then they could have bought it on their own. Looks like they couldn't afford it. So of the 15 or so squads in the county, there are about 10 that are volunteer owned and 5 that are county owned. ALL the apparatus in the county regardless of who owns it have maintenance, fuel, and insurance paid for by the county. (That's why when Kentland has enough guys to staff a 4th engine, either the county will provide a reserve unit or another volunteer station will loan one of it's engines to them)

What does all of this boil down to???? Most likely the county will bail them out. How this will happen is up for debate. Either, the county will take possession of one or both of the volunteer engines and repaint them white with red PGFD markings and give them back to the station OR they'll help them pay the loan. The county will take possession of the squad and place it in service as a reserve or assign it to another station where a county owned squad is in need of replacement. Either way, the Riverdale Heights volunteers won't have a squad much longer if they can't raise the money to pay their debt, because the county doesn't believe that a squad is needed in thier station.

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You cannot sit back and look at this as a matter of dollars and cents. Granted, you could do this but it would offer you a very narrow frame of mind. Aside from the fact that your going to pay for everything today, no matter what it is, you have to look at what your paying for.

Life-Pak 12 w/ 12 Lead ECG, AED, Pacing, SpO2: $9,195.00 + Accessories

Full Compliment of ALS Equipment + Medications: At least $1,500.00

Full Compliment of BLS Equipment: At least $500 - $1,000.00

PA Certified Paramedic: $17 - $20/Hr?

PA Certified EMT: $7 - $13/hr?

PA Certified Ambulance: $100,000.00

While these are very, very rough estimates, your getting a pretty expensive package of resources when you call 911. If you ask me, your getting a pretty good deal - which many insurance companies cover either in full or partially.

Stat - that is correct, if an ambulance is part of an FD they cannot bill for services rendered because FDs are not allowed to bill. A VAC or rescue squad can, however because they are an independent entity.

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Again... FD's in NY cannot bill for service.... But in other states (like Pennsylvania where the article that this thread was started on) can bill for services.

The legislation that governs (burdons) emergency services in NY really has the the state locked in a handcuff of poor solutions. We (you guys since I'm techically no longer a resident) need to start lobbying for change. The most outrageous item that I've seen yet is that fact that you can't have a county wide fire department. Not to say that the individual agencies go away, but rather that they are governed by a central county authority. Until things at the leglislative level change, NYS will never be able to provide the OVERALL level of service to citizens, economy of scale to tax payers, safety to firefighters, resources for both paid and volunteer agencies that you currently get in even the most rural parts of Pennsylvania, California, Arizonia, Florida, Maryland, and Virginia.

The powers-that-be need to start taking ques from areas of the country that are doing it better, faster, safer, cheaper....

There is another form of billing out there as well that has gained some momentum in recent years.... Billing for extrications. Again this is mostly happening in states that are actually Commonwealths (Pennsylvania, Virginina, Mass., and Kentucky) where the laws governing taxation are slightly different.

So the gist of it is that if you are involved in a motor vehicle accident and the FD has to perform an extrication where hydraulic tools are used to facilitate removal, the FD bills the insurance company. In all honesty I've actually heard that most insurance companies are happy to pay that bill of a few thousand dollars usually because the sooner the pt can recieve medical treatment the less they will pay (in theory) in medical costs which we all know are excessive.

The city in Florida that I live in (Winter Park - 3 miles east of Orlando) bills non residents for exitrications. If you are a resident of the city and you are involved in an extrication needed rescue you will not be charged.

It just goes back to departments meeting the level of costs. If you break down the cost of providing a service for each incident that you go to, and there is a reasonable way of charging those who require the service without having to raise everyone elses taxes then in my mind it's worth it. Not to say that you charge for everything, BUT billing for reasonable items makes sense.

You guys are missing something here... Look at the location... It's Reading Township, PA.

In Pennsylvania there are VERY strict rules governing the levying of a fire tax by a municipality.

Roughly interpreted if it's not a CITY (think Yonkers or White Plains not Ossining) you cannot levy a fire tax. (A VERY ROUGH INTERPRETATION)

THUS, in order to provide the type of EMS services needed many agencies both 100% volunteer as well as volunteer supported by career bill for EMS services.

It's not to make a profit, inevitably they always face a fiscal loss, but it's to keep enough funding so the bank doesn't come and repossess the ambulance.

I've discussed it before, but most departments in Pennsylvania own their apparatus and building. They are self supportive through fund raising activities. The local municipality will often times contribute by paying a stipend to the company each year, but it's not even close to what it takes to keep the wheels turning.

The department I ran with during college is replacing it's 1977 Seagrave 100ft RMA with a 2007 Seagrave 100ft RMA... They will pay for it through donations, fund raising such as thier carnival, and finally with a small stipand from each of the municipalities that the unit covers for the rest the company will take a loan out and pay for it over time. You'll get more money for the truck as opposed to an engine, because it's only one of 2 aerial devices in the whole county so each municipality that has it listed as thier first due truck will contribute (think Katonah giving Bedford Hills a small stipand for the purchase of TL-57). With an engine, each of the 26 department's has at least one of their own so they won't be sharing any money.

www.gettysburgfd.com

There is nothing more heartbreaking then watching a bank repossess a piece of fire apparatus. It doesn’t just happen to country bumpkin departments either.

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Roto Rays should never be seen in the Northeast period! Blah they are perhaps the worst lighting device in the service period. I don't see why the mid-atlantic region loves them so much. They are aweful!

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Well I totally disagree with you. There are brighter lights out there yes, but in this current world of wicked fast LED flashing, lots of this stuff gets lost when it's still daylight out or if there is multiple lanes of oncoming traffic (including the responding apparatus) coming towards other drivers. I believe the best forward warning setup for apparatus is the following:

LED lightbar or split bars for Trucks.

Alternating headlights

Strobes mounted in the grille or above the headlights like Seagraves or Spartan's

Roto-Ray ontop of the grille

Mars 888's mounted in front of the mirrors.

Loading up a rig with just LEDs, just strobes, or just halogen lighting is usless. A combination of the three is what helps in all weather and daylight conditions.

I've run my a s s off in the northeast and the mid atlantic and rigs that still run modern lighting with a Roto-Ray and Mars 888 are more visable then some techno LED rig.

FYI that FF has since succumbed to his injuries.

Well there is two definitions of what a Rescue Company is. First there is the training requirement for a FF to be assigned to a Rescue Company which is the first and most important qualification.

Second is the requirement that the vehicle be equiped accordingly which is what I'd like to focus my reply on. If you look at the Westchester County list of Rescue Apparatus as provided on the county website, there are many "heavy rescues" listed. The fact of the matter is that most of these "heavy rescues" are only on heavy service chassis. Most of them are actually medium duty rescues (equipment wise) that carry a full complement of hydraulic tools but a scattered complement of everything else. The long list of equipment below, is what is required by Prince Georges County Maryland for a piece of apparatus to be listed with the county as a Rescue Squad (Squad). It is also from a thoroughness standpoint closer to what the 5 FDNY Rescues are like (not exactly) as opposed to what we have generally accepted as a rescue in Westchester. Now, PG comes under a lot of a lot of bad news for some of the fights that their various companies get into, BUT like it or not they run more fire, vehicle, and technical rescue calls that most other areas of our nation. Their heavy squad's are among the most active, best trained and best equipped in the nation as well. Company 14's Seagrave Squad has been featured in apparatus pictures on EMTBRAVO several times. Here is the equipment requirement:

SCBA (8)

SPARE CYLINDERS 60 Min (8)

HANDLIGHTS (6)

AIDE BAG (2)

AED (1)

EXTRICATION COLLARS (6)

TRIAGE TAGS (50)

OXYGEN SET ( 1)

PORTABLE SUCTION (1)

7500/W POWER PLANT (1)

12,000/W POWER PLANT (1)

FLOODLOGHTS (MOUNTED)

FLOODLIGHTS (PORTABLE) (4)

2000/W FLOODLIGHTS (MOUNTED) (1)

2000/W FLOODLIGHTS (PORTABLE) (4)

CORD REELS 50FT (2)

CORD RELLS 100FT (2)

FLARES (12)

AIR SYSTEM 5000 PSI (2 CYL)

KERNMANTLE ROPE (150’ ½”) (4)

KERNMANTLE ROPE (300’ ½”) (2)

NYLON ROPE (150’ ½”) (2)

CARRABINERS (48)

RESCUE 8 ( 4)

RESCUE PULLEYS ( 4)

RAPPEL RACKS (2)

ROPE ROLLER ( 2)

ASCENDERS ( 4, 4)

MIN 1” WEBBING (20’) (10)

HARNESS (CLASS 3) ( 4)

STEEL WIRE SLINGS ( 4)

2” NYLON SLINGS (2)

SNATCH BLOCKS (4)

SHACKLES (4)

CHAINS MIN ½” 15’ (2)

CHAINS MIN 7/8” 25’ (2)

BOLT CUTTERS 36” (1)

BOLT CUTTERS 48” (1)

GASOLINE CHAIN SAW (2)

GASOLINE CUT-OFF SAW (2)

SALVAGE MASTER OR EQUIV. (1)

JUNCTION BOXES (2)

ELEVATOR KIT (1)

2X4X18 CRIBBING (12)

4X4X18 CRIBBING (12)

6X6X18 CRIBBING (6)

4X4X48 CRIBBING (4)

ASSORTED WOOD WEDGES (12)

STEP CHOCKS (SET OF 4) (2)

WINDSHEILD SAW OR EQUIV. (2)

ABC FIRE EXTINGUISHER 10 LBS (2)

CO2 FIRE EXTINGUISHER 20 LBS (1)

CLASS D EXTINGUISHER (1)

WATER FIRE EXTINGUISHER (2)

HYDRAULIC RESCUE SYTEM CAPABLE OF 5 TONS FORCE MIN AND SIMULTANEOUS 2 TOOL OPERATION (1)

SYSTEM WILL INCLUDED HYDRAULIC SPREADER MIN 27” (2)

6” CUTTER (2)

24” – 36” RAMS (2)

36 – 60” RAMS (2)

15” – 30” RAMS (2)

PORTABLE POWER UNIT CAPABLE OF 5 TONS FORCE MIN AND SIMULTANEOUS 2 TOOL OPERATIONS WITH NO MANIFOLDS (1)

CHAIN PACKAGE AND SHACKLES COMPATABLE WITH SYSTEM (1)

AIR BAG SYSTEM (MIN 220 TONS) (1)

AIRBAG SYSTEM (MIN 4 BAGS) (1)

PLASTIC ROLL (1)

PIKE POLES/ HOOKS (6)

12’ ROOF LADDER (1)

24’ EXTENSION LADDER (1)

10’ FOLDING LADDER (1)

BACKBOARDS (4)

KED (2)

COME-A-LONG (3 TONS) (1)

6 TON WINCH (1)

RECIPROCATING SAW (1)

ELECTRIC CIRCULAR SAW (1)

GASOLINE CAN (2 GALLON) (2)

JIMMI JACKS/ACCES OR EQUIV. (4)

TRENCH JACK/ AIR SHORE (4)

PIPE CUTTERS (2” PIPE) (1)

RAILROAD JACKS (15 TON) (2)

RAILROAD JACKS (5 TON) (2)

HIGH LIFT JACKS (3 TON) (2)

FLOOR JACK (2 TON) (1)

HYDRUALIC JACK (10 TON) (1)

HYDRAULIC JACK (5 TON) (1)

SHORT HANDLE FLAT SHOVEL (2)

LONG HANDLE FLAT SHOVEL (2)

SCOOP SHOVEL (2)

MADDOX/PICK (2)

SLEDGE HAMMER (8LB.) (2)

SLEDGE HAMMER (12 LB.) (2)

FORCIBLE ENTRY TOOLS (3)

FLAT HEAD AXE (2)

PICK HEAD AXE (2)

RABBIT TOOL OR EQUIV. (2)

ELECTRIC FANS (MIN 16”) (1)

ELECTRIC FANS (MIN 22”) (1)

GASOLINE POWERED FAN (1)

LIFE JACKETS (6)

ROPE TROW BAGS (5)

WATER RESCUE HELMETS (5)

COLD WATER RESCUE SUIT (2)

SQUEEGEE (2)

2000/W PORTABLE GENERATOR (1)

PNEUMATIC CUTTER (2)

PRY BARS 36” (2)

FLAMMABLE VAPOR DETECTOR (1)

BINOCULARS (1)

STOKES BASKET (1)

FOLDING STRETCHER (1)

PORTABLE CUTTING SET (1)

PORTABLE RADIOS (2)

WATER COOLER 5 GALLON (1)

PNEUMATIC CUT-OFF TOOL (1)

IMPACT WRENCH/SOCKETS (1)

GROUND PICKETS (6)

HEAT GUN / IR CAMERA (1)

SALVAGE COVERS 12X12 (4)

LOCK-OUT TAG-OUT KIT (1)

METRO WSSAD (2)

SALVAGE BUCKETS (STEEL) (2)

STREET BROOM (1)

HAND SAW (2)

TIN CUTTERS (1)

TOOL BOX (2)

PIPE WRENCH SET 24 36 48 (1)

If the chief has "established command" or been "passed command" by the unit that originally established it then he is the INCIDENT COMMANDER.

This person MUST remain at the command post.

In addition, the chief assigned to Operations should be spending the majority of his time at the command post too, but it would be permissible for them to be doing a walk around at times.

The following chiefs are the mobile eyes and ears of the IC and the Operations Chief and should be on the move through the duration of the event. Too many people jump to criticize them because the see a "white hat" on the roof or coming out the front door to change a pak with an interior crew.

-Interior command (often times there are multiple broken down by floor)

-Exterior command (often times there are multiple broken down by side or exposure)

-Roof operations

-RIC operations (often times there are multiple especially at commercial structures)

-Water Supply operations

-Staging

-Public Information (at large commercial or publicly visible emergencies)

IC's who cannot trust the officers that they have assigned to their sector command have no business being an IC. However I find more often that criticism comes from those who are unfamiliar (not necessarily those posting in this thread) with the proper layering of incident command.

1997 or so 8:00am TSP SB b/t RT 134 Pinesbridge Rd. for the MVA into the woods with 1 ejected. The usual Briarcliff and Millwood units plus R-16 and a Y-town engine on the improper location given by the initial caller (in hindsight it was probably Yorktown's call technically by district line)

Lady went into diabetic shock and with her foot pinned to the floor she drove off the right side of the road and into a big tree and ripped the car and subsequently herself into a million pieces. She was Class 4 upon our arrival.

NYSP requested an investigation scene be set up...So myself and one of our Lt's (who eventually became one of the best cheif's I've ever served under) started turning traffic that was stopped around and sending them back NB to RT 134 to pickup a detour down to RT 100. It's going well for the first 30 or 40 cars until some lady trys to pull a basketball move with her car and fake left and accelerate right around us. We are lucky to get out of the way but she had to stop for another car infront of her... When we approached her window in anger at this point she rolls down and says "What could possibly be so bad up there that you are screwing up my morning and sending me on a wild goose chase"....

My Lt's reply was precious.... "Miss, it's pretty bad up there, an Airplane crashed into an Oceanliner and then got rearended by a Subway Train. The NTSB is all over this one and you'll make our job a lot easier if you'll turn your pretty little Mercedes around and try not to run over anyone on your way back to the detour."

Ahhhh... My days of college in PA where I could get a Lager (almost no one calls it by the brand name Yuengling) on draught (draft... whatever) for a dollar....

That wasn't too long ago either.... 1996-2000.

The only PIA with Yuengling is their stupid keg design with no handles and a different tap.

I used to bring about 10 cases home at Thanksgiving, Christmas, and again before the beginning of the summer. Never lasted more than a few nights with my friends.

You can get it on draught here in Winter Park (Orlando) at Mellow Mushroom. Not for a dollar though

I prefer truck work to engine work any day of the week......

Here are a few answers based on my experience, training, and either county or departmental SOP's where I have spent my time:

Two man Trucks aren't Trucks at all. It's an aerial device with one firefighter and a chauffer.

In a perfect world a truck company will consist of 6 personnel but no less than 4. Driver, the officer, and at least 2 but hopefully 4 ff's.

If you have 4 FF's a good SOP for the crew is (and this will vary by whether or not your first, second, third, etc. due.... and how far you park from the scene)

Driver - Operate aeriel device, throw ground ladders, secure utilities, assist with search & rescue (if aeriel is out of reach) meet up with OVM or Roof Man (if aeriel is out of reach)

Officer - Scene size up, assist with apparatus positioning, search & rescue, OIC if first unit on scene, secure utilities if driver or second due truck unable to.

Pike Pole/Can Man - Throw ground ladders, minor extinguishment with can, search & rescue, open up walls/ceiling for engine crew, overhaul

Irons Man - Forceable entry for engine crew, search & rescue, overhaul

If you have more than 4 FF's you can add the following

Outside Vent Man (OVM) - Vent outside of structure at command's and engine crew's request (windows, siding, cockloft, operate from fire escape), throw ground ladders, search & rescue

Roof Man - Begin roof vent at command's request, ensure stairwell door is functioning (and open if command requests), throw ground ladders, secure multiple routes of egress from roof for incoming crews, search and rescue

It is very important for the truck crew to be working in conjunction with the engine crew and command at all times. A freelancing truck crew that opens a fire up before command or the interior crews are ready can do more damage than good and even fry their brothers inside. Ill timed ventilation can be deadly.

If BHFD was willing to donate to the DPW, I wonder if they would be willing to donate the rig to the county as a spare.

There are a relatively small number of tankers in Westchester for the amount of hydrantless area. If one tanker goes down it's a big deal. When Tanker 10 was OOS after the wreck, it really left the west side of Millwood in a pickle. Tanker 14 is the next due rig and it's got to come from YFD HQ. Tankers 12, 16, 5, 6, & 11 all have pretty good runs to make before they can make it to the Spring Valley Road / Glendale area of Millwood.

SO I'm not suggesting having a huge pool of spares available as 99% of the departments either have more than enough internal engine, truck, rescue resources or the surrounding areas are saturated with rigs that can make a reasonable mutual aid response...... BUT from a tanker standpoint, having a spare fills a need that can't be filled very easily.

Lots of talk about the same old stuff.

Not a lot of talk about how to solve the problems.

I live in Florida other wise I'd be the one to propose a group of career and volunteers to get together and talk with the county, union(s), chiefs assoc., town officials, and finally the departments who's leadership is stale and stuck riding the back step. (pssst I just made the suggestion for you)

Sooooo.... Someone step up and start working on putting the pressure where it counts.

If you're not willing to act, stop posting about the same old stuff because you're not part of the solution.

This is the list of training for the most qualified volunteer I know. He's a 27 year old assistant fire chief.

Pro-Board Fire Officer I, II & III

Pro-Board Firefighter I & II

Pro-Board Fire Instructor II

Pro-Board Fire Inspector I

Pro-Board HAZ-MAT Technician

Pro-Board HAZ-MAT Incident Command

Pro-Board Incident Safety Officer

Pro-Board Aerial Driver/Operator

Pro-Board Pumper Driver/Operator

Pro-Board Public Safety Telecommunicator I

PSFA Structure I & II

PA DOH/PSFA BVR Technician

EMT

Now the happy medium is somewhere between what he's got above, and what's generally acceptable as a minimum.

Again until the COUNTY sets the standard for minimum training, staffing, and response none of the arguments on this forum can ever move forward.

Once the county sets the standard a census of needs can be done for each department in the county (career, combo, or vollie) and action can be taken to make sure that vollies have the physical health and certification needed, and that career apparatus is being staffed with enough FF's to be safe.

Those departments that cannot provide what is required by the county will learn a hard lesson if the county has the balls to tell the taxpayers about the lack of service that they are getting.

We know the issues.... The way to get something out of this thread is to start working on solutions.

A volunteer's pride won't solve a lack of training any more than a career FF's paycheck solves the fact that there are union Trucks, Engines, and Rescues rolling around Lower Westchester with only a driver and FF on board.

SO:

How does Mount Vernon get rigs that work with enough guys to get the job done safely (I know they get the job done.... focus on the word SAFELY)

How do volunteer departments in Central & Northern Westchester start operating with a level of training that is uniform, enforced, and at a level approaching that of a career FF (leave the time on the job componant out of it stick to a level of certification first.)

There are plenty of people on this board who can start pressuring the county and the County Chief's Association for change. You just have to get together and and start the process. You may not get the solution that you WANT but if you can move the needle toward better FF and civilian safety it will be a small victory. Lots of little victorys help to win wars.

Start making suggestions to how to solve the problems that we all know exist based on the millions posts that have been made here.

Volunteers stop worrying about every little thing the paid guys say.

Career FF's stop worring about the fact that Vollies exist and that their world looks different than yours.

Work together to make the best set of standards possible for a county that is decades behind the times.

I hear a lot of "caring" (sometimes confused with "complaining") on this EMTBRAVO about standards, actions, policies, SOP's, SOG's, me vs. you, etc. It's not just career vs. volunteer it's everything we discuss. Mutual aid, apparatus duplicity, standardization of equipment and practices, and just about everything else on this board and the hundreds of others like it around the nation.

What I don't hear a lot of is taking this "caring" emotion turned into suggestions and following through with solutions.

The status quo is maintained for decades because none of this stuff ever goes past the "caring" stage.

I’ve said it many times before on this site and here it comes again: Until Westchester County as well as all the career and/or volunteer departments within it recognize the need for true leadership at the DES level then it’s never going to get anywhere. I’m sick to my stomach when people say “well we can’t have a county department because of some NYS law from decades ago”. Well guess what, just giving up because you can’t officially have a county department doesn’t cut it for the protection of citizens.

The powers that be with Westchester and WCDES need to be pressured by each and every department in the county for leadership to start creating standards in order for and agency to be recognized as a department by the county. All the egos have to be checked at the door. It means that for the common good that departments that operate very independently with local dispatch have to give up a little control. It means that the city of Mount Vernon’s residents are going to learn some hard truths from the County about the type of risk the City is putting their FF’s and citizens at. It means that some of the departments with tower ladders in Mount Pleasant might need to be forced into buying a straight stick the next time around, it means that the county should say “no more mobile cascade units” it means that my boyz in Millwood might have to swallow a tough nut and downsize…. It means that everyone needs to take a look at what they are REALLY doing.

If there is a big issue like the disparity in training across the county, put together a committee of volunteer and career representatives who are highly trained and lobby the DES to create stricter standards. Force departments to do a census on its active members and what their level of certification is. My bet is that the numbers are going to be ugly. Use this information to help direct funds towards training programs designed at meeting volunteers schedules. Use this information also to send a hard message to departments who aren’t providing adequate trained staffing. Getting a ladder from XYZ vollie department with 6 guys of which 2 have truck ops and can operate on a roof doesn’t help the IC who called for it. Same with getting a career ladder with a chauffer and only two FF’s who can’t perform all the jobs necessary due to lack of manpower. The county needs to recognize this and NOT allow these units to be dispatched to fill this role.

AGAIN… get together and lobby the county to give you the tools, standards, and guidance needed. Without central guidance you are going to remain stuck in the mud forever.

As individuals who write on this board you have very little control. As a group of organized FF’s who want there to be a standard you have limitless power to influence county and local government to provide the safest and most efficient structure possible.

I'm a big fan of stacks on all apparatus.

R-36 when the high idle is engaged burps out some nasty stuff and makes it difficult to get equipment out of compartments..... Literally makes your eyes water.

It's not even that its thick smoke like when a diesel is cold, its nearly clear but the mixture of fuel to air in the motor makes for some tough smellin' stuff.

Seth, where did you take the shots of the Harmon Yard area?  They're great!!!

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It looks like the overpass that heads into Half Moon Bay.

Millwood's old Mack "B" Model is pictured there...... I've gotta know if the guy will sell it.

I two years ago I bought Gettysburg, PA's old B-85 and if I could find a way to get Millwood's back I would have the two B models from the two departments that I spent the majority of my life running with.

In Millwood we rarely knew if a hydrant was OOS.

When I lived in PA, Adams County would make a morning and night broadcast on a non dispatch channel that would list all road closings, hydrants OOS, and apparatus that was OOS. Then if necessary the tour commander for communications would contact the chiefs of the department to recommend any box card changes if the closure or OOS was great enough to warrent it. It usually took a few minutes, but it was very helpful.

Knowing this info can change your order of response for apparatus out of the first due station as well as the order and preference of additional apparatus as listed on the box card.

Just one hydrant OOS in a non water district area can mean the addition of 3 tankers and a source pumper to what might have been a normal 3 engine, 1 ladder, 1 bls response to a residential structure fire. It's nice when the county is up to speed and knows to do this when they strike the first alarm assignment instead of waiting for the first engine to lay out and find that the hydrant doesn't work and hasn't been marked.