mfc2257

In the last picture posted above, notice the other ladder that is being thrown at the C/D corner of the building... All this happening just as the crew in entering the building. In Westchester, laddering (even for most truck companies.... of which I know very few REAL truck companies in Westchester) is an afterthought. Everyone wants to be the roof man, the hook, man, S&R, etc.... the ground ladders are usually still on the rig well into the job.... NOT everyone but most are guilty of this.

You won't find too many guys helping to raise the 24 footer in those parts. If you're on the rig then you're expected to be able to handle that job on your own.... The 35 footer, the chauffer might help you throw.... but that argument has been made elsewhere on this forum.

55's wagon was probably tied up on a medic local or on a minor alarm. This never went to a 2nd alarm so even if 55 cleared their prior within minutes of dispatch 1, 9, & 7 would have smoked them into the job with full staffing at roll call... 55 would have been placed in service no matter what.

PG County works on a "single pull" system. That is, unless you phone in (prior to dispatch, not when you hear the call) that you have more than one rig staffed, your station will only have one apparatus pulled from it. There is no "blue light brigade" in PG. Members must be in the station for them to run the call. In the case of this job, Bladensburg (Company 9) would have called in their staffing to communications to indicate that Truck 9, E9-2 and E-93 were staffed with a minimum of 4 crew. When the tones dropped, communications begins filling the box with the closest available apparatus. Ordinarialy if Bladensburg hadn't called in surplus staffing, the box may have hypothetically looked like Truck 1 (Hyattsville) Engine from 9 (Bladensburg) Engine from 12 (College Park, U-Maryland), Truck from 34 (Chillum-Adelphi).... etc. etc.... Now to add to apparatus being pulled from first availble, if another company that is returning from another run or fuel, they may "Bid" on the call by indicating that they are in the area and request to be added to fill the box. Hyattsville is one of the rare stations that does have Engine, Truck, Heavy Squad, Ambulance. However, most companies do have at least two types of apparatus... either Truck/Engine, Engine/Squad, etc. Berwyn Heights (Company 14) is the only company that doesn't have an Engine (anymore). They have a Tiller and Heavy Squad. Yes it's the same county as Kentland....

I prefer to work off of a straight stick because it is the most unencumbered way to get the job done... On that note the following is an unsolicited diatribe on truck companies in general...... Quite possibly a thread hijacking. The tower ladder has become a crutch for many departments in recent years. The theme that it is easier to rescue and cut from a bucket has pushed so many departments that would ordinarily operate very well with a straight stick into purchasing a tower ladder. Trends in the fire service seem to control departments much more than demographics. For example, Chappaqua purchased a tower ladder, when in reality a rear mount quint would have worked great.... I'm not really sure why they needed a bucket. Yorktown on the other hand made a great choice with the purchase of their new straight stick.... I'm not really sure why Millwood (my home department) is purchasing a new aerial device at all. In the NY Metro area (outside of NYC) tillers aren't very popular. In the Mid-Atlantic states however tillers are EVERYWHERE. They provide a ton of maneuverability both in tight streets and in traffic, they have a ton of compartmentalization, AND they are a mid mount design that allows the ultimate in apparatus positioning. In the end however departments need to look at exactly what the demands of their district are. Too many aerial devices are purchased based on the desire to have similar capabilities to the departments that surround your first due.... When, in actuality, the needs of the department can be met without purchasing an aerial at all. Kudos to Katonah, Goldens Bridge, Pound Ridge, Croton Falls, Bedford, etc.... You've been doing great without a truck company thus far and there are departments in Westchester that should shed their aerials and follow your lead.... I'm not sure why Millwood, Croton, Briarcliff, Hawthorn, Valhalla, Chappaqua, Thornwood, Pleasantville, Montrose, Verplank, Yorktown, Thornwood, Tarrytown, Sleepy Hollow, Bedford Hills, Mount Kisco, Ossining, Buchanan...... Basically all the northern Westchester departments can't exist with 10 truck companies instead of 20++++. If northern Westchester had less truck companies, then their members would get more work... Thus, their members would get more experience... Experience begets expertise.... Expertise begets positive outcomes....

Rocky's Millwood Deli.... Jumbo Regular..... The way to go. Tim Horton's is great too. Drank many a cup on the way into and out of Quebec on hunting/fishing trips. Starbucks however makes a great cup of coffee. The problem is that most people like sissy coffee that barely passes as chocolate milk. For those who don't like coffee stiff like a dress shirt, then you better stay away or order a mocha-frapa-wrappa-halfcaf-skinny-nowhip-onepump-venti-soy-latte to satisfy your gentle tastes.

That is horrible. Similar to an incident that happened 31 years ago in Fayetteville, PA just outside Chambersburg. Chief James Cutchall and Wilber Brookens were shot and killed by Gary Lee Rock while responding to the house he had set fire to. The Chief was riding the seat in the wagon and when he stepped onto the curb he took a shot to the head with a .300cal rifle. Wilber Brookens was a neighbor who when he saw smoke came to the aid of Rock who shot him through the heart. Several other FF's were shot as well. When he was arrested, Rock asked "how many did I get". Sick.

By home rule, I refer to the Constitution of the State of New York which ultimately protects each municipality's rights and allows them to make "home rules" and prevents the standardization of response for emergency services. Each municipality or district can say "this is the way we do it".... Right or wrong. roofsopenPlease don't think that I'm arguing with you as we discuss this. Your opinion is well received and certainly not jaded. Working for the largest department in the USA brings a totally different but equally valid point of view to the service.In NYC there is a crapshoot as to whether or not the building is 3 or more stories depending on where the units are turning out of. If the job is in midtown on the 10th or above floor, then the chauffer for a truck can't help much from the turntable, but he can control utilities and the elevator..... But even though you work for the FD that many daydream of being a part of, I'm not referring to FDNY when I make my statements.I'm talking about areas in Westchester, Putnam, Duchess, Rockland, etc etc etc ...where career and vollies mix.... Where some rigs have 2ff's and some have 6ff's... Where we are still waiting for IC's from the first due department to call for apparatus instead of requesting a preplanned second, third, etc alarm... Where just because a department has three wagons a truck and a squad we expect that they will all get out... Where departments respond and someone who is already onscene has to hold their hand as to how to go to work because SOG's and SOP's feed egos and not safety....What I have witnessed as a successful fireground tactic in many mid-atlantic (PA, DE, MD, DC, VA, WV) counties (not necessarily areas with county run departments, but rather where each department in the county subscribes to the same SOP/SOG) is the aggressive operation of the truck companies on a standardized basis where the first and second due trucks on the initial dispatch, combined with the first and second due engines, ensure that the stick goes to a predetermined spot on the roof and the ground ladders that are available are thrown right away. Every window gets a ladder thrown to it. The reality is, that properly thown ground ladders in the initial moments of a job provide an ongoing means of egress for FF's. The stick can only go to one spot at a time and should NEVER be relied upon as the primary means of escape when a ground ladder can remain at a window for the duration of a job. Ground ladders are under utilized and so is the manpower that can throw them.The picture that started this whole thread is a start in the right direction, but in my mind if it was taken after the second and third due crews arrived than it is actually a failure because the majority of the windows are left without ground ladders thrown to provide emergency egress.

Everyone has their own thoughts on how it should be done. Personally I don't believe that the majority of NYC metro counties (because of BS Home Rule Laws) have a tight enough plan for how fires are handled from an incoming apparatus standpoint. I believe that a SOP/SOG structure where the stick goes to the roof and every window three stories and under gets laddered regardless of the call is the way that standard response should happen. Thus, during the initial moments of a fire attack the stick gets put to the roof (again standard for 1st & 2nd due truck for sides A & C) and that all the windows on all four sides get laddered right away. This way, if someone is looking to bail from the 2nd or 3rd story, then they've got a ground ladder at the window no questions asked... No waiting for the stick regardless of whether or not the chauffer is at the turntable. The chauffer of these rigs, as well as all the rigs that are onscene and not flowing supply or attack lines OR have their sticks to the building should be throwing ladders to EVERY window. The OIC shouldn't have to order this. It is what should be common practice. If the OIC thinks that given the situation, the truck's chauffer should man the turntable for the duration then fine, he can make that call and tell them to stand fast. My point goes beyond aggressive laddering and to the theory of apparatus and scene management as a whole. I'm just not overjoyed with the way that the Metro NYC area works from this standpoint. It doesn't mean I don't like the people.... I just think that the metro NYC area is stuck in a home rule rut that compromises progress in emergency response and prohibits the aggressive safety tactics that we're all applauding from the Boston metro area.

I think you were referencing my post. While I don't believe that a 1st due truck company chauffer should "abandon" his/her rig, I think it is a waste for them to be sitting there during the initial moments of a fire attack when they could be throwing ground ladders on the side of the building that they are positioned on. They still have a view of what is going on and are a short distance from their turntable if they need to take quick action. All the while they can be performing other tasks that help to ensure the safety of interior crews while still being available to move the stick if necessary. If due to conditions upon arrival, the stick is usless (powerlines, setback, wagon driver blocking access, etc), then the truck operator needs to fall in with his/her crew and throw ladders, control utilities, S&R, or vent.

I love seeing that.... But there are still upper floor windows that haven't been laddered. What frustrates me about jobs I used to see in Westchester is that everyone is waiting on the truck company to come and hope that they throw ground ladders. It's always been my policy and thought at jobs that as soon as piece of apparatus arrives and it's chauffer has done their primary responsibility then the chauffer needs to begin throwing ground ladders. For example first due truck arrives and the crew splits to do S&R and Vent. As soon as the chauffer has put the aerial to the roof, they need to start throwing ground ladders. Once water supply is established the engine chauffers need to throw their ground ladders. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to see apparatus (especially second, third, fourth due) that are staged because their manpower has gone to work, but their chauffer is sitting around with a full bed or rack of ladders while crews operate in a structure with second and third story windows that are still unladdered. The policy that chauffers must stay with apparatus at all times is a crappy one and a waste of manpower.... They should be throwing ground ladders, assisting the chauffers of apparatus that is being actively used, or falling in with their crews. If their rig needs to be moved in a pinch, someone will be able to do it.... And if it gets scratched in the process (not likely) then insurance will pay for it.

From LoHud.com link below. I really can't believe this. The city is going to have a Mounted Unit which will require the costs to maintain the horses, train the officers, trailer & tow vehicle, etc. What kills me is that the FD is struggling on ALL fronts... Manpower, stations, apparatus, etc..... Mounted units I don't believe to be "essential" and that the FD meeting minimum operating standards for the safety of the firefighters is far more important. If I was a Mt. Vernon jake, I'd be boiling over this.

Understand how cascade and station fill work... Filled thousands on R-36 and at Station 2 on Rt134... I was always led to believe that SCUBA and SCBA had different requirements for air quality... Sounds like from some of the experienced folks that its not much of a concern. Thanks for the input.

Interesting.... So would one go as far to say that SCUBA diving at shallower depths with SCBA air is acceptable.... When would a dedicated SCUBA filling station be required... 20-50-100ft ????

How does the cascade help with dive ops... I was under the impression that SCUBA air and SCBA air were captured and pressurized differently..... More like the process for filling SCUBA was more intricate than simply filling SCBA.

Another tax to burdon the American people? I can't say that I agree with you here. We need to be much more conservative with our public dollars. Revoke the offenders license for life. No second chances. There are people with 3 DWI convictions still legally driving out there. Lets start by making better use of the laws that are already on the books.

Just curious, not a knock (yet), if Intergraph is so adaptable and versitile, then why (as of the time that I departed from WC in 2005) do the response territories (what I would typically call a box area) for departments appear to be set up by EMS response and not by fire response. When I was trying to implement a box system and alarm assignment structure to put in the CAD for Millwood in '03-'04 I was given a map of Millwood's territory to work with. There were response areas blocked out and I was told, "that's whats in the CAD and EMS got set up first so we have to live with it." So when I wanted to break the boxes out by hydrant vs. non hydrant and commercial versus not I couldn't because the EMS territories don't give consideration to fire related variables. Thoughts? Also, why has the Quint designation been eliminated. Why is there no Engine-Tanker, and Engine-Rescue designation so that apparatus are being appropriately labeled according to their capabilities. Are all the so called ladders in the county carrying the full NFPA mandate of ground ladders... I doubt it. Yet they are still being called Ladders when in reality they should be Quints or Engines. I feel like these are the things that the system should be taking into account.

Before this turnes into a giant ladder on the parkway vs. not conversation.... Consider this. Depending on what department this is, what you see on the parkway might be the assignement for a "rescue local" alarm. The truck probably carries the rescue equipment and the engine is there for suppression if needed. The heavy squad is probably not called unless the box is upgraded to serious entrapment or multiple vehicles. So... There is a good chance that the ladder that is there isn't just there for blocking the scene, but rather because it's the first due "special service" unit to deal with the possible extrication of patients.

Unbelievable.... It's NOT ok to sue a bat manufacturer for a product that is approved for use by the league. It's not their fault. They build the product that the sport demands. If they are banned, then they'll stop making them. It's NOT ok to sue the store that sold the bat that is approved for use by the league. If they're banned and continue to sell them then that is a different story. This is utter nonsense and I CANNOT believe that some of you are buying into it. This is why it is medical malpractice insurance is so friggin high. This is a drain on the taxpayers, this is a waste of resources. I am sickened by this waste of our judicial system.

You would sue people who had no fault in what happened? Take money out of someone elses pockets even though they are innocent? That is a total abuse of American Freedom and the legal system that our forefathers put in place to protect us. I'd laugh you out of court and add to your expenses by forcing you to pay the unjust legal bills of those that you sued without probable cause.

No its frivolous all the way through not just on the surface. Yes this kid is going to require medical attention for the remainder of his life BUT he was signed up to play ball by his parents. They PUT HIM in the situation where he got hit by the ball, yet they want to sue eveyone else for what happened. Lets face it, the only people who are to blame here are the parents for allowing him to play a sport where hard balls travel in excess of 100mph AND the kid for not being alert enough to catch, deflect, move, or defend against the batted ball. I wonder what kind of bat was in this kids equipment bag. Somehow I doubt that he was using a Louisville Slugger when he could've been using an aluminum bat. It's total hypocracy. Are they going to sue the kid who hit the ball because he may have lifted weights to make him stronger. What about the pitcher, the harder he throws the ball the harder it comes off the bat.... Lets sue him too. While we're at it, if the catcher signed the pitch into the pitcher lets sue the catcher. At the end of the day, its not the bat manufacturer's fault, the ball manufacturers fault, the league, the coach, or anyone elses fault that he got hit by the ball. He was playing a competitive sport with the permission of his parents where injuries happen frequently. I was involved in a similar incident when I was 14 as posted earlier. In reality even though my coach hit me with the ball, I knew as I was walking off the field that he was hitting to the outfielder directly behind me. It's my fault that I wasn't keeping my eye on the ball.

When I was in 8th grade, I was hit in the left temple with a line drive from a metal bat. The starting infield for the New Castle All Star Team had just finished taking hits from our coach and I was playing third base in preparation for a game against Bedford-Pound Ridge. He was going to hit to the outfield while the non starters came on to replace us in the infield to take some practice. As I walked to our bench on the third base line, my coach was going to hit a fly to the left fielder but it came off the bat wrong and ended up being a line drive into my head. I was out for several minutes with a severe concussion. I couldn't hold down solid food for a week, and had a whopper of a headache for about the same period of time. My parents never for a moment thought about suing the league, the coach, etc. In fact the coach called the next night to see how I was after being released from the hospital, and they never even questioned him about it. It was an accident and they were grateful for his call to check on me. These lawsuits cost the taxpayer millions each year. A judge has to be paid to preside over the trial, people are taken away from their families and jobs to sit on jury duty, the courthouse expense to heat, cool, light, and maintain the facility is incurred...... It's just crazy. The system that our forefathers set in place to protect us has now turned into one of the most easily abused branches of government. Absurd!

I'm in Winter Park (Orlando) just south of Volousia.... We're getting entrails of smoke from the fires. This is the FL dry season. Summer temps (90 today) with no rain for 2 weeks or more. During the main part of the summer, we have rain for 20-30 minutes every day so the temps never get above 93-94 and the rain keeps the brush and soil in good shape to repel fire. As a 27 year native of NY and a 4 year native of FL I can honestly say that NY summers are worse than FL. I've NEVER seen 100 degrees here and in NY you see it from July to August for a few days. Anyhoo.... FL is well prepared for brush jobs. Tons of brush rigs running with engine companies and air support. The big ones that you are reading about are large and dangerous BUT not out of the ordinary for what FL departments normally deal with. The media needs something to report because Hillary and Obama have put us all to sleep.

more importantly, let me hijack this thread and point out the two beautiful B-Models next to it..... Whos are those?

John - You are correct. R-36, E-248, and E-247 all have hydraulic tools on them now. Before I left for FL I built a brand new set of cribbing for both R-36 and E-248. The original cribbing for R-36 was transferred to E-247 even though there was no tool on it at the time and the scraps were tossed. Since then I'm sure stuff has been moved, scattered, added to, etc. As for equipment: E-247 (light rescue engine) out of HQ now carries the combi tool with gas power unit as well as R-36's old set of "O" cutters and a good set of cribbing. E-248 (medium recue engine) out of Rt134 Station 2 carries a full set of hydraulic tools (not combi) as well as cribbing and airbags. R-36 (heavy rescue squad) out of HQ is a soup to nuts heavy (by Westchester's standards) rescue squad with bags, tools, struts, jacks, gobs of cribbing, air chisel, etc. However with the topic at hand, I still say that it's possible that it wasn't fully known about E-248's capabilities and that under that assumption R-37 was the right choice at the time.