FFPCogs

I see your point but maybe you are missing mine. Most rigs that I know of keep spare nozzles for use on lines other than the preconnects. We keep a variety of spares of each size nozzle so that we can use either an 1 3/4 or 2 1/2 as needed from the unused discharges. As additional lines are needed it means that the blue 1 3/4 or the blue 2 1/2 nozzle will always go with the blue discharge same for red, yellow, green, black and so on. Color coded or not the MPO still must be made aware of the size, length, height and nozzle type of each line being stretched. The color coding simply helps reduce confusion once multiple lines are in operation. As for the rest of the MPOs responsibilities well as you say that is a whole other topic. BTW we do not currently color code our lines although I think the idea has merit. Maybe I'll bring it up. Cogs

Agreed much easier in a smaller dept especially ones that don't get alot of work. As with most things there's no one size fits all solution. Not looking to debate but rather discuss. It's a given that you know far more about your FDs ops than I do but in the interest of objectivity how about this. When operating handlines it is the color on the nozzle bale not the hose butts that indicate what line you're using. This is why only the discharge and nozzle colors are used to indicate the line, hose or butt colors are irrellevant. Also there are only so many discharges on a rig and as such there are only so many nozzles to go with those discharges. My thoughts on this were; by keeping the color coded nozzles stored in close proximity to the discharges they would most likely be connected to it is simply a matter of connecting the line to the same colored discharge as the nozzle you grab from that side or rear of the rig. The controlmen then tell the MPO what color discharge the lines are connected to as they are being stretched. My thoughts exactly. Why pay all that money for hose when a few cans of spray paint will yeld the same result. It is only important that the discharge and nozzle match. Cogs

Although I am a neighbor to the East I will interject just a bit. The idea of having a list of available resources is a good one, as is verifying the credentials of the units on that list. Pointless to be on a list if you are not available 24/7 or don't the manpower and skill set to perform the tasks 24/7. That doesn't mean volunteers should be excludedm but it does mean that they have to assure they can meet the responsibility in, as Chief Flynn point out, a reasonable amount of time. I guess it is my age or lack of tecno savvy but computers while very valuable machines are just that machines. I am very hesitant to put all my eggs in that basket. Yes a computer generated list is wonderful, but keep it's companion hard copy book in the Chief's car or rigs as well. The price of the printing and the effort in keeping it updated far outweighs the inability to acccess the info because the computer froze up. To use one of my favorite analogies when talking about relying on technology or machines...Plan to use the saw but bring the axe because no matter what the axe starts every time. Cogs

I have to agree that MPOs should know their pumps and which discharge is which long before they are actually pumping a job. That said if it helps some operators well then it helps and that's not a bad thing I guess. To me a much simpler solution is to color code the handlines. A ring of matching colored paint on the female connection or bale of the nozzle and the discharge lever will make thing almost idiot proof. "Charge the blue line" or "Shut down the red line" or "need more pressure on the yellow line", it really can't be any easier than that. So long as the colors match (and you're not colorblind) it is almost impossible to screw up. Cogs

Although off topic I wholeheartedly agree. But if we are to demand standards we must also make the training to attain those standards obtainable by all. That means someone has to foot the bill and that someone usually means the taxpayers that will benefit from those standards. That also means that we as a service, career and volunteer alike, must work together to ensure that funding is available so that all, including those taxpayers, may benefit. I can't speak for any other FD but for us we not only want minimum standards in line or better than those of our career counterparts, we do everything within our capacity to ensure them to better serve our community. That said we have many discussions within our training division on this subject. How to encourage the members to meet higher standards, how to require them to do so when necessary, what standards above and beyond the minimums to pursue and so on. In the end though the discussion always comes back to one inescapable fact...we simply don't have the money to do it all. Like many other facets impacting the fire service it becomes a matter of enlightening the bean counters that the money spent is not an expense, but an investment...and that is a fight we are more likely to win if we fight it together. Cogs

I get the point. I don't disagree that standards should apply equally and that has been my tune in every post in every thread that deals with the issue. My hang up is that regardless of that inequity FFs still step up and perform their duty and freely put their lives on the line to protect their communities. In turn those communities should not turn their backs on them as a matter of course when issues arise. Negligence or incompetence is negligence or incompetence regardless of a paycheck and when this occurs those responsible should bear the consequences of their actions or lack of them. This Bill will not erase or eliminate anyone's ability to pursue their right to seek compensation or justice and get it when justified. But it will protect volunteers in cases where despite their best efforts tradgedies occur, just as indemnification does for our career counterparts. Cogs

Thanks. I guess the most unfortunate thing to me is that yet again it comes down to a career vs volunteer debate. I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would think that ALL firefighters should not be afforded the same protections, regardless of their "qualifications". Yes, disparities do exist but in the end we ALL willingly put our lives at risk to help those in need do we not. And that above all else is what matters. Cogs

I'm sorry but when a firefighter or firefighters act in good faith in perfoming their duty (or calling or "hobby" or whatever the hell else you want to call it) on behalf of and in service to a community that community should bear the burden of protecting those firefighters should the need arise be they paid or volunteer. Cogs

Ahhh good to hear from you B. And so begins another episode in our ongoing series. With that let us begin with the spirited defense of our views There is indeed a difference between a union and a VFD, but since in many places volunteers do not have a collective voice or union to represent them and their interests, it falls on the leadership of many VFDs to act in that role. I will agree that a Fire Chief's primary responsibility is to ensure the safety of the community, but it is also the responsibility of a Fire Chief to ensure the safety and welfare of their personnel, especially in the volunteer sector where it is the Chief that is voice of the members. For volunteers many times the leadership must wear both hats to balance the needs of the community with that of the members. As far as incentives go, to equate the pursuit if all legal incentives for the members with a disregard of the community is, IMO misguided, for it is this pursuit that acts to fortify the department and allow it to better serve that community. In my experience I don't think I've ever seen a case where support for the one outweighed the good of the dept. as a whole or community. That is not to say it hasn't or doesn't happen, just that I am honestly not aware of it personally. And I agree 100% that the mission of the dept , any fire department, must always be "bigger" than the support of the members, but when in sync, which in my experience it usually is, it is everyone that benefits. Money or incentives have a twofold effect. 1st is recruitment, which as we all know has shown mixed results when viewed broadly. When viewed on a case by case basis though there are some very successful programs. Much of that success depends on the level of committment a community is willing make in it's fire dept. The other effect is retention which has seen a far better return on the investment overall, and is therefore not a bad investment. But like any investment there comes a point where continued support for it can no longer be justified. In our case when or if a department can no longer meet it's responsibilities, either alone or collectively with other area VFDs, then that investment may be better utilized supporting another program, such as hiring part time or full time career FFs. Cogs

The legal definition of what constitutes a volunteer is vastly different as it allows all of the above and more. While some may find that legal definition to be a misnomer, that is irrelevant...it is the law. That being the case VFDs have every right and quite frankly the responsibility to pursue every available option that could help them in fulfilling their mission and providing for their members, just as a union does. Anything less on the part of a VFDs leadership would be irresponsible. Furthermore in a time when volunteerism is down in general, as a taxpayer I support programs that have the potential to increase the ranks of a VFD and thereby save me, the taxpayer, some of my hard earned dollars. I am incredibly uncomfortable as a firefighter with the notion that there are members of the fire service who believe volunteer firefighters serving their community should not be afforded the same legal protections as those that are paid to serve. Cogs

Good stuff. I will be sure to call my State Reps and encourage them to support for the Bill. Cogs

Moose, Does your Fire Dept. "MAKE" members train? Is there a mandatory requirement over and above NYS guidelines? If so how do you do it? What are the policies ect that make "making" members train enforceable? If your dept doesn't "MAKE" members train why not? Cogs

Saw this video yesterday on another site, and personally I think it's pretty funny. Hope no one reads too far into it. And hey let's face it there's always a bit of truth in humor. Cogs

Nor do I want to be looked down upon or will I be. On page after page in thread after thread I say equal standards for both sectors should be required as a matter of course. Unfortunately that view, which is not only what I too want but quite frankly what I strongly believe to be the right policy, is not shared by all. For me personally and my dept (which is where my views on this were largely shaped) the belief is we are firefighters and professional in our approach to performing the duties that responsibility entails, therefore our training should reflect this and does far in excess of our State's minimums. What other VFDs (or any FD really) does we have very little control over. Cogs

Apparently Dinosaur and Johnny you didn't read the entire portion of the post you quoted. Here let me give you a remider: Mimimums are required by our By laws to retain certain "rights" and status and although this does impact participation to a degree as far as training is concerned we have traditionally offered well run and challenging training that is it's own draw. We have never found the need to enforce requirements, even though the requirements exist as do the the enforcement policies if they're needed. This because our membership not only values our training as a part of our traditional professional departmental attitude towards our duty, but expects our Officer's and Training Division to maintain it's quality for their benefit. The point is unlike a paid department in which the paycheck can exert a considerable amount leverage in making people do what they have to do, volunteer organizations do not generally hold that level of power. Ultimately volunteers do what they want to, including leave if they don't like the standards, and lose very little because they can, it is as simple as that. For us we haven't as of yet had to force people to do anything, there has been no need. Our members fully understand from day one what is expected and what is excepted and follow through with what is required not because they have to but because they want to, which is a credit to their commitment and dedication. Threats and force only go so far in Vollyland and that is simply reality. Better to have 10 members that want to do what's required and do it well because they want to, than have 100 that do so only out of fear and with little ownership. Cogs

It is in our By-laws that to come off probation you must be certified FF 1 and medical first responder (minimum MRT or whetever they're calling it this week) which is also the required State minimum for interior operations. There are also annual training evolutions required by CT OSHA including Bloodborne pathogens, Haz-Mat refreshers, quarterly SCBA, and a minimum of 1 live burn that every active member MUST attend to remain active. Our Bylaws also require in house testing to move up in grade or "Class" within our Dept.. Our membership consists of Probationary members (and Jr. Prob 16-18), 2nd Class and 1st Class status. As stated FF1 and medical is required to come off probation, in addtion to that we require all probationary members over 18 to take and pass an in house class and exam to move up to 2nd class status. Training for members on probationary status is geared towards preparing them to take and pass this in house promotional exam. After successfully completeing the process this level allows interior ops, driver's training and qualification (for those over 21), service on committees ect ect. Training for 2nd Clss members consists of regular (weekly at a minumum) participation in peformance and objective based company level fireground operations evolutions consisting of Engine Co, Truck Co, Rescue Co and extrication drills, driver's training for those eligible and the annual state mandated training listed above. In addition we regularly schedule, review and practically apply RIT, self rescue,and safety and survival practices (semi annually at a minimum although evolutions are generally incorporated into our weekly company level drills). In addition members at this level who choose to, begin classroom and field training in preparation for our in house 1st class exam. Promotion to 1st class status is voluntary but is also required by our By laws to hold service board (line officer) positions. Training for promotion to this level is geared towards officer preparation including leadership principles, fireground operations, stratedgy and tactics and personnel management (as it applies in a volunteer organization). This training is held both concurrently with regular weekly drills and seperately on different days. It is also incorporated into the weekly evolutions to allow for the practical application of the material presented by those in training for promotion to 1st Class status. Training for 1st Class members consists of all of the above (with 1st Class members acting as instructors at times as well as participants) along with dedicated training to review and reinforce those skills taught as part of the preparatory pre exam training. As a volunteer organization we cannot mandate and practically enforce anything per se (as members could vote with their feet if they choose), other than the State required courses. Ours is a point based system whereby membership priviledges and status is dictated by a members participation based on points accumulated for calls, training and other duties. Mimimums are required by our By laws to retain certain "rights" and status and although this does impact participation to a degree as far as training is concerned we have traditionally offered well run and challenging training that is it's own draw. Cogs

It's the Germanes you have to watch out for, they live in between Germany and Denmark Cogs

I came across this article recently written by a D/C in Canada. Although it is directed towards our neighbors to the North, I think it is just as applicable here. http://www.firefight...tent/view/1433/ Now I know this is a rather emotional topic for some but maybe we can keep any discussion that ensues civil, after all we are all in this together and sometimes discussions on this topic can lead to an understanding that will allow us all to better serve our communities. Cogs

To me yes this is an infringement as you should be able to run and get elected as a taxpaying resident. A far as your ability to do so, well all I can say to that is what I was told a few posts back: why don't you get together with like minded citizens or fellow resident career FFs, get a lawyer and challenge the policy. In many states it is now illegal for an employer to put such restrictions on an employee so in fact it is the union that dictates the policy. And while yes you could leave the union are you going to tell me there wouldn't be repercusons to you personally, your possibilities at career advancement, and your paycheck if you did? I think to suggest that there would be no other repercussions other than simply being a non union member that can't vote on a CBA or go to the Christmas party is ludicrous. It is the implied threat of those additional consequences the prohibition tacitly endorses that keeps some career FFs from volunteering in heavily unionized areas....or so I've been told. I think they recognized, through the efforts of the volunteer lobby and willing career FFs, the inherent conflict the union's policy has with our guaranteed civil rights to choose what we want to do with our own time and effort. I'm sure they are as well and if I were so inclined to want to pursue those avenues I would seek them out, but for now firefighting will suffice. No insurance premiums were the source of funding for the groups of people who voluntarily decided to band together to offer fire protection to their communities after a series of devastating fires throughout the colonies. Cogs

Well said, good point. Cogs

If those opportunities were available I or others just might do so. Fact is the fire service in this country, having been founded by volunteers and still largely comprised of volunteers, is an available outlet to serve that anyone that wants to should be able to particpate in. Cogs

CT, that horse was dead a long time ago, but from my perspective this discussion has been not only stimulating... ...but educational to an extent as well. We aren't going to change the world here, that's for sure but we, or at least I, have had the opportunity to gain some insights into the strongly held beliefs of the other "side" and that is always a good thing as far as I'm concerned. In the end we are all here to serve and I believe we all do to the best of our abilities and because of that our communities benefit. Cogs

I'm not the one prohibiting anyone from serving based on their employment, nor do I differentiate between career and volunteer firefighting by stating one is "better" than the other simply because of the manner in which one serves. I'm not at all anti-career or anti union, I'm anti- personal rights infringement and pro-volunteer and there's no hypocrisy in that. Nor am I but there are a number of States that have decided that ones personal choice does override the union's position which leads me to believe that at least some may find the argument "right". Agreed

Tough spot to be in. Spreading the weight of a ladder with plywood or another ladder does have merit as does an attempt from the roof. To me regardless of what method is used I'd want to get a crew on the roof to ventilate immediately and open up the front of the building to pull the fire up and away from the rear of the structure while the rescue attempts are being made. Cogs

Mr. Strangio, I will have to sound off here as well. I may be considered alot of things but a "freeloader" is not one of them, especially when it comes to performing my duty as a FF. I can say with all sincerity and confidence that the same applies to my fellow BFD members as well. Also as sqd47bfd has pointed out and was addressed at last night's hearing, the residents of Belltown and all the volunteer districts for that matter are paying their part of the bill for SFRDs services. And this is what we and the Mayor are trying to remedy. While you may not agree with the current direction of that remedy you can rest assured in the knowledge that we are working diligently to relieve SFRD from the burdens they face "up North". Cogs