gamewell45

It's also important to remember that the union is there to protect the process.  If you don't protect the process when an employee is disciplined, particularly when the employee may very well deserve the discipline or termination, then you set a dangerous precedent whereby someone in the future who doesn't deserve to be disciplined or terminated is harmed. 
 
It may not be easy or popular to represent an employee who may deserve the discipline or termination, but they have the right to representation and the union has an obligation to do so.  It's not the union's fault if the employer fails to follow proper procedure and the discipline or termination is overturned.  It's all no different than a person accused of a crime having the right to an attorney, the defense attorney having the obligation to represent them to the best of their ability and the police and DA having to follow the proper procedures in building and trying their case in order to avoid it being thrown out on a technicality.

I've been involved as a union rep in numerous discharge cases and as a rule have the burden of proof; in most of them management doesn't do their "homework" and the employee ends up being reinstated, many times with full back pay and benefits as well.  It's also important to remember that the  union is not there to "protect" the employee, rather they are there to "represent" the employee .

I might be able to be of assistance; I have quite a bit of experience in the labor field serving as a union officer as well as grievance chairman, most of it being in the private sector.  If you want I'll supply you with an email address to contact me.

 
That hasn't exactly been what I've seen from the large city near me.  They've had several employees across different city departments that have been reinstated, largely due to violations of due process, in some cases, rushing into terminating the employee.

There was a special operations team here in my area of bergen county that was combined Volunteer & a career dept few years back that responded for confined space & collapse calls  They were well trained & had plenty of resources  I believe the state USAR  Task Force is now called in  now  no idea what happened to this team  We also have The East Bergen Repel team witch  is all volunteer that responds to Repel jobs as well as confined space jobs it's well run & trains constantly I believe Englewood fire (career dept ) has Repel trained members that can respond as well

Agreed. Especially in area's where the volunteer turnout is dismal on a regular basis.  Westchester has changed over the past 40 years and many departments have failed to keep up with the times and its come home to roost.  The AHJ has an obligation to provide fire protection to its residents and if it means conversion from volunteer to combo or a fully career department, that's what is going to happen regardless of opinion.
 
My suggestion to fire commissioners/city managers would be when a member of your department appears before you to make a suggestion that they would feel improve recruitment/retention/participation that you give it serious consideration; the mindset should be how can we make it work as opposed to why it won't work.  A positive outlook usually works better then one of negative as people tend to support what they help to create, something I think many departments have forgotten over time.  Younger members bring enthusiasm, dedication and Ideas; the older members offer experience and wisdom; combine both and you have a chance to allow the fire departments mission statement to succeed. Just my opinion.

Never let a few bad apples, whether career or volunteer, spoil the entire barrel because to the core in our hearts we are all there to help those during their time of need.

Never let a few bad apples, whether career or volunteer, spoil the entire barrel because to the core in our hearts we are all there to help those during their time of need.

I can see that. I grew up in PC. I have very good friends both volunteer and career. Im sorry it's come down to this. I'd like to meet everyone at the old Terry Lodge for drinks and food like the old times. 
 
P.S.
Kelly's in Rye is always an option.  Lol.

 
I know the masses here on EMTBravo love to talk about consolidation, and since I stumbled upon this while reading the news, I figured it could be a fun discussion where consolidation IS moving forward.  So, I'll start us off with some facts and information about the districts.
 
The Village and Town of Victor are located in Ontario County, in the Finger Lakes Region of New York, about a 20 minute drive southeast from downtown Rochester.
 
This article states that on March 20, the joint session of the Village and Town Boards of Victor voted to bring the issue of consolidating the two fire districts, Victor and Fishers, into a single fire district.  Since the two districts are already relying on each other for manpower and equipment, to the point where they purchase equipment together (such as their ATV's), the joint boards have put though the idea to consolidate the districts.  The other reason, in which the article points to, is that a single district would also level out the taxes that property owners are paying (where taxpayers in the Fishers district would see a slight decrease, and Victor would see a slight increase).  Leveling out the tax levy, according to Victor Fire Chief Sean McAdoo, puts more tax burden back onto the taxpayers of the Victor district, as they are currently receiving more services under the current mutual aid and equipment purchasing plans.
 
The Victor Fire Department is based in the heart of the Village of Victor.  The village is tight on space, houses the Victor Central School District, and is heavily congested with traffic along Main Street.  VFD also covers the Victor Fire Protection District, which surrounds the village in the south and west sides of the town.  These areas are generally residential, with multiple subdivisions in the west and some agriculture in the south.  VFD operates with a quint, engine, heavy rescue, brush truck, and two utilities.  The VFD is 100% volunteer staffing.  [http://victorfire.com]
 
The Fishers Fire Department operates out of two stations, covering the north and west sections of the Town of Victor.  Station 1 is in the west side, comprised of mostly residential, some industrial, and agriculture towards the southern end of the district.  Station 1 is also their headquarters, which houses a quint, engine, and heavy rescue.  Station 2 is at the north end, which is a heavy commercial/retail district, including Eastview Mall, the largest shopping center in the Rochester area.  Station 2 houses an engine, brush truck, and two utilities.  The FFD is a combination department with four career firefighters per platoon (four platoons), but relies heavily on volunteers.  I don't know off hand which apparatus they staff, but I believe it is the engine out of Station 1.  I have not talked to anyone within that organization in years, so my knowledge of the career staffing is a little lacking.  The FFD also covers a large section of the NYS Thruway.  [http://www.fishersfd.org]
 
In my honest opinion, the fact that these two districts have already been working together as a single unit through training, response, and equipment purchasing, it makes sense for them to consolidate into a single district.  Although only one of the district's taxpayers would benefit financially, it's better for these two districts to completely join forces to increase the benefit of emergency services to the people they protect.  This has been foreseen by many in the area, and the fact that it may actually become a reality is enlightening.
 
Maybe a trend will start out of this?

 
http://www.myrye.com/my_weblog/2017/04/letter.html

Agreed. Especially in area's where the volunteer turnout is dismal on a regular basis.  Westchester has changed over the past 40 years and many departments have failed to keep up with the times and its come home to roost.  The AHJ has an obligation to provide fire protection to its residents and if it means conversion from volunteer to combo or a fully career department, that's what is going to happen regardless of opinion.
 
My suggestion to fire commissioners/city managers would be when a member of your department appears before you to make a suggestion that they would feel improve recruitment/retention/participation that you give it serious consideration; the mindset should be how can we make it work as opposed to why it won't work.  A positive outlook usually works better then one of negative as people tend to support what they help to create, something I think many departments have forgotten over time.  Younger members bring enthusiasm, dedication and Ideas; the older members offer experience and wisdom; combine both and you have a chance to allow the fire departments mission statement to succeed. Just my opinion.

I think the writing is on the wall. Towns are learning that the volunteer dept. are not there anymore. Gone are the days of 300 active members and waiting lists. Little to no turn out at calls. False claims of "active" members when the 2% money comes. I'm all for Volunteerism and for helping out but westchester is not built for it anymore. As is said, blue collar folks can't make it here anymore. At some point everyone is gonna have to go career or suck it up, put on their big boy pants and consolidate the county. Lord know most guys want that anyway.

Agreed. Especially in area's where the volunteer turnout is dismal on a regular basis.  Westchester has changed over the past 40 years and many departments have failed to keep up with the times and its come home to roost.  The AHJ has an obligation to provide fire protection to its residents and if it means conversion from volunteer to combo or a fully career department, that's what is going to happen regardless of opinion.
 
My suggestion to fire commissioners/city managers would be when a member of your department appears before you to make a suggestion that they would feel improve recruitment/retention/participation that you give it serious consideration; the mindset should be how can we make it work as opposed to why it won't work.  A positive outlook usually works better then one of negative as people tend to support what they help to create, something I think many departments have forgotten over time.  Younger members bring enthusiasm, dedication and Ideas; the older members offer experience and wisdom; combine both and you have a chance to allow the fire departments mission statement to succeed. Just my opinion.

Agreed. Especially in area's where the volunteer turnout is dismal on a regular basis.  Westchester has changed over the past 40 years and many departments have failed to keep up with the times and its come home to roost.  The AHJ has an obligation to provide fire protection to its residents and if it means conversion from volunteer to combo or a fully career department, that's what is going to happen regardless of opinion.
 
My suggestion to fire commissioners/city managers would be when a member of your department appears before you to make a suggestion that they would feel improve recruitment/retention/participation that you give it serious consideration; the mindset should be how can we make it work as opposed to why it won't work.  A positive outlook usually works better then one of negative as people tend to support what they help to create, something I think many departments have forgotten over time.  Younger members bring enthusiasm, dedication and Ideas; the older members offer experience and wisdom; combine both and you have a chance to allow the fire departments mission statement to succeed. Just my opinion.

Agreed. Especially in area's where the volunteer turnout is dismal on a regular basis.  Westchester has changed over the past 40 years and many departments have failed to keep up with the times and its come home to roost.  The AHJ has an obligation to provide fire protection to its residents and if it means conversion from volunteer to combo or a fully career department, that's what is going to happen regardless of opinion.
 
My suggestion to fire commissioners/city managers would be when a member of your department appears before you to make a suggestion that they would feel improve recruitment/retention/participation that you give it serious consideration; the mindset should be how can we make it work as opposed to why it won't work.  A positive outlook usually works better then one of negative as people tend to support what they help to create, something I think many departments have forgotten over time.  Younger members bring enthusiasm, dedication and Ideas; the older members offer experience and wisdom; combine both and you have a chance to allow the fire departments mission statement to succeed. Just my opinion.

Regional approach, the only real answer

I would explain to the mayor and residents that the firefighters will do the possible; the impossible will just have to wait like it or not.

Let me dig it out and i'll burn a copy for you.

As long as the public know that firefighters will throw themselves into danger to do whatever is possible to get those human lives out of danger, nothing is going to change their mindset.  For the firefighters they are caught between a rock and a hard place; many of us took an oath to help save lives and property and if we know someone's life is in danger all the rules of OSHA and NFPA generally go out the window as opposed to standing around waiting for the minimum requirement of firefighters arrive on the scene.  The best thing I think we can do is to educate the public as to the importance of proper staffing and ideally change their mindset.  Most likely it'll be an uphill battle but you have to start somewhere.

As long as the public know that firefighters will throw themselves into danger to do whatever is possible to get those human lives out of danger, nothing is going to change their mindset.  For the firefighters they are caught between a rock and a hard place; many of us took an oath to help save lives and property and if we know someone's life is in danger all the rules of OSHA and NFPA generally go out the window as opposed to standing around waiting for the minimum requirement of firefighters arrive on the scene.  The best thing I think we can do is to educate the public as to the importance of proper staffing and ideally change their mindset.  Most likely it'll be an uphill battle but you have to start somewhere.

They can afford it, just that they hate to spend their money unless absolutely necessary.   

I'm sure if, God forbid, their house were on fire, I'd bet they'd want to make sure that all the first responders would hear the siren(s).  

I'm sure if, God forbid, their house were on fire, I'd bet they'd want to make sure that all the first responders would hear the siren(s).  

I'm sure if, God forbid, their house were on fire, I'd bet they'd want to make sure that all the first responders would hear the siren(s).