Paul J DeBartolomeo

Cogs, So what college or university are you going to draw these members from? Usually it is an acredited institution that offers Fire Tech as a curiculm. To the best of my knowledge the only school in the area that offers that is NCC and they dont have out of state students. I know your intentions are well intended as are mine, but may I remind you that about 12 years ago we, in the then Big 5, established a squad unit. It was to be manned by members of every dept 24/7 and respond to all assignments reporting smoke or fire. It was didbanded after about 2 weeks because it could no longer be manned, and that was when the Big 5 was alot stronger than it is today. In my opinion when you start asking members to spend 8 hours a day in the VOLUNTEER house several days a month it stops being a volunteer house and basically becomes a job, and alot of your membership just cant devote that kind of time. Believe me I am all for a managable solution but Im just pointing out some facts.

Cogs, you cant say you are sure anyone would meet their obligation's to respond without factual data to prove it. Listen, I have been a proud volunteer for almost 20 years, but I am also a realist. I know for a fact that volunteer companies struggle with manpower at times, especially during the day when many active members are at work. Why did Belltown and the other Big 5 houses hire drivers in the first place. To think that places can revert back to the way things use to be is crazy considering call volume has increased 10 times in the last 20 years. Volunteers in the city of Stamford cant afford to man a firehouse 24/7 if they are supporting a family and the off-duty IAFF members are put in a tough spot considering the current climate. I would love to see a amicable solution but it seems very difficult at this time.

Cogs, my point exactly, off-duty IAFF members are manning that station much of the time. Especially during the day when the vollies are at work, which I pesonally have no problem with. But I can see a conflict of interests developing with mutual aid responses as occurs in Stamford. While on that note what is the alarm assignment for a full box asignment in Belltown? I think it is a full SFRD assignment in addition to the BFD. I would say thats better than adequate coverage and doubt puplic safety is ever at risk.

I dont really want to weigh in on these issues because I have ties to both sides and as I have seen comments posted on this site can lead to repercussions in other settings. That being said, I read earlier in a post by Cogs a reference to the Kentland Fire Dept. I just have a question, because you hail their praises, which is a whole nother issue, who do you think is manning that station for the most part 24/7.

Truly unbelievable! The good thing is that we all agree that these guys look like morons. Take your job seriously and don your gear for every emergency. These guys conduct themselves in a very unprofessional manner. Stay Safe & Wear your Gear. Paul D.

Izzy, With sound technique and a little training and practice I think you will find that forcing this door conventionally is the quickest and most reliable way to go. I can tell you from experience that an outward opening door with simple panic hardware can be forced by 1 firefighter in about 30 seconds. The carpenter square is a good idea for investigation purposes, but at a fire I would revert to the Irons. As I stated earlier, what if the door has more than just a panic bar. What do you do then? How is a door unforcible depending on the frame? As was stated earlier, forcible entry is not becoming a lost art, the use of the Irons is becoming a lost art because guys are relying more heavily on the rabbit tool and power saws. I will say it again and again, with proper training, good technique, and a little practice these doors can be easily forced. I am all for alernatives, innovations, and thinking outside the box, but I firmly believe that we need to have a solid foundation in the most reliable means of entry that is conventional forcible entry. Good Topic, Stay Safe Comments Please!

Brothers, I think these ideas are certainly options but why not just force the door conventionally. Often times especially in commercial establishments the panic hardware is not the only locking device. Many times there are other types of locks engaged. So using these techniques may expose the panic bar, but you are still left to deal with other locks. With solid technique going conventionally is the way to go in my opinion. Good Topic Stay Safe Paul D

Brothers, Cant we all just get along? Lets meet for a beer and bury the hatchets.

Gary as many of the brothers have said so nicely you were one of the true greats the fire service has ever known. You instilled in me the importance of company pride and having a true love for what you do. A true senior man who was always the first to step up and set the example for us to follow. Thanks for taking me and the boys in when you did, we will never forget all the things you did for us and our careers. Rest In Peace now my Brother and know your memory will always hold a special place in my heart.

I guess I can trade in my set of Irons. Seems Chanel lock has re-invented Forcible Entry. LOL

This has been a great post by Moose and a great discussion by the brothers. We can all share and learn alot from one another when we keep the discussion constructive. As was pointed out by Sqd 47 try to get into some of the exposures and open the ceilings to check on fire spread. If that particular exposure has fire in the ceiling already go onto the next one. A neat trick I learned from the brothers in Detroit was to operate a line directly into the cockloft from inside an univolved exposure. They call this the Dutchtown technique, where they will pull ceilings in a clear exposure, climb on some furniture or use a small ladder, and actually operate the line from inside the cocloft. It sounds a bit hairy but they are able to attack the fire head on and cover a larger area side to side. As far as estimating the dimensions of an occupancy it comes from experience, knowledge of building construction,and getting out into your area. As far as the trench goes its primary use is to stop fire from extening into an uninvolved portion of your fire. As was stated by FF Nick you are basically writing off anything up until your trench. When done in NYC a line is ordered to the roof and placed on the univolved side of the fire to insure the fire does not cross the trench.

How deep do you guys think these buildings are? The reason I ask is because I keep hearing about a trench cut. These buildings are 50-75 feet deep. That means you need to cut 100-150 feet of roof 3 feet wide, not very practical on a taxpayer with limited manpower. A trench is most effective on an H type M.D. when trying to prevent fire spread from one wing to another. It is placed in close proximity of the opposite throat to limit the space of cutting. Proper roof operations at this fire would be several large vent holes. This fire has a strong hold on the cockloft, there is basicly fire everywhere, no real need for inspection holes. If you are not sure where to cut, cut in the rear of the store, that way all the fire, super heated gasses, and smoke are pushed away from the engine and out the hole as the line moves in.

I highly doubt that is a truss roof. That is a typical taxpayer not a strip mall. Not a bad idea to think about a trench somewhere down the line, but with what looks like limited manpower probably not going to be feasible. Some well placed large vent holes may have localized this fire and permitted an extinguishing effort with the use of large caliber streams.

Obvious right from the start of the video there was a well advanced fire in the cockloft. Smoke pushing from cracks in the mortar joints under pressure, and mainly concentrated in the upper regions of the store. 1 story commercials "Tax Payers" immeadiate roof operations. Cut holes A.S.A.P. I didnt see any indication of roof operatons whatsoever, no ground ladders or aerials visible in the video. That was a Tower Ladder job right from the get go. Set the bucket up right on the sidewalk and flow copious amounts of water directly into the cockloft. Very predictable outcome based on the amount of smoke and fire in the video, and the tactics implemented to combat it.

The Wars over Brothers!

There is a guy out of Boston who does good work on Leather helmets. He refirbed my work lid as well as several others. Im sure if you called him he could give you some advise on the paint job. Or you could send it to him, he is very reasonable with pricing. Send me a PM for his number if you like.

How many Cheifs is enough at an incident? When is it time to draw the line. There was some mention of the FDNY and there policies. Remember a few things, at an all hands fire there are only 2 B.C.'s and 1 D.C. assigned and they are dealing with upwards of 50 members. On the transmission of a 2nd alarm you do get added cheifs to fill specific functions, but as the fire progresses cheifs are often special called as needed with a specific assignment that needs to be filled. Maybe something that could be looked into around here. At any working incident or multiple have a set protocol of what needs to be covered right away and then fill in the rest on a special call basis if the incident escalates. Sounds like it could be a great workshop or lecture series some time in the future. As always just my thoughts, good discussion with many good points of view.

I agree with all of the above, the johnny bar does look like a p.o.s. Probably made by someone who has never forced a door. As for the TNT we carry one on our rig and the Chauffer carries it with a halligan. I agree it is pretty heavy and not very practical for pulling ceilings, we use it for its added weight in forcing project doors but thats not to say a sledge hammer would work just the same. I guess everything has its applications.

Is critiquing a fire considered airing of dirty laundry? I have done it on here in the past to stimulate some debate, and get the brothers thoughts on different tactics and the ration of you know what I got was harsh. Am I bashing an individual or organization if I disagree with there tactics?

I agree with oneeyemedic. I made some constructive comments about tactical decisions at a recent fire, and I later heard about it from some people. My intentions were not to bash anyone, simply to point out some things that could have been done differently. Unfortunately those in power took it as a personal attack and accused me of airing out dept laundry. I was simply adding to the constructive discussion that was taking place, but it seems that once you disagree with authority you become the bad guy. I quess some people can handle constructive critisism.

Good video with a great outcome. Hats off to those brothers, thier training paid off.

To AJSBear you site 2 incidents within the FDNY where better judgement was clouded by alcohol and the outcome was a severe black eye to the entire department. What you fail to point out is the penalties that followed to all parties involved. Terminations, transfers, suspensions and loss of pay. That is what EFD stated in his post that altough these things do occasionally go on in career depts, there is swift and severe punishment that often discourages such behavior. Guys on every level whether career or volly want to be reffered to as professionals, Ive seen 2 videos this week that I would say are far from professional. The fire service is known as a para-military organization which means its members are held to a certain standard, and are expected to act accordingly. It just seems in many places career or volly the self discipline of the members and the enforcment of superiors has gone by the way side. As always its JMO and Im not bashing anyone, I know there are some members on here with onion skin.

If you watch closely you see the camera pan down to an empty jump seat at the begining of the video, so the rig does not seem that full to me. With all the screming and hollering heard on the video it seems like a bunch of BUFFS taking a jot ride in my opinion.

Ladder Co. 28 4054 Runs for 2007

Only booger would be aware of that bit of history...BUB